I do not even know why people talks about fighters specializing in one weapons as it have to be a must. The fighter does not need to specialize to outdamage the ranger most of times (except when rangers is fighting agaisnt FE).
if the fighter is not choosing weapon focus he could choose lunge (in combat versatility), if he do not choose weapon specialization he could choose cornugon smash or something.
I can build fighters with pretty high DPR with the only specific weapon feat being improved critical.
Well, that Fighter would need Weapon Training at the very least if she wants to out-DPR any other martial class... And Weapon Training counts as specialization, IMO...
But to be fair, Fighters don't need the Weapon Focus/Specialization feat chain to deal more damage than any other class...
DPR is not a problem for Fighters, it's actually quite easy to make a Fighter who deals more damage than a Smiting Paladin, but it takes so many resources that the Fighter goes from "limited" to "completely useless in everything else and not very good with other weapons"
Specialization is not bad... Being so narrow-minded that you suck at everything else is... IMO, That's the REAL problem with Fighters... Well, that and the universal problems that affect all martials but hurt Fighters even more...
It is specialization but not a narrow specialization. Heavy blades have a lot weapon in there.
(...)
If the ranger can buy the armor he wants the fighter should be able to buy the weapon he wants.
I agree. I don't think Fighters usually have too much of a problem getting their favorite weapon. It may be a problem once in a while ("Oh no, that creature flies and I'm out of potions of Fly... There goes my Weapon Training, Weapon Focus and Improved Critical!"), but they are fine 90% of the time.
(although, at least IME, you switch weapons more often than armor, there are more different weapons than different armors and weapon-specific feats only apply to a single weapon, but there are very few armor-focused feats/abilitiies and that stuff usually applies to all armors of any given category at the very least, so depending on a specific weapon is more likely to be a problem than depending on an specific armor).Still... 90% of the time, Fighters will have their main weapon at hand.
They are also more flexible with armors. Rangers need mithral breastplate to move at normal speed and if they are dex based they need mithral to have a better AC.
Or... The Ranger can cast a single 1st level spell that boosts his speed by 10ft for 1h per level... Well, 1h per (level-3), but still... Pretty much the whole day.
Like I said, I don't think focusing on a single weapon will hurt them because they depend on a single type of weapon, but because feat chains are too long, so focusing on a single weapon when your class doesn't offer anything in any other area makes Fighters even more limited than usual.
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Fighter Weapon Training does actually cover pretty broad weapon groups not just specific weapons. And they get it multiple times too, allowing them to have ranged and melee options, which doesn't seem to get mentioned very often. Fighters do get multiple weapon training groups, and their huge number of feats means they can switch-hit with the best of them. I think Nivo's point about Schroedinger's Ranger having perffect gear while his Fighter can't seem to find his weapon of choice for the life of him is valid.
I'd say there situations where the Fighter is more versatile in being able to pick up a weapon and run with it than the Ranger. Ranger's, IME, are much more locked into one particular fighting style than Fighters. A fighter can go from sword and boarding with a longsword to THF with a falchion or Greatsword pretty seamlessly, while a Ranger who's chosen TWF for his fighting style is just going to have to pass on those sweet two-handers. And the bonus to hit for Weapon Training actually makes a Fighter less reliant on maintaining DEX and STR to stay competitive when transitioning from ranged to melee.
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*** I also find it confusing that you use the idea that fighters somehow need lower atts to maintain DPR when a ranger is the one able to ignore attribute minimums for TWF and non essential feats like PBS for archery/switch hitting
Because the fighter gets bonuses the Ranger does not, via Weapon Training. A Ranger who uses his bonus feats to skip out on DEX so he can TWF with an 18 in STR is cool, but he's got nothing going for him when he has to drop those blades and whip out a bow, because he's dumped DEX. The Fighter can at least assign his 2nd Weapon Training Slot to a ranged weapon and have some perks. His Gloves of Dueling will apply equally to this weapon as much as the original.
Also, Gloves of Dueling- 15,000 gp, applies to all weapons with Weapon Training, good pretty much forever.
Wand of Instant Enemy - 15,750 gp, good fifty times, then needs to be re-purchased, requires standard action to activate.
Weapon Training also works all the time, regardless of circumstance. Instant Enemy can be dispelled, or not work at all in an are of anti-magic, rendering the Ranger's advantage useless unless the enemy just happens to be one of his favored groups.
