Funny, s/he never made that link. Or even implied you shouldn't.Ah. So s/he did not say all 3PP is s#@~?
Nope. S/he said that s/he believed that pazio was simply better, and s/he wanted only the option deemed better, to my knowledge.
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Ah. I must have a different understanding of relating 3PP to sewage tanks then.
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Really, IMO if people would sit aside preconceived notions and actually do some research they would find a lot of good material that could greatly improve their games. However, that would require some effort on their behalf and we can't have that.Well, I'm glad that you have infinite amounts of time to go looking through the sewage tanks to find a diamond ring. It must be nice to be one of the idle rich.
Paizo has one of the best editorial teams in the business. This means, among other things, that they do have time to do that, and even to polish up the ring so that it sparkles more brightly. That's what they get paid to do.
In my experience with PF 3PP, it's the other way around. There is some crap out there, but by in large, most of 3PP material is balanced and high quality, sometimes more balanced than what Paizo puts out.
Also while I did some writing in the Kasai gazettteer for the Jade Regent AP, as well as designed the City of Kasai map (I'm credited as a contributing author) - I wouldn't call it my best stuff. In many ways I was ham-strung by the restrictions placed on what I could use culturally to make it best fit an oriental capital by Paizo development.
My best stuff is only available in the Kaidan setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG) published as an imprint under Rite Publishing. Kaidan is not over-the-top balance-wise. Our concern was fitting the unique aspects of the setting to existing Paizo material. We didn't create something just cause it's fun. If it's not balanced it doesn't belong.
For those comparing 3PP products made at the start of the OGL with PF 3PP today - it's more than apples and oranges, there is no comparison at all.
S/he stated opinions, but never actually said you should act on them.No, S/he stated that Paizo products were "objectively" better than all other publisher's products.
Starting's one's beliefs does not equal trying to make you believe the case as well.
An example-
"Christianity is the truth"
Does not equate to-
"You must believe in Christianity."
However, due to the way we perceive things, we tend to assume things without "i think" or "i believe" before them are being shown to us as something we must agree with.
This is from overall observations, and has no citation to back it up, thus, should not be taken as fact, but as opinion.
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wow some serious hostility going on in this thread.
Personally I use 3pp for campaign building resources rather than even more classes. I feel there are too many redundant classes already, but some people enjoy even more classes and that's fine.
Some of the publishers and their products I like are
Jon Brazer Enterprises specifically The Book of River Nations, which is an expanded kingmaker supplement. Also the Shadowsfall series looks interesting but I've lacked the funds lately to pick them up.
Purple Duck Games' Gods of Porphyra is an open content deities book (very much appreciated). Pathfinder gods are fine but its nice to mix it up a bit.
If i was to add psionics I would immediately go with Dreamscarred. I've read them on the SRD and it looks great.
Sure some 3pp aren't very good, but there are plenty that take pride in their products. Its like comparing some generic store brand root beer to an ice cold delicious A&W
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Endzeitgeist alone has reversed my feelings on 3rd party publishers. I think it's fair for people to keep a keen eye on what they allow from any publisher, 3PP or Paizo. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But to say they are "just fans" that write nothing but "fan-fiction" or "over-powered stuff" is pretty insulting to those that work in that business. There are plenty of editors and publishers that work hard to provide cool options for a gaming system that they love and they probably won't make a lot of money from. Whether it's Jon Brazer Enterprises or Super Genius Games or Raging Swan Press, they are hard workers and passionate people that love Pathfinder and their fans.
So, while no one has to buy or like 3PPs, please, don't go around insulting the dedication of the companies that do try and put out good, quality products. So what if they didn't win an ENie? I mean, how often do good actors and good movies miss out on Oscars awards, despite their hard work and quality? Awards are a good indicator of quality, yes, but there's more to high quality 3PP products than just "Who won the most Enies?". Like someone said, even just being nominated means that the product is still really good. Honestly, there many reasons something didn't get votes beyond "It wasn't good enough", most likely that many people didn't buy it.
