I see "Pathfinder Modern" mentioned in a few threads from time to time.
Other than a modern campaign setting, I don't understand what rules you need to play in a 'modern' setting that aren't already presented.
Sure, you'd have to change Gold Pieces to 'credits' or dollars or something, a few other changes like that ...
I am NOT trying to start a flamewar and I'm NOT against a 'Pathfinder Modern' rulebook, I don't understand what would be significantly different from the rules as currently presented.
I'm asking "What would be so different in 'Pathfinder Modern' that you'd need a rulebook for it?"
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There would have to be skill changes of course, and I wouldn't mind better firearm rules. I think you're correct that much of the core rules stuff wouldn't change much. Though in a setting in which magic healing doesn't exist, you do have to wonder about HP recovery.
Though I'm a grognard who still likes the old Spycraft 1.0 rules for my modern stuff, so I'm not really on the market for any such rules set.
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Well translating Gold to some kind of modern currency is one thing, but there is much much more to it then that.
There is an underlying assumption of mideval culture and technology in the pathfinder ruleset. You would need modern equivalents for those. The feats and equipement are all mideval and for many of those you would have to handle that. Armor is not a ubiquetous piece of equipement any more, and firearms change the very nature of combat. All of that would need to be handled. Then there are vehicles, comminication, skill changes to account for modern technology (use compute and mechanics for instance).
Then there is the question of how does magic fit into the modern world. Does it fit at all? Things like the 'medic' or 'doctor' dont work with the mechanics of 'cleric'. So you need rules on triage, surgery, etc. Are there wizards? How does that work in a modern setting? If we are talking urban fantasy usually theres all sorts of interactions between magic and modern technology.
Also some classes would need to be changed or replaced. Rogue might work for thief, but it doesnt work for tech specialist, engineer, etc. Monk is probably fine, but what about barbarian? Druid? Inquisitor? Alchemist?
Basically its a whole new ruleset, you can check oud the d20 modern srd for an example if you are curious.
The visual of an Ogre surviving a million arrows shot into him by a trained archer is unrealistic, but you can still picture it, and rationalize it in your mind(oh, his skin is blubbery and tough, etc etc).
But the visual of an Ogre surviving a German WW2 machine gun ripping into him is really hard to picture. Not just surviving, but actually being able to stand and being able to fight and kill you just because he's got two hitpoints left, that is difficult to rationalize in your head. Or at least it is in mine.
That's why the current rules for Pathfinder, they'd be tricky to implement for a modern day setting. That's how I feel, at least.
We see horror/sf/fantasy movies all the time with critters being rather resistant to gunfire. I don't really see it as a huge strain in credulity myself, but that's really a matter of personal taste.
If you want an idea of what needs to be altered, try comparing WotC's d20 Modern srd with the 3.5 SRD.
A lot of things need to be reworked, see?
That comparison assumes that WotC's modern line was actually a good implementation of a modern setting in d20. I happen to think it was fairly poor.
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I think the idea is more along the lines of taking the same approach that Pathfinder took to revamping 3.5 OGL stuff and building on it and doing the same with the d20 Modern game more then just making a Modern version of Pathfinder.
Modern was...interesting. If it'd gotten a bit more support and a few things weren't so out of whack (the wealth system comes to mind) it could have been better then it was. d20 Future was fun but tried to cover like every possible science fiction trope possible. Giant robots, huge space fleet battles, time travel. It was not a very large book.
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Two things D20 modern did that were nice:
Classes were generalized to be more about your role, less about your specific job.
Money was dropped for an abstract system that assumed a culture of abundanc. It works well for a modern or future setting set in a developed culture. For area that was post apocalyptic, it was very bad. (Also, it could have used some better scaling in the wealth costs of some items, but otherwise it was the start of a very nice system, that I would rather see revised and expanded and improved.)
Two things D20 modern did that were nice:
Classes were generalized to be more about your role, less about your specific job.
Money was dropped for an abstract system that assumed a culture of abundanc. It works well for a modern or future setting set in a developed culture. For area that was post apocalyptic, it was very bad. (Also, it could have used some better scaling in the wealth costs of some items, but otherwise it was the start of a very nice system, that I would rather see revised and expanded and improved.)
The abstract currency system also kept the players from exploiting the system. when you got to higher levels a master spy could rob a bank without breaking a sweat. Heroes would take down dirty Billionairs with ease. If you used a hard currency then it wouldn't be long before the whole party was decked out in the best the US Military could make on their own private Island.
Using the D20 Modern system... Robing a bank didn't add anything to your wealth score unless the DM decided to up your rank by 1. Was it realistic... not really. Was it more balanced... Yes.
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The visual of an Ogre surviving a million arrows shot into him by a trained archer is unrealistic, but you can still picture it, and rationalize it in your mind(oh, his skin is blubbery and tough, etc etc).
But the visual of an Ogre surviving a German WW2 machine gun ripping into him is really hard to picture. Not just surviving, but actually being able to stand and being able to fight and kill you just because he's got two hitpoints left, that is difficult to rationalize in your head. Or at least it is in mine.
