Speaking of Radiance, I'm looking over what the AP says about it in the 1st book. It says the weapon has two uses of legendary power but does not currently have any. Is that still true still up to and including this book? Or did I miss it somewhere?
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but does not currently possess any legendary attributes, for it has yet to be wielded by a mythic paladin.
It also states that it bonds with the paladin that wields it during their ascension fight.
I would say that it has the legendary surge ability prior to that fight, and then afterwards bonds and has the normal abilities of a legendary item afterwards, but limited to the upgradability unless the Paladin takes Legendary Item path and starts upgrading it.
Creative Director
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Unless you have two paladins in the party, it's going to likely be donated or the upgrade will be lost as another party member claims it. The Armor of the Pious is kinda better for mythic players.
That's a good option. Another is to simply have Radiance's wielder simply recognize the armor for what it is and to know what to do with it automatically.
Thanks for the info, Dragios. Hmmm, makes me wonder if I shouldn't keep back that Armor of the Pious until part three, instead of part two... it fits way better with Radiance than some random mithril full plate.
Although then the other players might begin to complain that the Paladin is getting all the free goodies. ^^
...except it isn't random mythril full plate. Did you actually read that section? It mentions directly that it is a specific full plate that belonged to someone quite relevant to both Radiance and the adventure path itself.
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It does mention it, however there isn't any specific text on how to clue to party in to that fact. No IC inventory sheet of 'dead Paladin armor. Needs Radiance to complete collection.'
Which is why we were discussing ways to draw player attention to it being a specific set of armor instead of 'Hey, here's some very nice heavy armor.'
<sigh> It is just a Mithral Full Plate which had a famous owner. Yes, I did read that section before posting, thank you.
While it is cool enough by itself, an Armor of the Pious is an even better fit for a Paladin of Iomedae (whom I have in my group) and the problem here is there already is one such in the second adventure.
So the question becomes, do I force the player to choose between the cool special armor and the (more effective) "normal" full plate or do I change the treasure placement in such a way that he discovers this armor in part two and the Armor of the Pious in part three (the latter of which would logically have belonged to Yaniel), making it a question to give up some power for the cool RP armor. And getting significant offense power back with Radiance's upgrade.
Since I have to place some additional treasure for my six player group anyway, it sounds highly tempting to exchange the two armors between the two modules.
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Honestly, since you can kick the AC of the Armor of the Pious up by +2 for 10 rounds, it's not even horribly beaten out by the 'normal' magical armor you find.
Yaniel's actual armor does have the symbol of Iomedae on it, but specifically so does the Armor of the Pious until someone of a different religion wears it.
Considering I think Yaniel was a Tier 1 Mythic paladin (which is why Radiance is a legendary item), the Armor of the Pious that improves a mythic character works better for her as well.
magnus, I'd say swap them and I'm actually debating doing so now. Thankfully while I have two Paladins of Iomedae in my party, one is a MLP pony (don't ask), so I'm just going to have the Barding of Pleated Light sent from Nerosyan forward with a few caveats for the player.
Yeah, that's my train of thought, too, Lochar. :)
That wasn't asking. That was pointing out.
However.... http://www.sluggy.com/comics/archives/daily/020419 (final panel)
LOL Back on topic...
Character Traits
To be clear:
So for the character with the Exposed to Awfulness trait, does the PC and Marhevok share a bloodline with Jerribeth? And all it took was an attack by a demon to bring it to the forefront? If that's the case, then I hope it's explained a little more in the fourth book. My players will want to know.
For the campaigns without a PC who has taken Child of the Crusade trait, are people ignoring that particular trait quest? I'm thinking that Irabeth just sends them out to investigate a site where some mighty champions of previous crusades fell.
And Jerribeth herself counts as a mythic trial for a PC who does NOT have any campaign traits? Is that correct?
