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In our game last night, the party paladin ran amok by casting Magic Circle of Protection from Evil on herself, having the squishies (bard, sorcerer) gather next to her, and moving through the dungeon, letting the barbarian take care of anything that needed hand-to-hand TLC. (Side note: Lots of summoned demons and devils in the dungeon that they knew were going to be there, so it was definitely a matter of good prep work.)
To my astonishment, nothing in my board search answered the simple question: Was this legal? Once you've cast a magic circle on a willing target, can he/she then move around freely with the circle?
Thanks!
Yes, you can move around freely. Its a 10 ft. emanation from the creature touched. It only keeps summoned evil creatures out of the circle though, so it was smart but its not likely to come up again.
Thanks. I know Protection moves; I just wondered whether the circle was static.
It was definitely obliteration in this particular dungeon, but it was my fault for having the clerics rely on summoned creatures. Lesson learned!
Well...except for the material component, a 3ft circle of powdered silver. Unless you can figure out a way to carry that around with you, the magic circle shouldn't be moveable. And quote " If the circle of powdered silver laid down in the process of spellcasting is broken, the effect immediately ends. "
Why would the barrier state it moves with you then?
Nowhere in the description of Magic Circle does it say that a barrier moves with anyone. It does say that "Creatures that leave the area and come back are not protected."
Mate look up Emanation then come back please. Heres a shortcut, Ctrl+f Emanation.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic
Well...except for the material component, a 3ft circle of powdered silver. Unless you can figure out a way to carry that around with you, the magic circle shouldn't be moveable. And quote " If the circle of powdered silver laid down in the process of spellcasting is broken, the effect immediately ends. "
That's in the context of the alternate, inward-focused version, which honestly should be listed as a different spell, or at least with different spell information, as you don't typically cast that on "creature touched".
This is a problem I'm having with pathfinder. People're focusing on the mechanics/system more than the flavor of an ability.
Does it make sense that the thing protecting you from evil laying on the ground would have an effect that follows you around once you leave the circle? Now, if they were making ward locations using multiple circles as they moved (multiple components/spell uses as well), that would be another thing entirely.
In my book, it's fiction (flavor/common sense) over mechanics any day. Now... If they brought a wooden raft, cut a circle in it for the party to walk/push it along, and cast the spell with the silver on that perimeter they're moving, that would make sense. But they'd have to deal with a demon getting smart and tossing it aside after they get 3/4 of the way through enjoying their gimmick for a memorable fight ;).
If the designers had wanted the mechanics to match your interpretation of the flavor, they would most certainly have changed the target to "10' radius circle (see below)" or something like that instead of "creature touched". The default use of the spell is not the occult-standard "draw a circle on the floor and demonscan come in omg don't break the circle" spell you see in urban legends, Lovecraft, or The Dresden Files--it's basically a temporary aura on the target, descended from the old "Protection from Evil 10' Radius" spell from 2E (possibly earlier). The inverted version of the archetypal circle ("demons can get out") is part of the spell, but it's an alternate version pretty much unrelated to the version mentioned in the OP.
Should they have done it this way? Probably not, but it's their game. It's good that you've changed the spell to match the flavor of your campaign--so long as you informed your players before they get into the situation OP suggested.
Guys.
"An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres."
The point of origin in this case is creature touched.
We're talking about Magic Circle Speaker, the one referenced in the thread title.
I'm a little confused.
There's a spell magic circle against evil that is clearly not mobile. You can see it Here .
Then there's protection from evil and protection from evil, communal that can be seen Here and clearly is mobile.
Which one are you guys arguing about?
Magic circle against evil (version one) is mobile. Nothing in its description suggests otherwise, and if the text doesn't otherwise specify, lasting effects targeting a creature move with the creature. The only text suggesting that the text does not move with the creature is under the alternate method of using the spell (version two).
Although I tend to agree with Jake, the rules are the rules and as they are written you have to touch a called creature in order to bind it with the inward focused version.