But at the end of the day, it's your money and you get to choose what to spend it on. So people have the right to be picky about what they buy and a bunch of faceless people on the internet can't, nor shouldn't, change that ;). Just again, no point in insulting the people that work hard in the industry for a hobby they love.
<Louis Porter Jr. Design>: two classes, and I can't easily tell. Let's use your method of assuming the worst, and give them a 0/2.
Well if you are afraid to get burned with some of our products, you can look at the full class for Machinesmith here for free and see if you like to use it in your game. If you really like you can purchase an actual copy of the PDF and support us direct. But there is NO RISK to you as a customer. Hope this helps.
Ah. I must have a different understanding of relating 3PP to sewage tanks then.
Yes, but once again, you stated that-
Ah. So s/he did not say all 3PP is s!%%?
His/her statement implies that some may be good, but it is not worth the effort to find. In addition, metaphors are not always to be taken too literally. See, with what seems to be a perfectionist behavior like his/hers (once again, opinion) everything that isn't at least close to what he deems best would be crap. It's a matter of point of view.
This is from overall observations, and has no citation to back it up, thus, should not be taken as fact, but as opinion.
Bad way to argument, It is easy to find umbalanced things in paizo products. You do not even have to be outside the CRB, just compare druids against rogues.
Please tell me how this is balanced
I'd still prefer to play a rogue over a druid every time. Not everthing is about balance.
Oh, I am fairly certain your classes are fine--it is just that I am not familiar enough with them to unequivocally state with 100% certainty that they are not more powerful than the druid. I'm at least 90% sure that your classes are at least as balanced as core, but that's not the point I was trying to make--I was trying to show that there is no possible way to rationally argue that "most" or even 1/3, of 3PP classes are "unbalanced". I fully expect that your classes, and some of the others I rated as "not sure", are perfectly within the very lenient boundaries of Core, but I wanted to give an absolute lower bound and I am too tired to do a length playtest right now:P
I just think people don't like change. And 3PP is "change" from Paizo even though 40 to 50% of the 3PP are Paizo freelancers or have been hired by Paizo because of their 3PP background. So to hate on a 3PP freelancer but love him when they get to Paizo is just kind of silly, like Paizo is the Pope and they just blessed them.
One of the reasons I don't use 3PP is that much of the material is not available in printed form. An electronic product holds no interest to me, regardless of the content.
There's plenty of 3PP material in printed form. Not all of it certainly not, but to arbitralily not use 3PP because you think there's not much printed only means you're not looking. Granted for most really small publishers this may be true, but there's plenty of printed material as well.
One of the reasons I don't use 3PP is that much of the material is not available in printed form. An electronic product holds no interest to me, regardless of the content.
Well that used to be true but I know of several 3PP including myself who have been using CreateSpace.com (which is owned by Amazon) to do print-on-demand products. So if do a little searching for them on Amazon you can find them. Or just check out the 3PP you might be interested and have them send you the link for their printed material.
It's still true.
One of the reasons I don't use 3PP is that much of the material is not available in printed form. An electronic product holds no interest to me, regardless of the content.
Here are three products I found in less than 3 minutes:
1001 Spells *OP (Pathfinder RPG)
The Reaping Stone: A Deluxe Adventure for 4-6 Characters of 2nd Level
Just admit you are a little snobby when it comes to your gaming. It is OK to feel that way, it is your opinion.
There's plenty of 3PP material in printed form. Not all of it certainly not, but to arbitralily not use 3PP because you think there's not much printed only means you're not looking. Granted for most really small publishers this may be true, but there's plenty of printed material as well.
I buy a truckload of 3PP books.
Another reason is the sanctimonious tone some 3PP adopt when you tell them what your preferences are.