As for the suit of the Pious vs. the +3 mithril armor, I'd say leave them where they are for the time being. The reason I say that is because I'm sure more about Yaniel will be revealed and there might be a good reason why that armor is there.
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Creative Director
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LOL Back on topic...
Character Traits
To be clear:
** spoiler omitted **As for the suit of the Pious vs. the +3 mithril armor, I'd say leave them where they are for the time being. The reason I say that is because I'm sure more about Yaniel will be revealed and there might be a good reason why that armor is there.
Regarding the spoiler topic...
The adventure assumes that the PCs have enough encounters to gain enough XP, so if you don't run a particular set of encounters, the PCs will miss out on that XP, so you should make sure to replace those opportunities to gain XP if they're running behind.
And yes... if a PC doesn't have a campaign trait, defeating Jerribeth is the stand-in trial for that character. Or, at your option, something else—the point is that if a PC doesn't have a campaign trait, he SHOULD NOT be penalized by being one trial behind those who do.
As for Yaniel...
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Child of the Crusade, since I don't have one of those in the party I'm running, will be a small group of paladins that Irabeth sent out. They've returned with two of their members under the Curse of the Unburied and one dead from trying to fulfill the request. If you really want to make it fun, pick one of the combat oriented NPCs and have them be cursed as well to make the PCs pick up the pace.
Irabeth needs the party to solve the issue.
And yes, Jerribeth counts only for people without a mythic campaign trait. Or you could make her the Exposed to Awfulness trial, with the Wintersuns just being the warmup and information source.
LOL Back on topic...
Character Traits
To be clear:
** spoiler omitted **As for the suit of the Pious vs. the +3 mithril armor, I'd say leave them where they are for the time being. The reason I say that is because I'm sure more about Yaniel will be revealed and there might be a good reason why that armor is there.
Regarding the spoiler topic...
** spoiler omitted **
As for Yaniel... ** spoiler omitted **
Thanks Mr. Jacobs
Here's a question for everyone to give thoughts on. Obviously this adventure gives a paladin some REALLY cool stuff. I think it was an inspired idea to have Radiance grow the way it does throughout the AP. But other PCs may feel left out that the paladin gets all the goodies. What about a magic item that grows with each individual PC as the AP goes on. For example, a staff of life that becomes legendary for an oracle with the touch of divinity trait or a headband of mental superiority that can counter summon demons or get past demonic resistances for a Riftwarden Orphan sorcerer? Basically have a legendary item keyed to 1 campaign trait. Do you think if EVERY PC had an item like that it would make the AP too easy. I haven't started running this AP yet so I would like some feedback before I do that.
Radiance is special because it is tied to in game lore, not a mythic trait.
Mythic gives you the option of making a legendary item of your own. Think for a while if you want to hand off more freebies that they can pick up if they want to.
Good point. Thanks
Should I be nervous that the thread discussing an invasion of the demon infested Worldwound turned into a big old Brony fest?
Not really, pony-fics have been known to go into dark territory. Fallout: Equestria's the premier example of this. You've got a rogue, a cleric, a gunslinger, a paladin, and a monk trekking through a wasteland fighting depraved marauders, radioactive zombies, mad-science leftovers, and high-tech fascists. You'll know how nasty chaotic evil can get by chapter 3 of 45.
Agreed.
It looks awesome. I'm getting a Kingmaker vibe from it, as in: Freeroam, exploration, player driven etc. With some very cool stuff I can't wait to put my players through!I'm glad that the Campaign traits are fully utilized and not just background stuff, forgotten after the first installment of the AP.