ANd how is the ranger less limited in this reagard?Every time someone points out that a fighter's ability only works when he has a particular weapon. I laugh.
Seriously? When would a fighter pick up anything else. His preferred weapon nets him a +6/8 or a +8/10 with gloves of dueling. There is not magic weapon in existence worth that kind of trade off. A fighter with a mundane greatsword is better off than that same fighter weilding a +5 great axe.
Unless your GM is going out of his way to deny you a greatsword, no fighter is limited by his weapon choice. Even if your GM goes out of his way to make sure 0 magical greatswords exist, you still are better off with a mundane greatsword than any magic weapon of appropriate power.
except against creatures with DR/Magic, DR/Material, Dr/Epic or Dr/Alignment
Incorporeal Creatures
monsters focused on sunder
monsters weak to bludgeoning or piercing damage
or monsters weak to specific magical properties, such as monsters that are staggered when hit by a shocking weapon for example.
the ranger can pick up any magic weapon the group happens to loot. and use it equally well
the fighter is stuck with their signature weapon or signature weapon combo.
Please post your 10th level fighter > meteor swarm build. I have a player who loves fighters and your post piqued his interest.
Someone posted it to me. It involved using two-handed fighter. It's in the martial thread where actual builds were posted.
ANd how is the ranger less limited in this reagard?Every time someone points out that a fighter's ability only works when he has a particular weapon. I laugh.
Seriously? When would a fighter pick up anything else. His preferred weapon nets him a +6/8 or a +8/10 with gloves of dueling. There is not magic weapon in existence worth that kind of trade off. A fighter with a mundane greatsword is better off than that same fighter weilding a +5 great axe.
Unless your GM is going out of his way to deny you a greatsword, no fighter is limited by his weapon choice. Even if your GM goes out of his way to make sure 0 magical greatswords exist, you still are better off with a mundane greatsword than any magic weapon of appropriate power.
except against creatures with DR/Magic, DR/Material, Dr/Epic or Dr/Alignment
Incorporeal Creatures
monsters focused on sunder
monsters weak to bludgeoning or piercing damage
or monsters weak to specific magical properties, such as monsters that are staggered when hit by a shocking weapon for example.
the ranger can pick up any magic weapon the group happens to loot. and use it equally well
the fighter is stuck with their signature weapon or signature weapon combo.
And wizards need a mental boost item and want to find spell books. But if your GM is screwing over the fighter than why not everyone else too?
Wand of Instant Enemy - 15,750 gp, good fifty times, then needs to be re-purchased, requires standard action to activate.
Wand? Who needs that many castings of Instant Enemy in a single day? Are all your encounters Boss battles? Buy 1 or 2 Pearls of Power and you're good to go!
And wizards need a mental boost item and want to find spell books. But if your GM is screwing over the fighter than why not everyone else too?ANd how is the ranger less limited in this reagard?Every time someone points out that a fighter's ability only works when he has a particular weapon. I laugh.
Seriously? When would a fighter pick up anything else. His preferred weapon nets him a +6/8 or a +8/10 with gloves of dueling. There is not magic weapon in existence worth that kind of trade off. A fighter with a mundane greatsword is better off than that same fighter weilding a +5 great axe.
Unless your GM is going out of his way to deny you a greatsword, no fighter is limited by his weapon choice. Even if your GM goes out of his way to make sure 0 magical greatswords exist, you still are better off with a mundane greatsword than any magic weapon of appropriate power.
except against creatures with DR/Magic, DR/Material, Dr/Epic or Dr/Alignment
Incorporeal Creatures
monsters focused on sunder
monsters weak to bludgeoning or piercing damage
or monsters weak to specific magical properties, such as monsters that are staggered when hit by a shocking weapon for example.
the ranger can pick up any magic weapon the group happens to loot. and use it equally well
the fighter is stuck with their signature weapon or signature weapon combo.
at least wizards can craft their own mental boosters
and while spellbooks can be stolen
there is this wonderful spellcasting class that picks a handful of options from the wizard list and doesn't require a spellbook.
And wizards need a mental boost item and want to find spell books. But if your GM is screwing over the fighter than why not everyone else too?