One of the reasons I don't use 3PP is that much of the material is not available in printed form. An electronic product holds no interest to me, regardless of the content.Here are three products I found in less than 3 minutes:
1001 Spells *OP (Pathfinder RPG)
The Reaping Stone: A Deluxe Adventure for 4-6 Characters of 2nd Level
Just admit you are a little snobby when it comes to your gaming. It is OK to feel that way, it is your opinion.
I can find them on my bookshelf, thanks.
Don't sink down to that level.
Yeah that was uncalled for on my part.
That's more or less the exact same thing the last twenty-five snake oil salesmen I've had to speak to have said. An open mind doesn't mean an ignorance of history.
People you play with aren't strangers. I tend to play with people I would at least kinda consider friends and I'm sure you do as well. I would say they deserve more benefit of the doubt (unless you have a "that guy") than a stranger trying to sell you a dubious cure for all your ailments.
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oh man, this thread is disheartening. I don't really see the excuse of "not having enough time" equating to "it can't be in the game", hell there is so much 3pp stuff up on the srd that one can quickly get a feel of what many 3pp stuff out there is like and how balance it is, at worst you can always experiment, if it doesn't work stop using it or modify it, ect
I found the machinesmith confusing.
Some classes don't make sense on your first or second read, even from Core/APG. A lot of times by going to the forums on paizo or whatever company made the class you can find a clarification. I know the magus confused me when I first read it and for the first year or so I never had to deal with one so I never actually learned how the magus worked. Its one of my favorite classes atm, but at first I thought it was ridiculous and confusing and... yeah.
Ok,
So what I've gotten from this thread so far.
A) If you don't allow all 3PP stuff in your game, or if you think more than a small percentage of it is garbage, you are an unmitigated ass who needs to be banned from ever being a GM.
B) If you allow 3PP stuff in your game, or you think more than half of all things that are published by 3PP companies are diamonds, then you are an unmitigated ass who needs to have their books shoved up their nether orifices.
That about sum it up?
Amazing how much hate is being spewed by fanboi's on both sides of the discussion. Wonder if this thread would get locked if all the folks weren't at con...
That about sum it up?
I don't think it does, I think its hyperbole. I think its more of:
A. Don't hate on all 3PP. There is some quality stuff and;
B. There's some not so good stuff too. Its subjective as to whether its better or equal to paizo though, but its no doubt all over the place.
That's probably a little more fair, no? Of course whether you use it is all up to you. Personally, I enjoy homebrew and 3PP.
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That about sum it up?I don't think it does, I think its hyperbole. I think its more of:
A. Don't hate on all 3PP. There is some quality stuff and;
B. There's some not so good stuff too. Its subjective as to whether its better or equal to paizo though, but its no doubt all over the place.
That's probably a little more fair, no? Of course whether you use it is all up to you. Personally, I enjoy homebrew and 3PP.
Quit trying to be reasonable and pick something in the middle.
This is the US of A. We are only allowed two points of view, which must be as diametrically opposed to each other as possible, and all other views are just being spouted by enemies of the state to foment rebellion. Now be good and pick one side or the other, and make as many extremist posts as possible before PreCrime Devision has to show up at your house and arrest you.
Guys, let's play nice, ok? Please.
I think its more of:
A. Don't hate on all 3PP. There is some quality stuff and;
B. There's some not so good stuff too. Its subjective as to whether its better or equal to paizo though, but its no doubt all over the place.
I think that's pretty accurate. I'd go even further and say that "quality" isnt an objective thing at all - some people will declare one book quality whilst deriding another whereas others will have the exact opposite view. Preferences can't be correct or incorrect, they're just what you like.
Personally, what I think is often missed is that restricting oneself to core (or the primary publisher, or whatever) is not always about quality. It certainly isnt in my case - I dont use any 3PP, but that's not because I consider it any worse.
A class shouldn't require going to the forum to make sense of it.I found the machinesmith confusing.Some classes don't make sense on your first or second read, even from Core/APG. A lot of times by going to the forums on paizo or whatever company made the class you can find a clarification. I know the magus confused me when I first read it and for the first year or so I never had to deal with one so I never actually learned how the magus worked. Its one of my favorite classes atm, but at first I thought it was ridiculous and confusing and... yeah.