Wrath of the Righteous is shaping up to be a very varied and exellent AP.
defiantly! which is great for me as a DM cause i wanted to run King maker sometime. this will be a good way to find out if it'll work with my group
Here's a question for everyone to give thoughts on. Obviously this adventure gives a paladin some REALLY cool stuff. I think it was an inspired idea to have Radiance grow the way it does throughout the AP. But other PCs may feel left out that the paladin gets all the goodies. What about a magic item that grows with each individual PC as the AP goes on. For example, a staff of life that becomes legendary for an oracle with the touch of divinity trait or a headband of mental superiority that can counter summon demons or get past demonic resistances for a Riftwarden Orphan sorcerer? Basically have a legendary item keyed to 1 campaign trait. Do you think if EVERY PC had an item like that it would make the AP too easy. I haven't started running this AP yet so I would like some feedback before I do that.
There are some really cool pally loot in this AP, sadly every other class has to make due with normal "boring" loot.
Something I forsee being a problem, so I'm going to add/replace some stuff for my other players.
I think that the main reason for this is because, unlike the Paladin which has the Holy Avenger, there's not really a single item that is strictly for Fighters, or Wizards, or Rogues, or Oracles, or Magi, or whatever else have you.
My plan was to actually take a bit of a leaf through the old 3.5 resource Weapons of Legacy, and use that as inspiration for a signature weapon or armour for each of my other non-Paladin PCs (for me, personally, I have an Oracle, a likely Ranger, and either a Wizard or Druid - the last player hasn't quite decided yet). I'll then seed these items through the first adventure and like Radiance these too will grow over time into weapons and armor worthy of the Mythic legends that wield and wear them.
I think that the main reason for this is because, unlike the Paladin which has the Holy Avenger, there's not really a single item that is strictly for Fighters, or Wizards, or Rogues, or Oracles, or Magi, or whatever else have you.
My plan was to actually take a bit of a leaf through the old 3.5 resource Weapons of Legacy, and use that as inspiration for a signature weapon or armour for each of my other non-Paladin PCs (for me, personally, I have an Oracle, a likely Ranger, and either a Wizard or Druid - the last player hasn't quite decided yet). I'll then seed these items through the first adventure and like Radiance these too will grow over time into weapons and armor worthy of the Mythic legends that wield and wear them.
I'm actually going to wait until the end of the AP comes out. That way ill know whether that will unbalance the game or not.
Trust me... we give out plenty of items that are good for clerics and wizards and rogues and all the rest.
Wrath of the Righteous is many things, but stingy on the magic items is not one of them.
Fair enough :) I will trust the grand T-rex in regards to the magic items. I was just thinking more along the lines of the actually story/progression of the weapon for the non-Paladin PCs - but I've also just thought of the line from The Incredibles about how when everyone is special then no-one will be. So I might leave it as the Paladin having the story-based weapon, and revisit my idea later down the track with another game instead :)
Should I be nervous that the thread discussing an invasion of the demon infested Worldwound turned into a big old Brony fest?
what does my little pony have to do with pathfinder?
Here's a question for everyone to give thoughts on. Obviously this adventure gives a paladin some REALLY cool stuff. I think it was an inspired idea to have Radiance grow the way it does throughout the AP. But other PCs may feel left out that the paladin gets all the goodies. What about a magic item that grows with each individual PC as the AP goes on. For example, a staff of life that becomes legendary for an oracle with the touch of divinity trait or a headband of mental superiority that can counter summon demons or get past demonic resistances for a Riftwarden Orphan sorcerer? Basically have a legendary item keyed to 1 campaign trait. Do you think if EVERY PC had an item like that it would make the AP too easy. I haven't started running this AP yet so I would like some feedback before I do that.There are some really cool pally loot in this AP, sadly every other class has to make due with normal "boring" loot.
Something I forsee being a problem, so I'm going to add/replace some stuff for my other players.
to be fair to the Adventure Path crew, Radiance is the first Holy Avenger i have seen in any Adventure Path, and if any AP screams for one its this one!
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Creative Director
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As a general question about mythic play - I know that mythic tiers increase the appropriate challenge rating of encounters to present a challenge to the party. They are tougher, so need tougher encounters. In general, should mythic tiers alter wealth by level in a manner similar to how they impact challenge ratings? Or is this perhaps just a feature of this adventure path?
