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Does a 1HD (evil) tiefling register to a paladin's detect evil? Detect evil normally doesn't work on low-HD people, unless clerics, antipaladins, undead, and outsiders. Tieflings are outsiders, but they are native outsiders. Does this affect DE?
EDIT: Should be noted, a non-evil tiefling wouldn't ever detect. It comes from their actual alignment, not their heritage. So it seems to me it should work as it does with anybody else.
The question effectively becomes does an evil 1HD tiefling fall under the "aligned creature" or "aligned outsider" category.
I would it falls under "aligned outsider" because it is an outsider. Though there is a bit of wiggle room here to see it otherwise.
Tieflings despite their origin, do NOT posess the evil subtype. so no they would not.
Disagree. There is a difference between an Evil subtype (which effectively can't be non-evil alignment) and an alignment of evil. So a 1+ HD evil tiefling would detect as evil.
We know how aligned creatures work (must be 5HD).
We know how aligned outsiders work (even less then 1HD is detected).
The question is how a native outsider is treated. By RAW it seems to indicate they are treated as an outsider (b/c I'm not seeing anything that says otherwise, please, point it out to me, I find this silly.) By common sense I find that hard to agree w/, but common sense does not always line up w/ RAW...
EDIT: Also, common sense is subjective at times...
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Detectable outsiders are so because as demons or devils, daeomns etc... they posess the evil subtype.
According to...?
Tieflings do not. Check the racial description on the Tiefling and show me where it says they posess the evil subtype. If you can, then you've settled this thread.
No one is trying to claim that tieflings have the evil subtype. Honestly, I'm not even sure why you're bringing it up. Everyone here knows they don't have the evil subtype.
No they would not. Detect Evil detects evil AURAS not alignment. A 1 hd non-cleric evil tiefling would not detect as evil any more than a Human would.Tieflings despite their origin, do NOT posess the evil subtype. so no they would not.Disagree. There is a difference between an Evil subtype (which effectively can't be non-evil alignment) and an alignment of evil. So a 1+ HD evil tiefling would detect as evil.
Alignment gives the aura type so its effectively the same thing. Outsiders "auras" are faintly detectable from 1HD. Non-cleric/paladin humans are only faintly detectable from 5HD.
Tieflings/Aasimars are outsiders (native). Therefore their aura is faintly detectable from 1HD. So detect evil will pick up a 1HD evil tiefling/aasimar. Unless the native subtype removes their aura... Nope. The only thing that native changes is "Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep." Nothing about auras in there. So outsider rule applies.
Native Subtype: This subtype is applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane. Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.
Aligned creature: Faint 5-10; Aligned outsider: Faint: 1
So...
Tiefling = Outsider
Native subtype does not adjust how they register to the spell detect evil.
Non-evil tiefling = no aura
Evil-aligned tiefling = faint aura at 1 HD
Tieflings are not an aligned outsider, because native isn't an alignment.
Whether an outsider is aligned is determined by their plane, and whether or not that plane has an alignment. Native usually means the material plane, which has no alignment. The idea is that Outsiders are so permeated with the essense of their plane that it alters their aura to reflect that plane. And if that plane has an alignment, the aura reflects that. Since Native outsiders are not from another plane, their auras are unaltered by their ancestry.
An aligned outsider is not the same as an outsider with an alignment.
Tieflings despite their origin, do NOT posess the evil subtype. so no they would not.Disagree. There is a difference between an Evil subtype (which effectively can't be non-evil alignment) and an alignment of evil. So a 1+ HD evil tiefling would detect as evil.
This is wrong. Your subtypes have no effect on your behavior and thus, have no effect on your alignment.
An aligned outsider is not the same as an outsider with an alignment.You're reading the the table incorrectly. That's exactly what it means. What do you think an Aligned Creature is? Where do humans fit on that table?