Not a good example... Wizards benefit from pretty much any scroll the party ever finds. They can also use the spellbooks of any wizard they fight, not only those with the same specialization. And they can research spells by themselves without having to spend feats in it.
Wizards needing Headbands of Int is counterbalanced by Fighters needing Belts of Str, not magic weapons. Wizards don't need weapons. Or even armor. They are much less gear dependent than any martial class, and they can craft their items without having to spend 2 feats for the benefit of less than 1.
Comparing Wizards to Fighters is not even fair...
You make fighters craft gear too.
In a game where the GM hands out random loot, purposefully not giving the PCs anything they want or need, then a sorcerer would do better. But that same game will have nothing in the way of balance in the first place.
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Wand of Instant Enemy - 15,750 gp, good fifty times, then needs to be re-purchased, requires standard action to activate.Wand? Who needs that many castings of Instant Enemy in a single day? Are all your encounters Boss battles? Buy 1 or 2 Pearls of Power and you're good to go!
So he's still burning 3rd level spell slots and standard actions just to do something resembling what the fighter does automatically, all day long.
Or I could die every so often and come in with a character with the correct gear using WBL.
That or the GM can try not to go out of his way to screw over one character.
This same GM could just never drop a magic composite bow either, completely screwing over a switch hitter ranger.
This same GM could just never drop an amulet of fist for the already in trouble monk.
This same GM could just never drop magic fullplate so both the fighter and the pally lose out.
This same GM could just never drop magic mithral armor screwing over the ranger for AC.
This same GM demands that you only play barbars, sorcerers, and divine casters because he wants "magic items to mean something".
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that same enemy that dispels the Instant can also dispel your gloves. Why has a martial that has medium armor prof dumped dex. Except for TWF their stats would be pretty much the same. Hell the DPR difference at 10th, using markus's numbers (on a 2 handed fighter) earlier were 22/34 vs 16 28(Ranger) or if I wait a round 22/34 vs 22/34.
Except, my Weapon Training is still up and running, while you just lost your Favored Enemy bonus. Which was the point. And if we are running with the same stats, I pull even farther ahead, because now I'm adding Weapon Training on top of my positive DEX and you're adding.... nothing.
Even your best case scenario presumes that you pull even with me, after you've spent a round buffing and I've spent a round actually making attacks. So I'm still a full round's worth of DPS ahead even when you manage to just catch up.
So to the point of this thread, there's a lot of things the fighter just does better than the Ranger. And most of them are combat focused, which generally, is what I want a Fighter for anyways. The two classes run congruent and have some overlap in what they can do in combat, but they don't do it the same way, and the Ranger doesn't do it as effectively. Considering the average encounter only runs 3-5 rounds, a Ranger who spends a round buffing to get to the same level as a fighter is a ranger who's contributed 1/3 - 1/5 less than the Fighter.
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So he's still burning 3rd level spell slots and standard actions just to do something resembling what the fighter does automatically, all day long.Wand of Instant Enemy - 15,750 gp, good fifty times, then needs to be re-purchased, requires standard action to activate.Wand? Who needs that many castings of Instant Enemy in a single day? Are all your encounters Boss battles? Buy 1 or 2 Pearls of Power and you're good to go!yes and that's without adding in his companion or the fact that when the fight stops the more optimized the fighter the more useless he is out of combat. meanwhile the ranger can help the party heal afterwards has enough skill points to cover 4 more skills(at max a lot better if you spread them out more) including being better suited for UMD
NO ONE IS SAYING THAT FIGHTERS ARENT THE KING OF DAMAGE HAVING BETTER DPR OR AC. There now we can move on.
Move on to... Making the point that the Ranger And Fighter don't do the same thing and thus the Ranger doesn't replace the Fighter, the point of the thread? I agree.
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i would just like to point out that the argument here is based on replacing the fighter with a ranger who is more useful out of combat at the expense of some in combat utility...am i the only person who realizes that this is just a form of archetype-ing? if you want a character who serves a specific role, you use a certain class as a base for that role. if the role you are going for is the front-line "tank" for the group, then (pardon my french) f*** the out of combat utility. that wasn't what you wanted to use him for.
if you want a character who can do all the our of combat stuff like picking locks and hoodwinking people into trusting the group, then your gonna want to start with a class that doesnt excel at combat such as a rogue, but has alot of skill points to make up for it.
if you are trying to make a character who can do EVERYTHING and make the rest of the group obsolete, then just get up from the table, find a hammer, and proceed to smash your fingers one at a time because you need to stop talking on these forums about a game that has classes and class balance. (and YES, this game is balanced properly. if you dont think so, you have a bad definition of balance) because what you are looking for is a god-class and a game designed to be played alone.
yes, and class can fill the "role" of any other class in this game if you design them to do so, but you will never be able to do EXACTLY what another class can do AND do what your original class was meant to do and be better then both of them build to do their intended roles.
you can have one piece of pie, you cant have the whole damned thing.