But, hey, because of what the rules say you can also walk around with magic circle cast on yourself.
Magic circle against evil (version one) is mobile. Nothing in its description suggests otherwise, and if the text doesn't otherwise specify, lasting effects targeting a creature move with the creature. The only text suggesting that the text does not move with the creature is under the alternate method of using the spell (version two).I'm a little confused.
There's a spell magic circle against evil that is clearly not mobile. You can see it Here .
Then there's protection from evil and protection from evil, communal that can be seen Here and clearly is mobile.
Which one are you guys arguing about?
There is only one version of Magic circle against evil listed in the PFSRD. Are you sure you aren't looking at protection from evil? There are two versions of that one.
Magic Circle also flat out states that there is an alternate version of it and in that portion of the text is where it references the circle. Before then it makes no such reference.
Alter Winds: immobile 10-ft.-radius emanation
Alarm: 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a point in space
Ward the Faithful: Exact same wording as Magic Circle, but would make zero sense if you could not move the emanation with the creature touched.
Why would it have such a long duration if they didn't intend for you to benefit from it for a long period of time?
I'm not getting the problem. magic circle against evil is a third level spell that acts the same as protection from evil (unless you're using the alternate form to trap something). It doesn't allow you to move outside the circle you draw on the floor in silver.
If you want mobile protection cast protection from evil, communal. It's only a second level spell and though it doesn't have the duration it allows it's targets to move around.
I'm not getting the problem. magic circle against evil is a third level spell that acts the same as protection from evil unless you're using the alternate form to trap something. It doesn't allow you to move outside the circle you draw on the floor in silver.
If you want mobile protection cast protection from evil, communal. It's only a second level spell and though it doesn't have the duration it allows it's targets to move around.
The question isn't whether theres a better option for it, the question is whether you can move with magic circle against evil.
With communal being right under it, I would say yes as part of it's greater effect. Also it makes sense as it is
A 10ft radius emanation from touched creature.
It isn't instantaneous.
It wouldn't be a 10ft radius emanation from touched creature anymore if the emanation stayed after the creature moved.
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The Circle of Silver is listed in the spell components at the top of the heading.
Components V, S, M/DF (a 3-ft.-diameter circle of powdered silver)
The circle of silver is the FOCUS for the spell, whether it is used for protection or a trap.
Clearly this needs better definition and perhaps a separate spell listing for the trap version.
Are you saying that the divine focus is the source of the magic and tethered to it instead? Because that would bring up a whole array of other problems.
Because otherwise it is a focus for the casting of the spell and is useless thereafter unless your using the trap version.
I'm not getting the problem. magic circle against evil is a third level spell that acts the same as protection from evil unless you're using the alternate form to trap something. It doesn't allow you to move outside the circle you draw on the floor in silver.
If you want mobile protection cast protection from evil, communal. It's only a second level spell and though it doesn't have the duration it allows it's targets to move around.
The question isn't whether theres a better option for it, the question is whether you can move with magic circle against evil.
With communal being right under it, I would say yes as part of it's greater effect. Also it makes sense as it is
A 10ft radius emanation from touched creature.
It isn't instantaneous.It wouldn't be a 10ft radius emanation from touched creature anymore if the emanation stayed after the creature moved.
I don't agree. Not much more I can say on the subject.
http://paizo.com/prd/spells/magicCircleAgainstEvil.html
... I can't tell if people troll on this forum or not with their arguments XD. It's exactly that. I was thinking more along the lines of more modern variants of the Golden Dawn practices using the Lesser Key of Solomon where you have both a protective circle and a summoning circle. Both versions are mentioned in the spell description.
You mentioned Lovecraft. You can't possibly think this idea doesn't go all the way back to the writings of the bible and older (much older) texts that give power to symbols as wards, can you?
Not trolling. I used a reference more people were likely to get, as I doubt every reader here is into Goetia and the like.