That's up to you. For Wrath of the Righteous, we're deliberately increasing the amount simply to make the PCs even more powerful... since some of the encounters they'll be facing will truly test even a mythic party.
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So, since the new ACG playtest just started, I decided to experiment a little by rewriting the Wintersun chieftain as the abyssal Bloodrager his stats seem to suggest he is. Mr. Groves, if you are reading this - what are your thoughts on Wintersun as a bloodrager? it seems like a neat fit for his rather unique background and fluff, I'd say.
Anyho, here are the reworked stats:
Marhevok Grunhuld-Wintersun
Bloodrager (abyssal) 11
speed: 40 ft. initiative: +2 Senses: perception +13
HP: 126 AC: 18 (touch 10, flat footed 17) Saves: FORT +12, WILL +7, REF +7
CMB: +20 CMD: 31
Defensive abilities: improved uncanny dodge, DR 2/-, resist fire, cold and acid 5
Attacks: flaming claws + 19/+16/+11/+6 (2d6 + 14 +1d6 fire, 19-20/*2). Haste adds another +16 attack if taking a full attack action!
Special attacks: greater bloodrage (26 rounds/day), bloodrage powers (claws, demonic bulk, demon resistence)
Spells: (bloodline spells marked with *)
1st level (DC: 12, 3/day): enlarge person, jump, magic missile, shield, burning hands, cause fear*
2nd level (DC: 13, 1/day): burning gaze, pyrotechnics, darkness, levitate, bull's strength*
3rd level (DC:14, 1/day): haste, wind wall, arcane sight
Tactics: assume he casts shield before combat, and haste on the first round in addition to raging. Haste already calculated into stats, as are shield and all the bloodrage powers. Can use darkness to confuse.
Gear: amulet of natural armor +1, bracers of armor +3, decanter of endless water, ring of protection +1, unholy symbol of baphomet with an inscription in abyssal that reads "Jerribeth".
Special qualities: fast movement, blood casting
Feats: toughness, power attack, dodge, lightning reflexes, intimidating prowess, improved critical (claw), furious focus, iron will, dreadful carnage
Ability scores: STR 26, CON 20, DEX 12, WIS 8, INT 10, Cha 13
There's a lot going on with this stat block, and the numbers are going to be quite hard to figure out exactly if someone is looking for mistakes... I might have made an error somewhere, I guess. In case someone noticed, yes, I bumped his charisma by 1 to enable casting a 3rd level spell. Given that mostly Iv'e not been optimizing the stat block at all, choosing to go for a representation of the kind of powers I think the character should have (burning gaze) rather than the best options available, I think the +1 to charisma does not break the encounter or anything.
All in all seems like this version is much more of a glass cannon, having a ridiculously low armor class and about 30 less HP, but with a considerably higher damage output, along with a trick or two that players might not expect (like casting darkness, having a reach of 10 ft, or maybe even using dreadful carnage to break the moral of a PC, or maybe casting enlarge person on a minion, though that seems like a waste of time better spent clawing a PC to death).
Also, I'm not 100% sure I got the entire claw attack thing right - I just treated it like granting an additional attack with the highest attack bonus (with furious focus only applying for the first attack). Is that correct?
Hope this is useful - it sure was fun to make!
So, since the new ACG playtest just started, I decided to experiment a little by rewriting the Wintersun chieftain as the abyssal Bloodrager his stats seem to suggest he is. Mr. Groves, if you are reading this - what are your thoughts on Wintersun as a bloodrager? it seems like a neat fit for his rather unique background and fluff, I'd say.
Anyho, here are the reworked stats:
** spoiler omitted **...
Furious Focus would have no effect on attacks made with claws. Furious Focus explicitly only benefits made with a two-handed weapon; claws, by dint of being natural weapons, are definitionally light weapons. The cool thing about natural weapons is that all natural weapon attacks are made at the same BAB. If you have 2 claws, you can attack once with both at your highest BAB, or you can make your full iterative attacks with a one-handed weapon, plus a claw attack at your highest BAB-5. If focused entirely on natural weapons, the ideal is to get as many different natural attacks as possible.