Nope! But I did so with the magus. APG must suck! [/JK]
My point was that sometimes it helps clarify, not that everyone has to go to a forum. I know guys who understood Incarnum from 3.5 on the first read through, but to me its absurdly confusing.
My point was that sometimes it helps clarify, not that everyone has to go to a forum. I know guys who understood Incarnum from 3.5 on the first read through, but to me its absurdly confusing.
Or just absurd!
I have a lot of 3rd party stuff. For the most part, I like it. However, it has to fit the setting.
I think that some of the bias comes from the 3rd edition stuff, especially from the "d20 Boom" period. We saw a LOT of 3rd edition stuff, and there was a lot of variation between quality, balance, cost, etc. There were a lot of really good ideas, but some books got way overpowered. A lot of the books seemed like "Splat Books", thing just splatted on the pages to sell without regard for quality. This paragraph can go on and on.
Nowadays there are significantly fewer companies that produce Pathfinder. I have found a tendency for higher quality by these companies, even the smaller and less known games. Interjection Games is relatively unknown, but it has a lot of good ideas.
I think that part of the disdain is also that being 3rd party they are not PFS approved. That is not meant as a snootiness, even though it is often mistaken as such. PFS HAS to draw the line somewhere, especially with so many variations already possible. It is easier to manage and keep the characters "clean".
I tend to use most of my 3rd party stuff in my own homebrew games. Many of the ideas, although they are really cool, are not really all that applicable to the world of Golarion. So when we play in Golarion, our group is more picky about what is possible.
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I think my basic attitude boils down to this:
I don't care what other people do at their table. Nor should they care what I do at mine.
I like 3PP stuff, sometimes for the mechanics/crunch, sometimes for the theme/flavor and sometimes just for the art.
I don't feel the need to champion 3PP's any more than they and their fans already do. They are hit and miss just like Paizo.
I understand but cannot empathise with, anyone who would blanket-ban 3PPs or not want to have more available options. It just seems myopic.
Insulting, bigoted and derogatory comments about the relative value of 3PPs are unnecessary and degrade the entire thread and the movement of RPGs.
Without 3PP's there would be a lot less creativity expressed. The relative value of that creativity is up for debate, but the fact remains, and the less there is the less possibilty for comparison and, improvement.
I do think the editing component is important to remember when comparing 3PP's and Paizo. However, it may be that some 3PP's have fantastic editing.
As for the Ennies being representative, I would find that laughable. Popular music presents artists every day that are... popular. I would put my faith in good reviews by respected reviewers or my own judgement.
If you don't have the time to explore the available options then don't entertain them. If you want some fantastic, cutting edge, creative options from dedicated and passionate designers 3PP's AND Paizo are the place to go.
Summoners?A class shouldn't require going to the forum to make sense of it.I found the machinesmith confusing.Some classes don't make sense on your first or second read, even from Core/APG. A lot of times by going to the forums on paizo or whatever company made the class you can find a clarification. I know the magus confused me when I first read it and for the first year or so I never had to deal with one so I never actually learned how the magus worked. Its one of my favorite classes atm, but at first I thought it was ridiculous and confusing and... yeah.
To be fair, Summoners are a source of criticism and debate on these forums (though less so in recent months) in large part due to the fact that it's that difficult to make sense of.
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So, I guess this thread is my fault because of a hilarious comment I made, so let me address this a little ;)
What's strange about this sentiment? Well, for starters, it is literally judging a book by its cover. But mplindustries isn't even judging off of the entire cover--just the part of the cover that says who published the book. I would have thought most people would at least read the cover of a book before judging the content:O
So, to explain a little, the line you quoted was tongue in cheek. I used a tongue face and everything!
