Bardcane Archer Feat Selection


Advice


Despite our GM's frequent attempts, my cheesy little archer bard has made it to 10th level, and has fulfilled all the requirements to advance into the realm of Arcane Archer. I read Treantmonk's guide, and have some ideas for my next feats, but I'm looking for some order of priority for these feats, and whether Arcane Archer is a good idea.

Here's Alton's stat block:

Stat Block:

Alton Nimblewit
NG Halfling Bard 10
HD: 10d8 + 10 (72 hp)
Str 15
Dex 20 (+2 from Belt of Dexterity)
Con 12
Int 16 (+2 from Crown of the Kobold King)
Wis 7
Cha 18 (+2 from Crown of the Kobold King)

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Arcane Strike, Deadly Aim, Weapon Focus (shortbow)

His current weapon of choice is a +1 merciful Composite Shortbow (Mighty +2), but he can use a +1 keen rapier in a pinch. Right now, his damage output with all bonuses considered is 1d4+13 (+1d6 if doing nonlethal damage).

So I have come up with a short list of the next 4 feats I'd like to choose: Rapid Shot (-> Manyshot), Clustered Shot, and Leadership.

The GM has been pretty good with Cohorts, whenever the NPCs aren't busy getting said cohorts killed. Damage Reduction has been relatively rare, so I'm not sure of the short-term ROI on Clustered Shot. Rapid Shot and Manyshot will boost my damage output, but it potentially doesn't have the same utility as a whole 'nother person on the battlefield.

To recap, the two questions are: what feat should I take next, and how bad is the transition to a full BAB class this late in the game?


To be honest, I do find Bards best as CC and Buffers, though that doesn't mean they can't be viable for other forms of offense.

If DR hasn't been prevalent in your game, feats that negate some levels of DR may not be necessary if it is rare (though still helpful when it does occur).

Most classes do require you to keep in those levels all the way to get the full benefits of the package; the Bard is one of them. The issue you would face going into Arcane Archer is missing out on the rest of your Bardic Performance abilities; Inspire Courage and Inspire Heroics (I think that's the name) are both very powerful songs that augment the party greatly, and when you have access to the Shadowbard spell, you can have both songs going simultaneously, plus a follow-up with Haste and Greater Heroisms, your front-liners are quite the force to be reckoned with.

Simultaneously, this does hurt you if you plan to keep on using a bow and being prevalent with it. The question comes as to how you wish to play your character: Do you want to be a competent ranged character, or do you want to stick to what a bard is known for; buffs and crowd control effects? If a competent ranged character, Arcane Archer would probably be your best bet, and the fact it's a full BAB PrC makes it much more viable. Of course, your frontliners may pick up a bow and be just as effective as you are with it, defeating the purpose of even selecting it in the first place. But it's not the end of the world, and if it is at all daunting, then sticking to what you do best may be your best option.

As far as a feat to take, Lingering Performance is always nice. Metamagics may be helpful with some CC's or buffs if you plan to go that route instead (Extend/Quicken come to mind). As far as ranged is concerned, Reckless Shot may also be helpful if you're willing to risk friendly fire, and if you want to have some melee capabilities, even with your bow, Snap Shot is also pretty nifty.


Well. Arcane Archer isn't an _awesome_ idea, let's put it that way. Primary, you're sacrificing bardic music progression, and all you're getting for it is 2 BAB over the course of the next 10 levels, plus some generally lousy AA abilities.

Frankly, if it's allowed as written, Leadership is about the greatest feat in the history of mankind. It's just better than anything else you can take. Take it immediately.

After that, I'd do Rapid Shot/Manyshot - you have plenty of other things you can do if you run into a creature with DR.

I'd also look at ...dischordant voice? +1d6 damage to every attack everybody does. Pretty must-have level 11 bard feat.

-Cross


I forgot about the Discordant Voice feat, it's very nice.

Also, Leadership if allowed is a very powerful one, and is one you should probably take before any other one, since you can get a Cohort which can either help defend you or provide you with other services (crafting some items or a secondary buff-bot).