Just a thought - Align Weapon grants a particular alignment to a weapon in order to bypass damage reduction. A creature who has a particular alignment subtype can bypass DR as well. This would sort of imply the two are equivalent - that you're temporarily granting the weapon an alignment subtype.
So I would argue that an 'Aligned Creature' would be one that has a particular alignment subtype.
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An aligned outsider is not the same as an outsider with an alignment.You're reading the the table incorrectly. That's exactly what it means. What do you think an Aligned Creature is? Where do humans fit on that table?** spoiler omitted **
Just a thought - Align Weapon grants a particular alignment to a weapon in order to bypass damage reduction. A creature who has a particular alignment subtype can bypass DR as well. This would sort of imply the two are equivalent - that you're temporarily granting the weapon an alignment subtype.
So I would argue that an 'Aligned Creature' would be one that has a particular alignment subtype.
You realize that this would mean that barely anything but outsiders would ping for a caster using detect spells, right? Dragons, undead, humanoids, magical beasts, aberrations, etc.: It is rare for any of them to have alignment subtypes. There isn't a section in the table that covers so-called "Un-aligned" creatures.
@Serum: good point and withdrawn. I was remembering the text of the spell incorrectly, I thought there was an 'either\or' in it (either the creature has an alignment subtype OR is more than X hit dice) that's not there.
You're reading the the table incorrectly. That's exactly what it means. What do you think an Aligned Creature is? Where do humans fit on that table?
Humans would be an aligned creature, if they have an alignment. There is nothing inherently good/evil about humans, they don't have a racial effect on their aura, or whether or not it is detectable. Most outsiders (like tieflings) are the same in that regard. An aligned outsider (like an angel) is an outsider that is tied to a particular alignment.
An earth elemental with 1 HD wouldn't have an evil aura, while an imp would. Because the imp is an aligned outsider, while the earth elemental is not.
Humans are counted as an aligned creature, so why are Tieflings not counted as aligned outsiders? They are outsiders. The supertext 1 next to Aligned Creature even says "Except for undead and outsiders which have their own entries on the table."
An outsider is always an outsider. They count as an outsider for everything, not just when it is convenient to be an outsider. You can't be targeted with hold person, but yes you still register on detect spells at 1 HD. If you don't want to register on detect spells, make a True Neutral character or buy lots of potions of undetectable alignment.
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You're reading the the table incorrectly. That's exactly what it means. What do you think an Aligned Creature is? Where do humans fit on that table?Humans would be an aligned creature, if they have an alignment. There is nothing inherently good/evil about humans, they don't have a racial effect on their aura, or whether or not it is detectable. Most outsiders (like tieflings) are the same in that regard. An aligned outsider (like an angel) is an outsider that is tied to a particular alignment.
An earth elemental with 1 HD wouldn't have an evil aura, while an imp would. Because the imp is an aligned outsider, while the earth elemental is not.
Really? You're taking the viewpoint that Aligned Creature and Aligned Outsider mean two completely different things?
Humans are counted as an aligned creature, so why are Tieflings not counted as aligned outsiders? They are outsiders. The supertext 1 next to Aligned Creature even says "Except for undead and outsiders which have their own entries on the table."
An outsider is always an outsider. They count as an outsider for everything, not just when it is convenient to be an outsider. You can't be targeted with hold person, but yes you still register on detect spells at 1 HD. If you don't want to register on detect spells, make a True Neutral character or buy lots of potions of undetectable alignment.
I'd have to agree. You can't just say "I'm an outsider" when it comes to spells like Hold Person & Charm Person, but then argue that you are not an outsider when it comes to something negative, like Detect Spells. Although to be honest Detect Spells are the least of your worries as an outsider, since you will have to worry more about Smites, and other spells that are generally not healthy for outsiders (i.e. Dread Bolt & Eaglesoul)
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I think part of the problem of this argument is how much be are focusing on detect evil.
