He's gonna regret having an Aquatic form after the first book since there's like NO WATER in Book 2 (besides one little bit) and Book 3 ain't much better.
That's as far as I got though.
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Aquatic eidolons already have the improved natural armor evolution; they can't take it again until they hit level 5. Also, 1st level mage armor and shield aren't nearly as awesome as you're making them out to be - cast both and you have nothing left until the next day, and even mage armor only lasts an hour. Given the amount of random encounters in the AP, especially the first book, I don't think 1 hour is going to be enough.
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He's gonna regret having an Aquatic form after the first book since there's like NO WATER in Book 2 (besides one little bit) and Book 3 ain't much better.
That's as far as I got though.
There's a bit more in book 4+.
As to the summoner: After 2 different summoner builds both outshined everyone else in combat without even trying, we decided to ban summoner. And we don't ban things lightly in our group. In fact, we tend to do the opposite where we'll create custom content to make a character work, or allow things to work that (by strict RAW) shouldn't. In fact, the summoner class is literally the only thing we have banned.
Since we banned it, I've taken to avoiding much commentary on the boards about them.
Oh, and the synthesist can't cast spells in aquatic form at all. No arms.
Eh, he could just buy a pair of arms. They're only 1 point I think.
Remember, a synthesist summoner is only as powerful as a regular summoner with half the actions,And half the weaknesses.
Yeah cause Armored Casting, Invisibility, CC and D8 HP was way weak sauce in the defense department. Not to mention that Defense always beats a better offense and action economy in 3.5/PF/Table top. Its totally worth giving up half your action economy for some AC and Hitpoints that cant be replaced with normal healing spells. Totally worth it.
*Sarcasm off*
Master Summoner>Summoner>Syth Summoner
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I am playing a Synth Summoner in a Jade Regent game, and I have to attest, without trying, I was able to have mobility to bypass obstacles that were probably intended to be much more challenging to the party.
(the character is intentionally sub-optimal spending multiple feats on item crafting)
Still, the ability to respend evolution points at each level up means the character adapts absurdly quickly to environmental challenges and being an 'adequate' damage absorbing tank for the party without investing much by the way of feats allows the character to spend resources on 'situation defensive' powers that can really frustrate a GM.
(1st lvl up after reaching snow, character is immune to cold attacks)
(1st lvl up after facing ninjas, see invisibility is on spell list)
(dimension door forces every significant enemy to be nose-to-nose with the eidolon on the 2nd round of any encounter)
The other overlooked issue is the 'evolution surge' spell. For a situational combat need, that spell allows cheap access to short-duration powers that are likely unavailable elsewhere for an equivalent level spell.
Finally, when the enemies started attacking at night (asleep = no eidolon) It merely meant that the "phone-book of level appropriate summons" was getting activated the instant combat arises, as these x/day summons are never used up for the Synth, meaning his 'Summon Eidolon' spell can occur on round 2.
Essentially the "weakness" of the eidolon not being available when you are asleep, generally translates into the 'camp' encounters having both a summoned monster and a Synth in an eidolon (in less time than it takes the rogue to hastily don his chain shirt)
So, I can fully understand why a GM would find this class frustrating, when played one way, it can be a broken damage dealer, when played another, it can always seem to have the perfect counter to the present challenge at hand...
... I just hope it doesn't get too miserably nerfed until after my current campaign is done :P
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Full Disclosure: Admitted Summoner Hater/Banning DM here.
...and as I have played the same its kinda hypocritical to ban it.
To me, it sounds like you should take your licks as the DM on this one - at least until it becomes a situation where the other players bring it up. If the other players bring it up, then you can talk to the offending player about it on their behalf. However, since you've played a similar build (and presumably, the would be offender knows this?), it is going to be a tough sell. And yes, it is hypocritical to already be looking at ways to reduce the power of the build...
Hopefully this will give you a bit of perspective on the DM/Player balance. I find that if I DM for too long of a stretch without playing, I begin to "swing the nerf hammer a bit too freely". On the flip side, if I play for too long without DMing, I being to complain about DMs "swinging the nerf hammer too freely", lol. The best solution for me has been running a campaign on odd weeks while playing in a campaign on even weeks - really keeps things in perspective for me.
Just my 2 cp.
the eidolon as presented, is not that great. hes got slightly better ac than a normal martial and alot less damage. SEcondly the guys in charge of the ship ar enot necessarily gong to let him do his chores as a giant mutant seal. the fact that h doesn't have hands arms or legs and has to use the base aquatic eidolon speed..