Thanks for the details. I'll have to look at Discordant Voice... it could do a decent job of increasing our damage output.

Although an Arcane Archer diminishes the returns on the bardic music, most of the other benefits that come with being a Bard will continue to be useful in later levels. Here's what I stand to lose:

- More powerful / longer performances
- 3 levels of spellcasting
- Additional versatile performance
- 2 skill points / level
- Minor "out-of-combat" bonuses (i.e., extra uses of Loremaster)

What I stand to gain:

- Faster Fort/Reflex saves (It's a wash because Will is my lowest save)
- Less gear-dependent in a low-magic campaign
- Higher BAB
- Freaking Imbue Arrow
- Phase Arrow (GM loves concealment)

With the exception of Inspire Courage, most of my buffs come from spells anyways.

One thing I can absolutely agree on is the need for Leadership. If you can convince me that Arcane Archer is a bad choice, I'm willing to listen, but with the exception of Dirge of Doom, I'm not convinced that CC is my best weapon, since Cha is not my highest stat.

Maybe the rest of the party makeup will help:
- Tetori Monk (basically a self-important, pantheistic professional wrestler)
- Sword and Board Paladin (I'm trying to convince her to go 2-handed Falchion instead)
- Oracle GMPC with the Life mystery and the Haunted curse

*Edited for Emphasis*


Imbue arrow means you can launch anti magic field arrows.


Do bards even have any good AoE spells for imbue arrow?

Sovereign Court

Umm... have they dropped the required elf or 1/2 elf requirement of being an arcane archer? I know there is new core errata, but that one would surprise me if they changed it.


Yes, they did, and it was a good change. Why can only elves and half elves utilize eleven technique stuff? At least humans should, they steal everything after all.


Anti-magic fields... Launched. Nuff said.


I Hate Nickelback wrote:
Do bards even have any good AoE spells for imbue arrow?

Silence, Confusion, Glitterdust, possibly a long-range Haste.

Cylyria wrote:


Umm... have they dropped the required elf or 1/2 elf requirement of being an arcane archer? I know there is new core errata, but that one would surprise me if they changed it.

It was errata'd. Er'body can be one now.


Rapid Shot is your best choice, for the big damage spike. Alternatively, you have enough Strength for power attack if you want a good boost to your melee power (or risky striker from the ARG in the same vein). The Lucky Halfling feat is a nice throwaway one, as well. In short, you have the staples now. You can take whatever you want. Manyshot is a nice damage spike, but you might want to branch out for something for your melee or leadership first before you pick it up. Versatility is king, especially in smaller parties.

In short, you have the right idea.

  • A tangent, but sword and board paladins are awesome. Extra Lay-On-hands makes them nigh unkillable, and there really isn't much of a damage deficit. The thing with shields is they fall behind in a low-wealth campaign. When you're actually sporting a +2 shield/+2 armour instead of a suit of +3 armour, you feel the difference. Also the shield feats are great (although there are plenty of trap feats also), and shield bashing multiplies her smite damage if she went the TWF route. Don't knock it til you try it. Falchions are for chumps.


  • The way it looks, Leadership is the next feat I'll take, and everything afterward is a bonus.

    I'm definitely too squishy to be a melee combatant, so I avoid it like the plague for this character. Which is odd, because I have the highest AC of the group at 24 (Touch 16; Flat-footed 19). It's also too easy for me to get out of melee, with a +17 Acrobatics.

    The paladin has been more or less a damage soaker. Her AC is hovering around 22 or so, despite Full Plate and a Heavy Shield, and her damage output isn't exactly optimal at this point.


    Imbue arrow is possibly the most over-rated ability in all of pathfinder. It's legitimately awful, and has almost no use.

    -Cross

    Silver Crusade

    Crosswind wrote:

    Imbue arrow is possibly the most over-rated ability in all of pathfinder. It's legitimately awful, and has almost no use.