There, a simple search shows that it's just a 3 foot diameter (which I'm almost willing to bet money on, they mean radius so it would be 10x10 (2x2 squares)) circle of powdered silver from your target.
That doesn't change anything about the spell text. As Scavion mentioned, ward the faithful uses the same spell parameters but is clearly not intended to remain stationary.
You're not looking at the text objectively; you're using your preconceived notion of how the spell should work based on your understanding of historical practices--to the point that you're even asserting that the material component line is a typographical error to justify your assertion. As written, the 3' diameter circle of powdered silver is just a material component/divine focus and has no real bearing on the 10' emanation that occurs when using the first version of the spell.
EDIT Please look to the upper right of the post corner, and click the tab marked "FAQ" to flag this question as a candidate to be answered by a Paizo staffmember in the FAQ.
Do so if you wish, but it'd be a request for errata, not clarification. The text is not ambiguous, so either it works as written or it's in error.
http://paizo.com/prd/spells/magicCircleAgainstEvil.html
... I can't tell if people troll on this forum or not with their arguments XD. It's exactly that. I was thinking more along the lines of more modern variants of the Golden Dawn practices using the Lesser Key of Solomon where you have both a protective circle and a summoning circle. Both versions are mentioned in the spell description.
You mentioned Lovecraft. You can't possibly think this idea doesn't go all the way back to the writings of the bible and older (much older) texts that give power to symbols as wards, can you?
Not trolling. I used a reference more people were likely to get, as I doubt every reader here is into Goetia and the like.
There, a simple search shows that it's just a 3 foot diameter (which I'm almost willing to bet money on, they mean radius so it would be 10x10 (2x2 squares)) circle of powdered silver from your target.That doesn't change anything about the spell text. As Scavion mentioned, ward the faithful uses the same spell parameters but is clearly not intended to remain stationary.
You're not looking at the text objectively; you're using your preconceived notion of how the spell should work based on your understanding of historical practices--to the point that you're even asserting that the material component line is a typographical error to justify your assertion. As written, the 3' diameter circle of powdered silver is just a material component/divine focus and has no real bearing on the 10' emanation that occurs when using the first version of the spell.
I didn't want to mention the M/DF thing because I felt it threw too much to the wind but since you mentioned it here goes.
What comes before the slash is the Arcane Version.
So following that thought, Wizards dont even have a circle anymore as the material components for the spell are annihilated. Are they still bound to the area where they marked the circle? Or did the silver powder become an ephemeral image of light that surrounds this mighty wizard and moves as he steps.
Although that explanation causes difficulty for the trap version since the material components disintegrate no matter what happens.
Although I tend to agree with Jake, the rules are the rules and as they are written you have to touch a called creature in order to bind it with the inward focused version.
But, hey, because of what the rules say you can also walk around with magic circle cast on yourself.
This spell has an alternative version that you may choose when casting it. A magic circle against evil can be focused inward rather than outward. When focused inward, the spell binds a nongood called creature (such as those called by the lesser planar binding, planar binding, and greater planar binding spells) for a maximum of 24 hours per caster level, provided that you cast the spell that calls the creature within 1 round of casting the magic circle. The creature cannot cross the circle's boundaries. If a creature too large to fit into the spell's area is the subject of the spell, the spell acts as a normal protection from evil spell for that creature only.
You have to cast magic circle against evil before casting the spell to call the creature. How will you touch the creature if you haven't called it yet?
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Speaker for the Dead, there are two versions of Magic Circle against Evil. Both are listed in the same spell description.
Version 1 is targeted upon a person and is an emanation. Since the target can move, and emanations are based on whatever they are cast upon, then Magic Circle against Evil (version 1) is mobile.
Version 2 is a circle, inscribed in a physical location, used as a trap for a creature being called (conjured).
Version 1 is the first paragraph of the spell.
Version 2 is the second through fifth paragraphs of the spell.