Really, as long as the player doesnt cheese out witht he characters stats (ie produce a cripple barely able to survive without he eidolon suit) it should be fine.
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To the people who ban summoners, do you ban wizards as well?
Nope. Wizards are still stuck with one action per turn and are slow to ramp up at early levels. Also, my groups rarely get to the high levels that allow wizards to hit their full potential. In fact, it has only happened once, and for a group with no arcane caster!
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Other then the D door, won't a Druid-multi-class be similar to a synthesist?
At lv 10, a Druid/Fighter/Bar/Monk, gets 28+ AC, can turn into a celestial or infernal template for DR and smite, have 5-6 natural attacks, able to pounce and rake, and deal a lot more damage?
Not to mention able to swim, fly or climb as needed. Also elemental forms.
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To the people who ban summoners, do you ban wizards as well?Nope. Wizards are still stuck with one action per turn and are slow to ramp up at early levels.
Your wizards don't get familiars to use wands?
I laughed at slow to ramp up
I've never seen this tactic used as the wizards I've seen played either took the bonded item or were too afraid of losing their favorite pet to risk making them a target.
And yes, slow ramp-up.
In other words: The way my group actually plays the game leaves wizards in a fine spot balance-wise, but summoners way above the fold. That doesn't mean that optimizers will see the same results, but it does mean that it makes summoner worth banning at our table while wizard is not.
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Other then the D door, won't a Druid-multi-class be similar to a synthesist?
At lv 10, a Druid/Fighter/Bar/Monk, gets 28+ AC, can turn into a celestial or infernal template for DR and smite, have 5-6 natural attacks, able to pounce and rake, and deal a lot more damage?
Not to mention able to swim, fly or climb as needed. Also elemental forms.
Druids get lots of versatility too, and are also widely regarded as overpowered (though usually shy of game-breakingly so). Unlike Synthesist the druid must actually pay for their good physical stats as Wild Shape only adds to their stats, it does not override them entirely.
Also, I don't believe the druid can actually use celestial/infernal templates on their shapings, and even if they can the shaping ability does not grant DR or smite evil, therefor they do not get it even if the form they are taking normally has it. The only shape that grants DR is the elemental form, which I will fully admit is a very good form, granting just as much strength as the rage of a 20th level barbarian at 12th level but for the entire day and without the need for all the fatigue/emotion shenanigans.
Either way, Druid is pretty comparably overpowered next to synthesist, but falls short of the power of the base summoner.
(I would probably argue that druids are OP too, but I don't feel like starting that thread.)
Also, I don't believe the druid can actually use celestial/infernal templates on their shapings, and even if they can the shaping ability does not grant DR or smite evil, therefor they do not get it even if the form they are taking normally has it. The only shape that grants DR is the elemental form, which I will fully admit is a very good form, granting just as much strength as the rage of a 20th level barbarian at 12th level but for the entire day and without the need for all the fatigue/emotion shenanigans.
To the people who ban summoners, do you ban wizards as well?Nope. Wizards are still stuck with one action per turn and are slow to ramp up at early levels.
Your wizards don't get familiars to use wands?
I laughed at slow to ramp up
Familiars are a LOT more vulnerable/squishy compared to eidolons.
A dead familiar cannot be replaced for a full week, even then at a cost. Eidolon on the other hand can be replaced the following day albeit at a half hp.
Other then the D door, won't a Druid-multi-class be similar to a synthesist?
At lv 10, a Druid/Fighter/Bar/Monk, gets 28+ AC, can turn into a celestial or infernal template for DR and smite, have 5-6 natural attacks, able to pounce and rake, and deal a lot more damage?
Not to mention able to swim, fly or climb as needed. Also elemental forms.
Not at all. The strength of Syntheist lies within the fact it allows them to dump most physical stats as a whole. Druid though, need to choose between focusing on melee (up physical stats) or casting (dump Str).
Also, a druid/fighter/bar/monk would have a horrendous half-life on his abilities, not to mention to-hit bonus would suffer as well. I'd also like to know where you got all the figures too. Since a monk's AC bonus doesn't apply when armoured, it's actually not that good once you're high enough in level to afford Wild armors.
In addition, to do enough damage (not to mention to-hit) while wildshaped, he'll need high Str- meaning his Wis will likely suffer (=less AC bonus from monkhood).