    I have never used the ability, so I might not be able to speak to it's actual usefulness. But being able to shoot around corners/through walls and into a room filled with baddies to set off a fireball/other AOE spells seems pretty good. I guess those situations might not come up that much though. Still sounds like something cool when combined with other AA abilities. If anything else it has some unique flavor.

    What kind of AOE spells would be awesome if you could shoot them at a target through walls?

    EDIT: Detonate would be good...


    I like "Hammer the Gap" for break DR vs Cluster shot because when you are not breaking DR it just dose extra Damage. As it stand right now your BFN (Big Fat Number) to add is eaten up by DR. You have +1 magic +1 Point blank +2 Bard Song (+3 in 1 level)+3 Arcane Stike + 1 mighty. So vs DR 5 you get 3 though on every shoot with out dealy aiming. You need arrows that over come material type of DR. Also a Wand of Agline Weapon 4.5k GP and you are fine. Also hand full of Bane Constuct and Bane Elementals Arrow and you will be fine Again about 4k.

    Will GM let restring your bow for better STR that you have?

    Hammer the Gap (Combat)
    You repeatedly strike the same location, causing increasing amounts of damage.

    Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +6.

    Benefit: When you take a full-attack action, each consecutive hit against the same opponent deals extra damage equal to the number of previous consecutive hits you have made against that opponent this turn. This damage is multiplied on a critical hit.

    This feat is band in our game is band it is to strong and broke. I my groups OP.. expcialy if you use death form mass damage rules.

    Clustered Shots (Combat)
    You take a moment to carefully aim your shots, causing them all to strike nearly the same spot.

    Prerequisites: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, base attack bonus +6.

    Benefit: When you use a full-attack action to make multiple ranged weapon attacks against the same opponent, total the damage from all hits before applying that opponent's damage reduction.

    Special: If the massive damage optional rule is being used (Core Rulebook 189), that rule applies if the total damage you deal with this feat is equal to or exceeds half the opponent's full normal hit points (minimum 50 points of damage).


    Imbue Arrow (Su): At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell's area is centered where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow's range rather than the spell's range. A spell cast in this way uses its standard casting time and the arcane archer can fire the arrow as part of the casting. The arrow must be fired during the round that the casting is completed or the spell is wasted. If the arrow misses, the spell is wasted.

    To me Imbue Arrow is I get spell off and Attack with my bow that I then Vital Stike.

    Here quick list of spell that Wiz/Sorc can use.

    Level 1 Color Spray, Burning Hands, Grease,Obscuring Mist, & Sleep

    Level 2 Create Pit, Dust of Twilight, Fog Cloud, Flaming Sphere, Glitterdust,Gusting Sphere, Gust of Wind, Haunting Choir, web, Shatter
    & Pyrotechnics

    Level 3 Aqueous Orb,Daylight,Deep Slumber, Dispell magic, Firestream,Fireball, Lightning Bolt,Nixie's Lure,Pellet Blast, Spiked Pit


    Okay, a few things:

    1.) Imbue arrow can't go through/around walls.

    2.) This guy is a bard, so most of those spells you listed (including antimagic field) are not available.

    3.) Half those spells you listed already have sufficient range that putting them at arrow-range doesn't do much for you.

    4.) Hammer the Gap isn't great. Clustered Shots is amazing. Do the math on Hammer the Gap. Your archer is presumably rapid-shotting and hasted, so you'll have 3 attacks, then a secondary, until about level 13 or 14, where you'll have a tertiary. That's 5 total attacks.

    If you hit 100% of your attacks, you have gotten +1, +2, +3, +4, for a total of 10 bonus damage over 5 attacks. Equal to weapon specialization. Weapon Spec is a good (not great) damage feat.

    Of course, if you miss, or switch targets, you'll average less than +1 damage per hit due to that feat, which makes it crap.

    Further, that does very little to deal with DR. +4 damage does very little, relative to _only making DR apply once_, which is what clustered shots does.