Summary: Magic Circle, cast upon an ally, is mobile. There is nothing in the rules or spell description that states it is not and there is evidence (ie: targeted emanation on a creature, not a point in space) that it is mobile.
Magic Circle, used as a trap for a called creature, is not mobile. There are rules in the spell that indicate this.
PridefulOne, nothing about Magic Circle against Evil prevents hoards of Demons, Devils, or any other Evil Outsider from attacking people. It prevents summoned evil creatures from entering the 10' radius emanation around the creature touched.
There are many ways to have Evil Outsiders present without summoning them. Calling, Portals, etc do not involve summoning.
Additionally, many evil outsiders have Spell Resistance and you must beat that to keep a summoned evil outsider at bay (admitedly, not that difficult since summoned evil outsiders are usually lower level).
- Gauss
Edit: One other note, for those of you arguing that there is a circle of silver and thus it should be immobile, there is no circle of silver for Version 1 if cast by a Divine spellcaster. The second version still calls for silver and that *probably* overrides the M/DF part of the material components.
Wow, I thought I'd really need to spell that out what Gauss just said, because apparently nobody was getting that. Good that Gauss saw this just before I was about to respond, saves me some minutes. ^^
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Magic Circle against Evil is mobile.
The best way to think of this is you spread the silver in the air around your target as you cast the spell. The spell sticks to your target and continues to emanation out from say target.
You can't use "LOGIC" to justify how spells work.
Think Bless Water. That spell need "5 pounds of powdered silver worth 25 gp" to bless "a flask (1 pint) of water with positive energy".
If you try to use "LOGIC" on Bless Water, then that 1 pint of water would have 5 POUNDS of Powered Silver in it... Try drinking that down.
If a reason is needed: Spells can "use up" the spell components. These components disappear during the spell casting.
So while Magic Circle against Evil does use a "3-ft.-diameter circle of powdered silver" as part of its spell components, that circle of powder can be used up and don't have to stick around after the spell.
On the 2nd "Alternate" use of Magic Circle against Evil, the powdered silver is mention as layed down. Given that this is an alternate use, it works only for this alternate use of.
magnuskn you can catch the next one. :)
- Gauss
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don't kill me. but teen wolf season 3 on mtv has probably the best instant spread of a powder in a circle i've ever seen on film. the shaman/druid in the show throws up black mountain ash or something, with visual effects, into a perfect circle around her. thats now how i picture characters casting this in under 6 seconds , to lay down the circle of silver powder.
i've often wondered how this spell remained mobile, with a fixed circle on the ground. heh. thanks for the clarification i can understand.
Spells with the AREA descriptor are ALWAYS immobile
Got a rules quote to back this one up? I've been reading the books front to back and back to front for years and I've never seen anything that said that (though it does make some logical sense).
Have you ever tried exploring a dungeon and fighting battles while everyone stays within ten feet of one of the other characters? It does not work well with turn-based movement.
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Well of course it's mobile. Summoned creatures are also able to try their spell resistance against it.
As Matthew says, it is INCREDIBLY difficult to make use of turn-based movement while using it. We are talking five-foot steps each turn and nothing else, while enemies are free to make use of any ranged powers they like.
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There is no circle of powdered silver. It gets destroyed in the spellcasting process. After that, the circle moves with the caster, as stated in the spell description.
They were surrounded on all sides, everywhere around them, the haunting glint of moonlit eyes, glittered and flashed in the darkness. It would not be long now. Drexel and his party stood in tight formation, he could feel his back against that of Vorador, the barbarian. It had been several years now, and Drexel had never known Vorador to back down from a fight, or shy away in the face of any adversary. But this was no duel, this was not combat. This was a case of being completely outmatched. It was just Drexel, his friends, 20 or so Worgs, and the deep darkness of a night that showed no sign of ending anytime soon. By morning, they would all be dead. Unless...