So yeah, a pathfinder druid isn't the CoDZilla of 3.5 anymore because to do the same he'll suffer from Multiple Attributes Dependency syndrome.
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There's a Feat for that.Also, I don't believe the druid can actually use celestial/infernal templates on their shapings, and even if they can the shaping ability does not grant DR or smite evil, therefor they do not get it even if the form they are taking normally has it. The only shape that grants DR is the elemental form, which I will fully admit is a very good form, granting just as much strength as the rage of a 20th level barbarian at 12th level but for the entire day and without the need for all the fatigue/emotion shenanigans.
Ah. Did not know that. That seems a bit strong for a feat... Darkvision, SR (weak though it may be), one smite evil per day and DR, all for a form you can literally camp in all day.
Yeah, whoever was writing that feat needs to take a long look in the "what have I done" mirror.
There's a Feat for that.Also, I don't believe the druid can actually use celestial/infernal templates on their shapings, and even if they can the shaping ability does not grant DR or smite evil, therefor they do not get it even if the form they are taking normally has it. The only shape that grants DR is the elemental form, which I will fully admit is a very good form, granting just as much strength as the rage of a 20th level barbarian at 12th level but for the entire day and without the need for all the fatigue/emotion shenanigans.
Ah. Did not know that. That seems a bit strong for a feat... Darkvision, SR (weak though it may be), one smite evil per day and DR, all for a form you can literally camp in all day.
Yeah, whoever was writing that feat needs to take a long look in the "what have I done" mirror.
eh, RAW you still don't get any bonus other than the darkvision and the +2 to confirm crit for wildshaping into a celestial/fiendish animal. Neither the base spell beast shape (darkvision) nor the feat (+2 bonus to confirm crit) specify that you gain DR, SR or energy resistance.
Since your animal form gain the template, not yourself, a druid with the feat shouldn't, RAW, get the bonus until otherwise errata'd so the feat includes 'you gain all the benefits of having that template'.
Planar Wildshape is cool, but it only affects animal shapes. I've never looked too much into Druid but I was under the impression that animal shapes became mostly obsolete as you leveled unless your DM was fine with you becoming a dinosaur. Besides that, darkvision isn't exactly rare and SR is also a double edged sword. The smite (even with cha probably being a dump stat, DR, and resistances are nice though... still it doesn't really bother me as a feat.
Planar Wildshape is cool, but it only affects animal shapes. I've never looked too much into Druid but I was under the impression that animal shapes became mostly obsolete as you leveled unless your DM was fine with you becoming a dinosaur. Besides that, darkvision isn't exactly rare and SR is also a double edged sword. The smite (even with cha probably being a dump stat, DR, and resistances are nice though... still it doesn't really bother me as a feat.
I don't know... plant shapes have been totally underwhelming to me so far and elemental shapes... seem to be more defensive/utility than direct mauling.
I always found the dire tiger to be the better form than the allosaur because being a Huge critter you tend to get stuck a lot :(
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Other then the D door, won't a Druid-multi-class be similar to a synthesist?
At lv 10, a Druid/Fighter/Bar/Monk, gets 28+ AC, can turn into a celestial or infernal template for DR and smite, have 5-6 natural attacks, able to pounce and rake, and deal a lot more damage?
Not to mention able to swim, fly or climb as needed. Also elemental forms.
Not at all. The strength of Syntheist lies within the fact it allows them to dump most physical stats as a whole. Druid though, need to choose between focusing on melee (up physical stats) or casting (dump Str).
Also, a druid/fighter/bar/monk would have a horrendous half-life on his abilities, not to mention to-hit bonus would suffer as well. I'd also like to know where you got all the figures too. Since a monk's AC bonus doesn't apply when armoured, it's actually not that good once you're high enough in level to afford Wild armors.
In addition, to do enough damage (not to mention to-hit) while wildshaped, he'll need high Str- meaning his Wis will likely suffer (=less AC bonus from monkhood).
So yeah, a pathfinder druid isn't the CoDZilla of 3.5 anymore because to do the same he'll suffer from Multiple Attributes Dependency syndrome.
In this case, the Druid in question is a melee focused druid, just 4 lvls of druid with the rest being fighter, monk and Barb
And it is a Druid-In-Name only build. It just uses druid to get wildshape.