    -Cross

    Silver Crusade

    Imbue Arrow + Phase/Seeker Arrow can go through/around walls.

    I agree that as a Bard, Imbue Arrows usefulness might be pretty low.


    Aconyte wrote:

    Imbue Arrow + Phase/Seeker Arrow can go through/around walls.

    I agree that as a Bard, Imbue Arrows usefulness might be pretty low.

    How do you propose to get 2 standard actions to use those actions in 1 round? Unless you're quickening the spell? =)

    -Cross

    Silver Crusade

    I stand corrected. Well I did want to play an AA, now I'm kinda upset it is like that.

    Good catch reading the whole ability description carefully Crosswind.


    Aconyte wrote:

    I stand corrected. Well I did want to play an AA, now I'm kinda upset it is like that.

    Good catch reading the whole ability description carefully Crosswind.

    I played an AA, optimized the @#$% out of it, was _staggered_ by how much worse it is than almost any other choice you can make.

    Prestige classes in pathfinder are pretty darned bad, but AA is just...special.

    -Cross

    Silver Crusade

    I have always wanted to play one, ever since 3.0 (along with the assassin, maybe one day). It just feels wrong the abilities don't mix with each other.

    Oh Well...


    Crosswind wrote:

    Okay, a few things:

    4.) Hammer the Gap isn't great. Clustered Shots is amazing. Do the math on Hammer the Gap. Your archer is presumably rapid-shotting and hasted, so you'll have 3 attacks, then a secondary, until about level 13 or 14, where you'll have a tertiary. That's 5 total attacks.

    If you hit 100% of your attacks, you have gotten +1, +2, +3, +4, for a total of 10 bonus damage over 5 attacks. Equal to weapon specialization. Weapon Spec is a good (not great) damage feat.

    Of course, if you miss, or switch targets, you'll average less than +1 damage per hit due to that feat, which makes it crap.

    Further, that does very little to deal with DR. +4 damage does very little, relative to _only making DR apply once_, which is what clustered shots does.

    -Cross

    Cluster Shoot is broke it make DR pointless. It lets 6th level warrior or anyone BaB of +6 do damage to a GOD or any thing with DR/Epic with a handfull of rocks. Also it can be taken by anyone it makes Penetrating Strike* Greater Penetrating Strike* pointless wich you should be 12th or 16th level fighter to take.

    hammer the gap is balnced feat that add little more damage that scale with BaB and power level of the game. While with cluster shoot you can start hunting Gods at level 6 it mess up the power scale of the game.

    Also as it stands the give Bard only need a little more damage to break DR. And cluster shoot dose nothing in the fights that DR is not a Issue. I mean with right prep that I suggested there is no DR at this level that he can not break.

    DR/ magic= Arcane strike
    DR/ aglinment= Wand of Aglin weapon
    DR/ Sliver=Sliver Arrows
    DR/ Clod Iron= Cold Iron Arrows
    DR/ Admanite= Admanite Arrows
    DR/- K well the only with this is some Character builds wich only slow you down by 5 at best wich he breal all ready and hammer the gap will pile on more daage Or elelmentals that the Bane Arrows will make short work of A bane arrow is 2d6+2 damage pluss his regular damage. Wich means on average you only lose 1 point of damage due DR/-
    DR/epic well at level 10 or 11 this deffence should hold up and be viable deffence.

    What dose clusster shoot do in fight that DR is not there.....Nothing.....but hammer the gap still dose.


    Arcane archer is all about hitting your enemies with a single arrow in a round. Hit them with a single arrow around a corner. Hit them with a single arrow while also casting an AoE spell on them. Hit each of your enemies with a single arrow.

    The problem is, hitting an enemy with a single arrow doesn't do a damn thing to kill them, as single arrow damage is pretty meaningless. Archers get their damage from shooting lots of arrows in a full attack, and full attacking nearly all the time.