That said, I really do see this as fan-fiction. Just because it's well written doesn't make it somehow not fan-fiction--I'm told there are plenty of fan-fiction authors that are actually better than the original writer of the material, for example. And now, thanks to 50 Shades of Grey, there's a real market for actually buying fan-fiction--seriously, Amazon now has a section of their site just for buying people's fan-fiction.
And that's my problem. If you're an awesome game designer, please, please, write your own game--a better game than Pathfinder. Don't waste your talent on Pathfinder fan fiction. To me, if you're a great game designer writing 3rd party material under the OGL (whether you did this for Pathfinder or 3rd edition), you're trying to get an easy pay day, or you're trying to get a job from the company you're writing 3rd party material for, or whatever. That's laudable, and I hope it works for you. But I'm not going to read it, sorry, just like I won't read your Game of Thrones or Firefly fan fiction. I will happily read your own RPG, though, with all original stuff. I'd love to, really--I've read more RPGs than most people know exist.
Lastly, I think the disturbing quote was a little tongue-in-cheek, given the emoticon wink at the end.
Very perceptive of you :)
Second, if you want to bash on the authors and say they're just fans, do you avoid these same authors when they write Paizo products?
I don't think it's a bash to say they're fans. I'm not trying to bash anyone. But this is very much like some people outside the stadium throwing the football around. Some of them might throw better than the actual quarterbacks playing (especially if the Jets play the Jaguars ;P), but that doesn't suddenly make them part of the team. They're still a fan--skill doesn't make you not a fan. Having your own product does.
Third, if you avoid avoid 3pp because there's some unbalanced stuff, do you do the same for paizo because there's some real crap there, even in core.
Yes, I always recommend against Fighters, Rogues, Monks, and Cavaliers, and try to dissuade people from being Wizards, Clerics, Druids, and Witches (and I ban Paragon Surge and several other problematic things). The setting I'm currently running has a setting element that disrupts dimensional magic, so I didn't need to worry about Summoner anyway.
I wonder if certain people realize that Paizo was a third party publisher before the release of the Pathfinder Roleplasing Game.
It was, and guess what? I didn't use Paizo material with 3rd edition, either. Then, they went and wrote their own game, sort of.
If most gamers had then tought, "oh they're just a 3PP, their stuff must be crap", there would be no Pathfinder game now.
I'm going to be totally honest. I don't think I would really mind if that had happened. I'm impressed by the Paizo staff, they seem like great guys, it's awesome that they realized their dreams and got this big. But frankly, I would still prefer that they made their own game, instead of using the deeply flawed basis of 3rd edition D&D. I know it was an obvious, no brainer financial decision, but if I didn't have to play Pathfinder, I don't think I would (my one group never has and never wants to--my other group will ONLY play Pathfinder, and I'm slowly working on that).
The derogatory comment about 3PP companies quoted in the opening post was a very insulting and uninformed comment. 3PP companies like Kobold Press are *hardly* fan-fiction.
I think your comment was pretty damn insulting to fan-fiction authors, especially the ones that get paid for their work. You are writing material for someone else's game, just as they are writing material for someone else's characters/world. It's not an insult to be compared to fan-fiction unless you have a very low opinion of fan-fiction.
Frankly, I think mplindustries owes the 3PP folks that work extremely hard and do as great a job as Paizo does a sincere apology.
I owe no apology because I made no insult. I said I don't read fan-fiction. I do not consider that an insult--I am married to a prolific fan-fiction writer, if it makes you feel better. You should be very proud of your work--everyone should be proud of what they do. If you have some kind of need for me to be proud of you, too, though, well, write your own game.
The standard of "balance" for base classes set by the Core Rule Book is that classes should fall in the same power range of CRB classes. So for a base class to be "balanced" in PF, it has to be no more powerful than the wizard/druid, but no less powerful than the fighter/rogue/monk.
I challenge this premise. The CRB is not balanced--the very core of 3rd edition D&D is unbalanced. I will not judge balance on wizards and fighters, thanks.