That's why the current rules for Pathfinder, they'd be tricky to implement for a modern day setting. That's how I feel, at least.
Killer7. The wrestler guy headbutts a daggum bullet. I could see that kind of thing in a modern setting.
Though, yeah, I'd personally tend to make it a hit point/wound point mechanic rather than a straight up hit point mechanic. But I could also see hit points working, if someone wanted it to.
Am I being too simple when I say a new ruleset would be needed to account for the technological difference between "current day" Golarion and 2013+ Earth?
That seems to be the crux of the reasoning.
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healing was awful in d20modern though unless you swap out hp for a vp/wp system. I loved the base class advanced class system though. In the modern setting very few people are dedicated to one class. You are expected to multiclass and dip. It was a great system that allowed for playing all sorts of games. We used it for a Grand Theft Auto game and a Zombieland game.
I've used Game Room Creations' Modern Path to some extent, and I've also run and played in several D20 Modern campaigns. Unlike some others here, I enjoy the system, but it's nowhere near as robust as Pathfinder, and finding a niche for your character is harder since you're not necessarily fit into the same roles as PF parties.
Note that D20 Modern, and Modern Path by extension (which takes a lot from D20 modern rules) is NOT intended to be a realistic rules set. It's meant to mimic cinematic action. If you can't imagine someone getting shot and continuing to fight on, you haven't seen roughly 80% of hollywood action movies.
Thanks for all the great responses.
I see what you are talking about now. I suppose I'd never really given it any thought. On the surface, I just assumed using the PF rules in a modern setting wouldn't be a huge deal.
I've skimmed through D20 Modern (when it first came out), but never really gave it a fair once-over. When I do modern play, I use the M&M ruleset - whether I'm using Supers or not.
M&M is not a bad rules set for doing modern, or anything else really. I always have to tweak the way damage works using the Mastermind Manual's alternate rules, but that's just a preference.
I have run created modern/future type characters using Pathfinder itself; it CAN be done. You need to be willing to tweak some of the class abilities, and maybe pull some Feats from D20 Modern, but it can work.
I had been thinking of trying M&M for a more modern game, supers or not. I'll keep this in mind going forward.
Also, very good thoughts all around on the subject.
Am I being too simple when I say a new ruleset would be needed to account for the technological difference between "current day" Golarion and 2013+ Earth?
That seems to be the crux of the reasoning.
Its not just tech, but thats a big part of it. Its the kind of story being told. Like lincoln hills said, the means by which things are dealt with in a typical fantasy story would lead everyone in jail or dead at the end in the modern world. Just the litigous nature of the modern world would make it impossoble for pc's to manage unless they steped into the comic book super heroes tropes of masked identities and conflict with local authorities.
Modern games i've played in are usually more about espianage, law enforcement, or possibly being an elite military squad. The usual band of murder hobos that is a typical adventuring party doesnt work in a modern setting.
The usual band of murder hobos that is a typical adventuring party doesnt work in a modern setting.
I guess that depends on your definition of modern. Indiana Jones and crew seemed to do okay with it. There are many places in the world today where you could still pull off such a plot due to political unrest, lawlessness, etc. Yeah, you can't pull it off in 2013 NYC, but there are places in the world, or near modern eras, where it is much more believable.
I run a Pulp campaign, and given the genre, we tend not to worry too much about repercussions. Yes, they do come in once in a while, but shootouts are not at all uncommon in the genre, and bodies are often left littering the place.
It just depends on the tone you want in your game.
I run a Pulp campaign, and given the genre, we tend not to worry too much about repercussions. Yes, they do come in once in a while, but shootouts are not at all uncommon in the genre, and bodies are often left littering the place.
It just depends on the tone you want in your game.
Absolutely, which is one of the challenges of a 'modern' game. Some people will want james bond, some will want indiana jones, and some will want die hard, some will want the dresden files. A good modern game has to be ready to handle all of those and more.
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healing was awful in d20modern though unless you swap out hp for a vp/wp system. I loved the base class advanced class system though. In the modern setting very few people are dedicated to one class. You are expected to multiclass and dip. It was a great system that allowed for playing all sorts of games. We used it for a Grand Theft Auto game and a Zombieland game.
Yeah, but short of magic or sci fi, healing is aweful in modern life.
... or action movies, where a hero can take a bullet or five and pretty much function at normal levels.
In my limited experience with modern settings, I've found that point systems(not sure the actual name) like Shadowrun or WoD work better than d20 based ones. I can't put my finger on exactly why, but they just felt more smooth and handled modern obstacles better. When we used d20 Modern, we were still kind of in "D&D mode."
One of the reasons I use the old Spycraft system for my Pulp game is the wounds/vitality which does a nice job of keeping the healing demands to a minimum. Vitality comes back by the hour, so unless someone gets past all their vitality (or gets critted), they can likely heal up between combats or encounters depending on how rushed they are.
I also like the half action and action dice rules as well.