    That said, I'm not sure how you've been dealing any meaningful damage not having rapid shot and many shot. So if you're currently useful to your party as an archer without those feats (while presumably rarely hitting your enemies more than once per round, and never more than twice) your character might well be the first character I've ever seen for whom going Arcane Archer is a good idea (excepting characters with antimagic field on their spell list who take no more than 4 levels of the class). If one arrow per round is enough anyway, you might as well make sure that one arrow always hits.

    As to feats: you're offering a choice between the most powerful feat in existence (heck, you could get yourself an archer cohort who has all the other feats you mentioned and does would do more damage than you do now), the two most important feats to do damage as an archer, and a feat to overcome DR. You can guess where this is going in terms of priority, I think. ;-)


    soupturtle wrote:

    Arcane archer is all about hitting your enemies with a single arrow in a round. Hit them with a single arrow around a corner. Hit them with a single arrow while also casting an AoE spell on them. Hit each of your enemies with a single arrow.

    The problem is, hitting an enemy with a single arrow doesn't do a damn thing to kill them, as single arrow damage is pretty meaningless. Archers get their damage from shooting lots of arrows in a full attack, and full attacking nearly all the time.

    That said, I'm not sure how you've been dealing any meaningful damage not having rapid shot and many shot. So if you're currently useful to your party as an archer without those feats (and thus presumably rarely hitting your enemies more than once per round, and never more than twice) your character might well be the first character I've ever seen for whom going Arcane Archer is a good idea (excepting characters with antimagic field on their spell list who take no more than 4 levels of the class). If one arrow per round is enough anyway, you might as well make sure that one arrow always hits.

    Wich is why this is class should have Vital strike as pre req. And that you use better verrions as well.


    Vital strike cannot be combined with any of the arcane archer abilities. The arcane archer abilities are standard actions. Vital strike can only be used on an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action.

    Also, vital strike with bows (or almost any other weapon that isn't at least huge sized) is not that great anyway, as it only doubles the dice, not anything else. So a single arrow still doesn't do that much damage.


    Aconyte wrote:

    I have always wanted to play one, ever since 3.0 (along with the assassin, maybe one day). It just feels wrong the abilities don't mix with each other.

    Oh Well...

    Hey. You there. Seriously want to play an arcane archer? Do this:

    AASIMAR (important), levels taken in this order
    Fighter(5)
    Sorc (Arcane) (2)
    AA(3)
    Eldritch Knight(10)

    Basically, AA isn't catastrophically terrible for its first 3 levels. You gain an average of 3.5 points of damage per shot from flaming, which is nice. And you pick up imbue arrow (trash, but thematically fun), 3 AB and 2 caster levels.

    You finish with a BAB of 19, a caster level of 14, and you can easily pick up all relevant feats. As an archer fighter for the first 5 levels, you do just about as much damage as any other possible character, before switching to get a ton of utility for the rest of the game. You cap life off with Spell Critical, which is super-fun and lets you basically free-quicken a spell per round if you crit (whiich you will).

    Sample Build:

    Elven Fighter/Wizard/AA/EK:

    Fighter (1) Point Blank Shot, (Precise Shot)
    Fighter (2) Rapid Shot
    Fighter (3) Deadly Aim
    Fighter (4) Weapon Focus: Longbow
    Fighter (5) Weapon Specialization: Longbow
    Sorc (6) --
    Sorc (7) Manyshot
    AA (8)
    AA (9) Improved Critical: Longbow
    AA (10)
    EK (11) (Clustered Shots), Critical Focus
    EK (12)
    EK (13) Improved Familiar
    EK (14)
    EK (15) (Staggering Critical), Greater Weapon Focus: Longbow
    EK (16)
    EK (17) Greater Weapon Specialization: Longbow
    EK (18)
    EK (19) (Critical Mastery), Some Critical Feat Of Your Choice
    EK (20)

    Basic Tricks that are used:
    1.) Aasimar qualifies you for EK's spellcasting requirement, which is nice, because we can only cast second level spells at that point. =)
    2.) Arcane Bond gives us a familiar, which we can upgrade at (13), which is snazzy as heck.