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Furious Focus would have no effect on attacks made with claws. Furious Focus explicitly only benefits made with a two-handed weapon; claws, by dint of being natural weapons, are definitionally light weapons. The cool thing about natural weapons is that all natural weapon attacks are made at the same BAB. If you have 2 claws, you can attack once with both at your highest BAB, or you can make your full iterative attacks with a one-handed weapon, plus a claw attack at your highest BAB-5. If focused entirely on natural weapons, the ideal is to get as many different natural attacks as possible.So, since the new ACG playtest just started, I decided to experiment a little by rewriting the Wintersun chieftain as the abyssal Bloodrager his stats seem to suggest he is. Mr. Groves, if you are reading this - what are your thoughts on Wintersun as a bloodrager? it seems like a neat fit for his rather unique background and fluff, I'd say.
Anyho, here are the reworked stats:
** spoiler omitted **...
OK, thanks for pointing that out. So maybe I should swap furious focus for a two weapon fighting feat, to make the attack with the extra claw more likely to hit? or does that not work?
Natural attacks work on an entirely different model from iterative attacks.
By example:
Let's assume our 2nd level barbarian has 20 strength while enraged, the TWF feat, and a pair of light weapons. When he makes a full attack, his attack sequence looks like this: BAB +2, Strength +5, -2 for Two Weapon Fighting=+5/+5. Also, if he doesn't have the Double Slice feat, he only gets 1/2 his strength bonus on the second attack.
If the same barbarian has 2 claws, instead, then his attack sequence is one attack with each claw at full BAB--+7/+7, dealing full strength damage with each. If he then also had the Toothy feat to give him a bite attack, his attack sequence would be Bite +7, 2 claws +7/+7, all doing full strength damage. Alternately, he could wield a sword as his primary weapons, turning his natural attacks secondary. Then, he could attack at +7 with his sword, +2 with one claw, and +2 with his bite.
Lord Snow,
Just saw your post but it is is midnight here. I'll comment tomorrow!
(I ramble and miss out words and cite wrong mechanics when I'm sleepy)
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I tend to agree with Magnuskn that the Vang fight seems a little odd. He seems to have been created with the intent to give the party a significant challenge (hence the round-by-round tactics and PC level wealth) but it seems like the devs made some choices during design that deliberately left him extremely vulnerable in many areas.
His SR from his robe is HILARIOUSLY outgunned at that level. His stats are designed to keep his INT from being too high (Keeping DC's lower than thy might otherwise be), and his feat selection is purposely littered with crafting feats that are made obsolete by a single mythic path ability. Finally, his tactics seem to leave him exposed on the first (and most critical) round of combat. Swift action Greater Invisibility, Move action fly to the ceiling, Standard Action Disintegrate on someone who likely has no hope of reaching his position and will probably pass the save? That pinpoints his location to an opposing spellcaster for an easy Quickened Glitterdust, followed by a Greater Dispel Magic to strip him of his defensive abilities and his flight.
I can totally get behind the idea that Paizo developed this for the lowest common denominator. It can't be horribly brutal or most people won't play. I don't fault them for this, but my group will shred those tactics and exploit those weaknesses without thinking about it. You don't even have to be super optimized to do so, you just need to understand tactics and work together.
With that in mind, I am looking for some input on how to adjust tactics and abilities a little in order to make the fight more challenging, but not make it an impossible fight against a hopelessly overpowered opponent.
The weak points in his build as I see them are:
-Stats are allocated poorly.
-Feat selection is terrible considering the crafting path ability replaces all of those feats.
-Initiative is VERY low for Mythic play. He will be going dead last.