/endrant
I'm sorry that you only seem to be able to see black and white. All of the things you listed can be bought just not at more that 16k availability. This is the default option of the game. If equipment means enough that you have to kill your character isnt that an argument against that type of character.Or I could die every so often and come in with a character with the correct gear using WBL.
That or the GM can try not to go out of his way to screw over one character.
This same GM could just never drop a magic composite bow either, completely screwing over a switch hitter ranger.
This same GM could just never drop an amulet of fist for the already in trouble monk.
This same GM could just never drop magic fullplate so both the fighter and the pally lose out.
This same GM could just never drop magic mithral armor screwing over the ranger for AC.
This same GM demands that you only play barbars, sorcerers, and divine casters because he wants "magic items to mean something".
How about you read? Most of those items cannot be bought for under 16K. If your GM is dead set on screwing over the PCs then you might as well make him happy and die.
Because the kinds of GMs where a fighter would need to reroll to get gear, so would a paladin, a ranger, a magus, a wizard, a monk, a rogue, a cavalier, a samurai, a bard, an inquisitor, an alchemist.
Pretty much most classes are screwed over by this kind of GM in some way or another as to be completely non functional. This leaves you to play a select few classes that can function, or make sure that everyone can craft items.
I think everyone is forgetting that rangers are suppose to be replacing rogues not fighters.
I consider that a feature not a flaw.
And I would consider you wrong.
I think everyone is forgetting that rangers are suppose to be replacing rogues not fighters.
They can do quiet a bit of both. I'd rather have two rangers who built differently than a rogue and a fighter. Also, more animal friends. Never can have enough pets!
Fighters are great....period. The argument of low skill points is mostly moot....a fighter doesn't need to max out his skills...a ride check of +5 is perfectly acceptable for any but mounted combat specialists...same applies to Climb, Swim, etc...Unless you totally tank your Int you will have plenty of skills points to take care of your skill needs.
The other thing about the fighters Weapon Focus, Spec, Training route Is that it gives them more than enough of a BAB bonus to cover things like Combat Expertise, Power Attack, etc and still be able to hit easily even with Iterative attacks.
A well built fighter can power attack and Combat Expertise together and still hit better than others...this is what is so sweet about them.
All the martial classes have a "Flavor" to Them...smite/rage/favored enemy...a fighter is just best at dishing out damage in ALL situations. Just comes down to play style preference.
I disagree with almost everything you said. No one is trying to win the game,but the things a fighter can do so a ranger can do almost as well. The AC and DPR difference is miniscule before you take animal companion into account. Then you add in better saves, spells, skills, and class features and its a better class to bring along. If a class can do 90% of the...
i believe you are comparing a very specific ranger build to a very general fighter with no specific theme to his build.
go make an unbreakable fighter and comepare it to that rame ranger you are talking about and we'll see who makes a better front line "tank" for any senario. build a basic fighter with all crafting feats and see how "useless" he is out of combat....see where i'm going here?
My wife's fighter is probably our single most destructive force in the group. She even took Leadership for a feat. Do you know why? Because she had the feats to do it she wasn't starved on feats she had the versatility of choosing what she took.
She can also trip, sunder, or disarm at range she threatens 15 feet around and slant worry about provoking AoO for firing in melee it's amazing. And if paizo released a new feat for allowing dext to damage for bows she can take that one too.
If you allow leadership there's little reason not to take it. Its worth far more than one feat. You get dozens of followers with their own feats and class features for doing so...
Fighters are great....period. The argument of low skill points is mostly moot....
There's a lot of periods in there if all you wanted to say was fighters are great. Anyways, its not moot. There's more to do than ride, climb, and swim. You do want to talk to people, know things, and at least perceive things right?