    If you want, you can trade the critical feats for precise shot feats, or the Snap Shot lines. I tend to think that those critical feats are REALLY GOOD (denying things full attacks with staggering crit is essential), so that's my preference.

    In this build, it's not so much that AA is good, as that nothing we can put in those extra 3 levels is amazing, so we may as well put AA there, as it can be fun in mid-levels.

    -Cross (You could also take some metamagic and put it there)

    Silver Crusade

    Thanks Cross. I have seen that build and it's siblings across the boards. I might go that route next time I am a player again. Definitely an awesome build for an "arcane" archer.


    I'd be more inclined to do something like Fighter 1 / Wizard or Sorcerer 1 / Eldritch Knight 5 / Arcane Archer 3/ Eldritch Knight 5/ Arcane Archer 1

    That way you get more spells earlier on, while still having plenty of bonus feats for the required archery feats. If you're still playing beyond level 16, you can probably figure out whether you want feats (fighter), caster levels (wizard/sorcerer) or even 4 more levels of Arcane Archer. It also works well if you think the recent ruling on spell like abilities qualifying you for prestige classes is ridiculous, and you want to take 5 levels of Wizard (or 6 of Sorcerer) early on and play any race you like.


    soupturtle wrote:

    I'd be more inclined to do something like Fighter 1 / Wizard or Sorcerer 1 / Eldritch Knight 5 / Arcane Archer 3/ Eldritch Knight 5/ Arcane Archer 1

    That way you get more spells earlier on, while still having plenty of bonus feats for the required archery feats. If you're still playing beyond level 16, you can probably figure out whether you want feats (fighter), caster levels (wizard/sorcerer) or even 4 more levels of Arcane Archer. It also works well if you think the recent ruling on spell like abilities qualifying you for prestige classes is ridiculous, and you want to take 5 levels of Wizard (or 6 of Sorcerer) early on and play any race you like.

    That's totally viable. My reason to go fighter 5 as soon as possible is because Weapon Mastery lets you buy gloves of dueling to get +3 to attack and damage, which is about as incredible a mid-game DPR boost as you can purchase.

    Also, I suspect that you're going to miss out on at least 1 or two of the feats I suggested if you don't go with that much fighter, and I sort of like all of them, as early as possible.

    -Cross


    Hmm... lots of information to parse. I'll have to continue looking at it. An arcane archer does seem to be sub-optimal, and I already have the ability to overcome most DR at this level, except for alignment-based DR (which, thankfully, has been rare except for a Hellcat).

    Alton is packed to the teeth with different kinds of arrows and alchemicals: blunted arrows, cold iron arrows, silver arrows, a small assortment of adamantine arrows (for the stupid animated objects with hardness and no anatomy)... bane arrows and a wand of align weapon, while nice, will likely not be viable in this campaign due to the "magic is rare" nature of it. The GM even regrets letting me get my bow enhanced with a +1 merciful property back at 9th level (merciful because he's a good soul, and mistakenly thinks anyone can be redeemed).

    The big draw I saw was the arrow enhancements: adding properties like flaming burst, holy and distance at no additional cost seemed like a big win to my damage output. The utility of imbue arrow seemed like it was useful as a surprise attack, where I can combine a CC spell and a little damage in the same attack, but my limited repertoire kind of downgraded it to orange for me.

    One thing's for sure... I'm definitely taking Leadership at the next level. Our party hasn't abused it, and even the GM agrees that our group could use an extra hand to balance the party out. Only houserule on Leadership: I don't get to specify the exact build of my cohort, at least at the beginning. In another campaign, I requested a "bodyguard"-like cohort for my Conjuror, and was given an Urban Ranger/Skirmisher.


    Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
    As far as ranged is concerned, Reckless Shot may also be helpful if you're willing to risk friendly fire, and if you want to have some melee capabilities, even with your bow

    It's a competence bonus, so doesn't stack with inspire courage.

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