-The robe is cool looking, but also very sub-par. The SR is pointlessly low for a caster of that level. The armor is much lower than the Enduring Armor path ability, and the saves are more easily acquired by making a Cloak of Resistance +4 for a lot less money.
-The Rod of Withering is pretty much useless. Anything other than a frontline melee is not going to get hit with his terrible touch attack, and most frontline melees will pass the save with no issue then cut him in half the following round. He shouldn't be anywhere near combat.
I'm considering bumping him up to 6th tier, ditching the crafting feats for Mythic Crafting, and re-assigning his racial bonus from Dex to Int. Then I'll probably adjust his gear to be a more effective use of his wealth. Enduring Armor, Mirror Dodge and a more interesting feat selection would definitely make his build a bit more dynamic and durable.
For his tactics, I'm thinking I will swap his order of operations on round 1 to open with Disintegrate on the party spellcaster, then swift action Greater Invisibility followed by moving to whevever he wants. Then round 2 should lead off with Cloudkill followed by a swift Spiked Pit below the Paladin to knock him out of the fight. That leaves him with a rogue type (being re-created after an unfortunate death last session - see obituary thread) and a second melee frontliner that can fly to deal with.
I'm not worried about killing people. I have a strict "BBEG'S do not pull punches" rule that my players know about and are comfortable with, but just as I don't want the fight to be a cakewalk over in one round with a simple spell I would also rather the fight not completely curbstomp my players.
Do you think the above adjustments are too harsh? Too lenient? Just right?
Too lenient, but then I seem to have picked up a reputation for having horribly twinked out players. Which would surprise a lot of them, I can assure you. :p
Anyway, at least one of my players seems to want to take the Flexible Counterspell path ability from the Archmage and that alone will probably cripple Vangs entire tactics block from the start. Not sure on how to counter that yet, which is depressing me already a bit.
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Honestly, if Vang's had even a single whisper of warning from his Adepts. I would have him grab the retriever controls while he waits. When combat starts, Quicken invis and teleport/dimensional step to them. Direct the retrievers to kill them.
Start summoning.
Limited Wish (from scroll) a sirocco onto them.
Get Mythic Telekinesis going and start pinning the caster as a move action.
He and the retrievers are immune to poison. Drop the cloud kill for them to walk through.
He's got perfect knowledge of the place. Don't keep him locked into that one little room.
Beyond working with what he's got, if you're looking to boost him, swap out one(or more) of his Craft Feats for Improved Init and bump him up a tier and give him Mythic Improved Init. That'd give him an Init of 34.
Swap out reverse scrying path and Mythic Toughness (boo hoo, 12 HP) for Dual Path Heirophant and Mighty Summons. Then start pushing his mythic power to putting the Mythic Savage template on shadow demons. Pounce feral savagery extra attack stacking bleed(1).
Also the fact several of his lackies (should they survive initial encounters) do retreat to help him. It's not like he would be fighting alone, nor should he, most times.
Thanks for the tips. Still not sure on how to counter Flexible Counterspell (and the additional Spellbane Counterstrike to charge any counterspelled caster... this happens to be the party Cleric, who, being one one of the two very rules-savvy players, latched onto the Archmage path despite being a divine caster).
I just hate the action-denial playstyle, it tends to make a lot of opponents who otherwise would be interesting into total jokes.
Don't forget that Paizo already did a correction to Mythic - the Archmage Tier does NOT get Swift spells for its spellcasting abilities.
Which is why I suggest both getting out of there and also trying to invis as a quickened action first. He'll take the bait to immediate action counter and then he won't be able to counter the teleport.
I'll look it up when I'll get to point of prepping the combat (that's months away still, though). Thanks. :)
Don't forget that Paizo already did a correction to Mythic - the Archmage Tier does NOT get Swift spells for its spellcasting abilities.
Hm, how exactly is that worded? Could you point me towards that ruling? It doesn't seem to be a FAQ entry so far I could see.