Yelling to his friends to buy him just a second of time, Drexel reached into the pouch, bound at his waist. Even as he reached for his material components, the Worgs darted out of the darkness to attack, one of them heading straight for Drexel. Down came Gamron's lucerne hammer, striking the leading Worg on the side of the head. Metal shimmered in the moonlight as his party drew arms to buy him time. Drexel focussed his mind, already recalling the incantations. He grabbed the bag of powdered silver, knelt down and started pouring out the valuable powder. Still kneeling, he turned on the spot, pouring a circle of silver, 3 feet in diameter, just like the arcane writings had said.
His mind became a still lake, blocking out all disturbance, as he weaved the eldricht sigils, and spoke aloud the words of power.
Anroc Arnos Vertatem! Arnos Vos Dertatem!
Crisp blue light of eldricht energy, darted and crackled on his fingertips like tiny bolts of lightning, and as the light intensified, the circle of silver combusted into golden flame, burning brightly for just a second, and then vanishing. From the emptyness in their wake, rushed a cirle of warm golden light. It expanded from the 3 foot circle, to a circle 20 feet across, and carried with it the momentum of a tidal-wave, knocking the Worgs back and throwing them to the ground, confused and shocked. He caught the eyes of his party, and saw their surprise. He sighed with relief. It would be an hour before the circle emanating from him waned. They'd have time to make it to the city of they ran.
-Nearyn
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Good stuff...
First, good example. This is the kind of thing people should see. It really clears up the intent of the spell, IMO. EDIT: I have ruled in the past that it does not move, which I thought was very odd, but the ability is listed in such a way that's difficult to quickly understand correctly, and keeping up the pace of the game is important to me when I'm GMing. I will now rule it this way in the future.
Second, forgive my ignorance (and poor google-fu, apparantly) but what series is this excerpt from? It's been a while since I read a good book...
Good stuff...First, good example. This is the kind of thing people should see. It really clears up the intent of the spell, IMO. EDIT: I have ruled in the past that it does not move, which I thought was very odd, but the ability is listed in such a way that's difficult to quickly understand correctly, and keeping up the pace of the game is important to me when I'm GMing. I will now rule it this way in the future.
Second, forgive my ignorance (and poor google-fu, apparantly) but what series is this excerpt from? It's been a while since I read a good book...
/BLUSH!
This is actually not an excerpt from a series. I wrote that to paint an example of how I thought the spell would narratively look and work.
I am very honored that you thought this was published writing.
Thank you
-Nearyn
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"Great magic," whistled Vorador, appreciatively. "What does it do?"
"It will give us a +2 to our armour class," said Drexel. "Assuming these worgs are evil, of course. It also protects us from mind control and improves our saving throws, but that's probably not relevant to this encounter."
"And will that bonus stack with my ring of protection?" said Gamron.
"No," said Drexel. "Now, let's waddle very slowly back to town. At 5 feet per round - that's about one kilometer per hour - we should be there within eight hours or so.
"Great magic," whistled Vorador, appreciatively. "What does it do?"
"It will give us a +2 to our armour class," said Drexel. "Assuming these worgs are evil, of course. It also protects us from mind control and improves our saving throws, but that's probably not relevant to this encounter."
"And will that bonus stack with my ring of protection?" said Gamron.
"No," said Drexel. "Now, let's waddle very slowly back to town. At 5 feet per round - that's about one kilometer per hour - we should be there within eight hours or so.
.......Hater ;P
It was a direct quote from a fantasy novel, honest!
Novel of the year, 3 years running somehow :D
hehe, good stuff.
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It's from the novel 'The Great Pathfinder Debates', the official adaption of these forums, which I wrote myself. In the next chapter, the fighter, the monk, and the wizard argue for two hundred pages about which one of them best. Then the paladin executes a goblin prisoner, and they argue for another two hundred pages about whether this was an evil act.
I am so tempted to continue this, but I'll refrain and let the thread keep on topic xD