Let's imagine a scene from a cop show (because it is funnier). An inquisitor collects up a line up of the 'usual suspect' (which means tieflings, because medieval fantasy worlds are...racist). They throw in some humans with glued on horns too just to make the whole farce seem fair. The inquisitor casts Detect evil, good, law, and chaos on everyone. Now, if all the people in the room were 1st level, would the tieflings set off the spell while the human doesn't? Let's say that everyone in the line up was LG both for the sake of getting away from detect evil and because it makes the indignation of the scenario all the better.
In some ways, I think that the general idea behind the detect spells is that everyone has an aura with their alignment, but humans just do not have a strong enough aura to register until they are powerful enough (clerics don't really count since they show their deity's aura). Would it be unreasonable to say that a tiefling or aasimar, outsiders that are almost always inherently magical enough to naturally get a spell like ability, simply have a stronger aura than regular humans?
In game terms, the reason native outsiders register for detect spells from 1 hd is because there are things like Oni and Rakshasa running about. The game just never made a distinction between a weak oni and a 1st level tiefling as far as subtypes go because the current one sufficed in describing them in most circumstances (the whole eating and breathing thing for example)
@lemeres
All good points.
The more I think about this, the more I'm thinking that having an aura that's more powerful might be one of the side effects of being a native outsider. It would be the same for an Aasimar.
Yes, you get some resistances. Yes, you get a spell like ability. Yes, you get all kinds of nifty things just for being you. BUT! Now it's harder to hide. So if you're evil, the paladin can find you faster. If your good the anti-paladin can find you faster. Etc, etc.
Perhaps the weakness to detect spells and the like is meant to be a balancing factor for these powerful races?
This is wrong. Your subtypes have no effect on your behavior and thus, have no effect on your alignment.Tieflings despite their origin, do NOT posess the evil subtype. so no they would not.Disagree. There is a difference between an Evil subtype (which effectively can't be non-evil alignment) and an alignment of evil. So a 1+ HD evil tiefling would detect as evil.
I should clarify that I meant that an Evil subtype will always be detected as evil regardless of their alignment. so the statement should have been "which effectively can't be detected as a non-evil alignment".
...Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are evil-aligned.
Tis the price of being a fiend.
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So it sounds like the big question here is do Detect Alignment spells detect the actual alignment of an Outsider-type creature, or does it detect alignment subtypes? Or, coming at it from the other direction, what is the definition of aligned Outsider?
I think the misunderstanding here comes from the term aligned vs. aligned subtype. Pathfinder defines aligned subtype and how it applies to damage reduction. From what I can tell the term aligned subtype is different than the term aligned. All creatures are aligned, but not all creatures have the aligned subtype. This is apparent, due to the fact that an evil human over level 4 will pop as evil when someone uses detect evil on them. The fact that a human doesn’t have the evil subtype tells me, that the two terms are different. It would be good to have more input on this from the dev’s.
Interesting, so my LG Paladin Tiefling pings as Lawful and Good at 1st level, not just Good. :)
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It boils down to this:
Does the Aligned Outsider mean Alignment subtype or any Alignment? The rules are just flat out not clear but considering that Alignment subtype is also an aura, and it has the same aura categories as Cleric (with the exception of 'or lower') I would think that it is subtype rather than just alignment.
Summary: my interpretation is Aligned Outsider really means Outsider with an alignment subtype.
- Gauss
Hmmm, maybe I am remembering something from a previous edition. Still, I have always understood aligned outsider to be synonymous with the alignment subtype of an outsider.
- Gauss
But now I'm thinking a Chaotic Evil Angel - Outsider(Good) that is not a cleric or anti-paladin would make one hell of a BBEG. Sending some poor group of mid-level adventurers on 'quests' until they find out he's actually evil, since Detect Evil would register him as good every single time.
Nope. Detect Evil would detect him as Evil every single time. Detect Good would detect him as Good every single time, and Detect Chaos would detect him as Chaotic every single time.