That said, my objection has always been a philosophical one. I actually don't know if 3rd party material is overpowered or not--if I had to guess, I'd bet most of it is terrible, weak junk from people who put flavor first (just like a great deal of the official content) with only a very small portion being power fantasy nonsense--but the thing is, I don't actually care if it's overpowered, underpowered, or exactly equal. It is irrelevant to me.
Been reading a lot of this. I'm wondering how much of this boils down to "How dare these people self-publish stuff when I'm too g&%!$$n lazy to do it myself?"
Actually, if they're good game designers (and I'm sure some of them are), I very much want them to self-publish stuff--I just don't want that stuff to be for someone else's game, I want it to be their own.
no good has come, or will come from this thread its all just a big ass flame war leave each other alone or walk away for awhile, there is nothing wrong with 3PP and their is nothing wrong with being snobbish and confrontational about them (everyone (i hope) has a free will) as far as i know MPLindustries has not been unfair (maybe a bit insulting i s'pose) or wrote angry biased reviews. getting mad or insulted by it will only encourage it to continue.
as for myself, i have very little money to spend on frivolous items (what with 2 kids on one income) so i prefer to spend it on Paizo's stuff. would i like to get Razor Coast or Midgard stuff? i suppose but if i do then i could say b-bye to Mythic Adventures or Rasputin Must Die! for my birthday or christmas and i'm not willing to make that sacrifice.
just my 1 cent (after taxes)
Okay, so I am just going to say that the people who are "all 3PP is good" and the people that are "all 3PP is bad" basically need to chill.
I will say this: There are a lot of balanced or even underpowered fine pieces of material from 3PP. That material in my experience is never the material that I see players wanting to use.
I also have to say that I don't like anything that isn't OGL or at least available to check out for free before I invest in it. I remember really wanting to check out the Expanded Battle Scion, as it filled a niche that I really wanted in a class, but I could not test it out or even see what its class abilities were like unless I bought it. This made me upset.
Like all things, even from Paizo, There is some material that is so good that I can't ignore it. My posts which were flammed earlier in the thread were not statements about my feelings toward 3PP, but rather an answer to the OP's "what's with the 3PP hate?" I don't hate 3PP, but I do think a majority of it is done with less finesse and expertise than it should be, at it leads to balance problems. When I see 3PP feats that change the game to the point where I see formerly MAD classes become SAD classes, and they become overbearingly powerful because of it, I get a little scarred.
Thesis: As a whole, just blindly allowing all 3PP material leads to madness, and disallowing it, while close minded and unimaginative, at least keeps the balance problems with the guys who made the game.
Now, I've noticed that no one has responded to anyone who answered basically "Case by case allowance of 3PP is okay" and I will now respond to those posters: You are doing it right. I even feel there are some things from Paizo that should be allowed on a case by case.
Most 3PP materials lack the factor of balanceMeh, so does some of Paizo's own stuff.
A cleric, a wizard, a fighter, and a rogue all meet at an inn... Classic! But horribly imbalanced.
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Back in 3.5 days, Green Ronin pretty much had a pass across the board.
In Pathfinder, Dreamscar Press has replaced Green Ronin (I wish Green Ronin was as prolific now as it used to be, not even sure if they are still a going concern).
I think they have understandably decided to focus on their own systems (Dragon Age, Mutants & Masterminds, and ASOIAF).
Most 3PP materials lack the factor of balanceMeh, so does some of Paizo's own stuff.
Did you read the thread?
For me I am on a minimalist crusade to the extent of playing BECMI again and I am barely interested in bloat that Paizo puts out let alone 3pp stuff. The less classes the better, the less rules the better, less feats etc. If its not in the PFRPG book and maybe ultimate magic/combat I'm probably not interested and even then it is a case of ask 1st (no gun slingers usually). I have 80 odd 3rd ed books on my shelf so I'm really good to go.