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1) High AC - Wearing a +1 Dragonhide Full Plate with the Wild armor quality on it. It gives a base boost of +10 AC to a Druid in wild shape. Add the Natural Armor and other bonuses like a ring of protection, a druid can have very high armor in wildshape.
AC breakdown: 10 + 10(Plate) + 6(NA) + 2(Dex) + 1(Ring) = 29 AC in wild shape.
And even more if you have a Wild quality heavy wooden shield.
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2) Abilities, thanks to feats like Shaping Focus, a few lvls of Druid goes a long way.
Shaping Focus allows a lv 4 druid to wildshape as if he is a lv 8. Therefore with access to huge animals.
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3) To hit - At lv 10, your BAB is 8. You only lose 2 lvls of BAB. 1 from Druid and the other from Monk.
Class lvls BAB breakdown, 4 Druid (3 bab) + 2 Fighter + 2 Barb + 2 Monk (1 Bab)
With a high starting strength of say 20 via dumbing int and cha, at lv 10, Strength can be, 20 + 2 (leveling) + 4 (Rage) + 6 (wildshape huge) + 4 (Belt) = 36 Str
Therefore the too hit with a Amulet of Mighty Fist "Furious" +1 =
8(BAB) + 13 (STR) + 3( Amulet) = 24
Before additional feats like weapon focus claw...etc.
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4) Damage - With Feral Combat Training, this character can apply a style feat to 1 of his natural attacks. A common choice is claw for rake via pounce.
So by having 2 lvls of Master of Many styles, this character can have access to a damage boosting style like Dragon Style - Dragon Ferocity. Which allows him to do x1.5 in stead of x1 of his str with his claw attacks.
With a Str of 36 for a +13 damage, he can now deal +19 before adding weapon enchantment via amulet or the weapon roll. With an additional x0.5 for for the first claw.
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5) vs DR - Such a druid don't care about the other wildshape options, With animals alone, he can become infernal for DR vs attacks or Celestial for the means to smite enemies with DR.
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6) Number of attacks - The 2 lvls of Barb is not just for rage. There is a Rage power that gives you horns for a gore attack when you rage.
In a pounce, that is 1 bite, 1 gore and 4 claws (1.5x str) for 6 attacks.
To put it simply, while a Syntheist has both melee and spell casting, a Druid/Fighter/Monk/Barb combo can out damage and out hit a Syntheist in combat.
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ranger who knows what the favored enemy should be--will be just as deadly--ie always getting full attack because they don't have to move.
zen archer or archer
gunslingers--a 11th level dwarf gunslinger would be doing around 200-300 points of damage a round and hitting touch ac out to range 40
any class can be broken
saw a build on here for a goblin monk---had like a 33 ac--crane style to block one blow a round and roll with it feat where he could basically ignore any other attacks less than 25 hps
someone who wants to build a broken class will. heck take cleric or wizard---sacred summons, augment summons etc--even without sacred summons--once you get started--at 13th level you can be throwing 1d3+1 (and if you have a maximize rod--automatically 4--augmented celestial dire tigers a turn) Every boss mob in every AP will disappear in less than two rounds in a spray of red mist.
Quickwood with Multiattack. 60' reach. Who needs to move?
On a related note, can a druid wildshaped into a quickwood make dozens of root attacks per round?
This is because the 3-roots limitation is a specific extraordinary quality of Quickwood that plant shape does not specify. Therefore, rule as written, a druid in Quickwood form would gain as many as a dozen root attacks per round.... right?
I just find these silly little things so... droll. For example, a druid wildshaped as a flying squirrel would not gain the glide extraordinary ability and could be flying up up and away!
OK, no more rule-lawyering XD
This build would better in Skull & Shackle. I think the threat of keal hauling wouldn't be that scary with this character.
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@Secane: I don't disagree that druids can be, and maybe even often are overpowered. However, our group does not ban things lightly, and only does so if they *will* be overpowered, not if they *can* be overpowered. A summoner who doesn't even try will still, at low levels, outclass the rest of the party. They would have to actively avoid outclassing the party to avoid feeling overpowered. It is on this basis that we ban them, not because of the limit of their power.
(We can get away with this because no-one in the group is interested in "winning" by creating optimized builds. I'm the closest to that of the group, but I still only optimize within very specific and odd concepts, and have taken to doing less optimization lately even within that. This method of choosing to allow/ban things will not work for all groups, and our choice of keeping/banning something is not an indication of whether or not the class/feat/etc is balanced.)