To make this work, you'd have to have to grab an outsider with the [Law] and [Good] subtypes (I think there are a few, would have to check), and then make him a Chaotic Evil fallen angel.
Now, then you have him approach a group with a Paladin and wave a white flag and say 'Please do not attack, I am in need of your assistance'. He then goes on to tell them he is an angel who has been trapped on the mortal plane by a very evil creature (actually a good creature, or an actual evil one he wants to supplant). This creature has used a major artifact to curse him (if it's a good creature he wants harmed, the creature has 'off-shifted' his CE alignment onto the angel, and he can't go home due to the wards, and his fellows see him as fallen. If it's a CE creature, the creature is tormenting him by forcing these alignment auras on him to keep him isolated from heaven). Make sure he has a REALLY good bluff, and roll the checks ahead of time so they don't see you rolling when they roll a sense motive.
Now you've got the perfect setup, and the PCs should even argue for the fallen angel, advocating for him with others that he's cursed. :)
Outsider (Native) is affected by spells that affect Outsiders, regardless of alignment. By this logic, a 1st level Tiefling should give off a faint aura, whether good, evil, law, or chaos. A non-aligned anything would be of True Neutral.
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Disagree. There is a difference between an Evil subtype (which effectively can't be non-evil alignment)
Someone with an Evil subtype can actually have a non-evil alignment. They will simply detect as evil even when they're not.
(risen fiends and fallen angels and all that)
edit-Damn, already beated to the punch and rather throroughly.
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Outsider (Native) is affected by spells that affect Outsiders, regardless of alignment. By this logic, a 1st level Tiefling should give off a faint aura, whether good, evil, law, or chaos. A non-aligned anything would be of True Neutral.
The question, though, is what do they mean by "Aligned Outsider." If they mean "alignment subtype," then a Tiefling/Aasimar would detect the same way as a humanoid. If they mean "outsider with alignment" then you are correct. Unfortunately, there is actually nothing to indicate which is what they meant. I believe in 3.5 (PF's predecessor), it actually did mean alignment subtype. For PF, that's neither here nor there, I suppose, but that is a valid interpretation until we are told otherwise.
Edit: I just checked the 3.5 Players Handbook, and it appears that I am wrong. It says an Evil Outsider, not an Outsider with the Evil Subtype, with 12 HD pings as Overwhelming Evil. I'm slightly more inclined to believe Aligned Outsider indicates Outsider with alignment. That said, a clarification would still be nice. I'm still of the opinion that it means Alignment subtype, but I can see more validity toward the alternative.
Artoo, Im not sure what you mean regarding Aligned Creatures and Undead.
My point was only to deal with Outsiders and alignment subtypes. Regardless of whether or not they have a powerful aura like Clerics do I still believe that alignment subtypes are what "Aligned Outsider" is referencing.
Just about everything that puts alignment+outsider together without specifying subtype or regular alignment causes this debate, not just Detect Evil.
- Gauss
People are really overthinking this... how can you say that an aligned creature = a creature with an alignment but in the same breath claim that an aligned outsider is not an outsider with an alignment? There is no way you can claim that a Tiefling would count as an aligned creature because the supertext 1 right after that entry states Except for undead and outsider, which have their own entry in the table.
A 1 HD Tiefling that is evil will register with a faint aura. The table makes no mention of detecting the creature's alignment subtype whatsoever. The rule that creatures with an alignment subtype always register as that alignment is a rule in the bestiary. This spell operates independently of that rule as well as any rules that may be created in the future that reference alignment subtypes. It is the bestiary rules that make the spell ping off evil subtypes, not the rules of the Detect Evil spell itself.
Aligned Creature = Creature with an alignment
Aligned Undead = Undead with an alignment
Aligned Outsider = Outsider with an alignment
Where does one see the reference to alignment subtypes in the above table? If "Aligned Outsider" requires the outsider to have the evil subtype to register, then "Aligned Creature" should require the creature to have an alignment subtype in order to register as well.