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So he's still burning 3rd level spell slots and standard actionsSwift action, actually.
I was referring to the wands and pearls of power that people were referencing when the scarceness of the Ranger's 3rd level spell slots was brought up. I'm aware that Instant Enemy is a swift action cast. Wands and Pearls however, take a standard action to activate.
Which brings up the further point, that every spell a ranger casts to catch up to the fighter's combat ability, is a spell that isn't being used to heal, or contribute to the party's total resources, and narrows the gap of his out of combat utility that much further.
The Ranger's skill advantage is also somewhat offset by his need to accomodate some of his other class features. A ranger with an animal companion needs Handle Animal, if he wants to ride it, he also needs Ride, so that offests his skill advatange to a certain degree.
Actually every single one of those items is available at under 16k you just dont have as high a bonus as you would like. You can have +2 weapon +4 armor, 3rd level wands, +4 at enhancement, as well as +3 armor bonus items. Nobody is non functional, but uber specialized builds have a harder time. I consider that a feature not a flaw.I'm sorry that you only seem to be able to see black and white. All of the things you listed can be bought just not at more that 16k availability. This is the default option of the game. If equipment means enough that you have to kill your character isnt that an argument against that type of character.Or I could die every so often and come in with a character with the correct gear using WBL.
That or the GM can try not to go out of his way to screw over one character.
This same GM could just never drop a magic composite bow either, completely screwing over a switch hitter ranger.
This same GM could just never drop an amulet of fist for the already in trouble monk.
This same GM could just never drop magic fullplate so both the fighter and the pally lose out.
This same GM could just never drop magic mithral armor screwing over the ranger for AC.
This same GM demands that you only play barbars, sorcerers, and divine casters because he wants "magic items to mean something".
How about you read? Most of those items cannot be bought for under 16K. If your GM is dead set on screwing over the PCs then you might as well make him happy and die.
Because the kinds of GMs where a fighter would need to reroll to get gear, so would a paladin, a ranger, a magus, a wizard, a monk, a rogue, a cavalier, a samurai, a bard, an inquisitor, an alchemist.
Pretty much most classes are screwed over by this kind of GM in some way or another as to be completely non functional. This leaves you to play a select few classes that can function, or make sure that everyone can craft items.
+3 Mithril Light Armor (10K)
+3 Mithril Medium Armor (13K)
+2 Mithril Heavy Armor (13K)
+3 Mithril Buckler; (10K)
here you go
complete set of Magic Mithril Armors for less than 16K. all affordable in a metropolis.
if you are willing to give a craftsman 16K and Wait 16 days, then for and additional 1K, 4K and 9K respectively
you can have +4 mithril armor.
Except for the manuevers a ranger can do ALL of those things as well
Rangers can do maneuvers. They can even get pets who do it on an attack. That's pretty nifty!
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An opt fighter can do the same damage as meteor swarm at lvl 10. A more vanilla build managed like 71 DPR on a full-attack. Heavy opt druid can pull 79 unbuffed all day with wild shape. Opt blast sorcerer can pull 90 per round provided they still have slots.
10 lvl fighter
assume +4 str and +2 weapon for magic
Hit 10BAB + 2 feat + 2 weapon training + 7str - 3 power attack + 2 magic weapon = +20
Damage = 7 greatsword + 2 weapon training + 2 feat + 2 magic + 10 str + 9 power attack = 32
That's without gloves of dueling with boost that to +22/34
Thanks! This is the kind of thing I was looking for. I wanted to get a general baseline of the kind of damage that a martial class that was moderately unoptimized could do but my system mastery is pretty poor. So the above post, assuming, what, a 2d4 Falchion?, will do about 72 DPR on a full attack. We'll bump it to 74 with Gloves of Dueling because it looks like there is never any reason for a fighter not to have those. I'm miserable at DPR calculations, so let's just assume that both attacks will just hit. But as mentioned, there might be times in which the fighter's weapon will not be *optimal* for the job-- perhaps it's against a flying enemy or an enemy with DR/bludgeoning or a "no greatswords allowed" rule or something. This won't be common, so I'll just estimate that the fighter's class features will operate 90% of the time. So 10% of the time he'll lose those +4s to hit and damage, to just spitball a number. This will barely put a dent in his DPR on average, so it's honestly barely worth calculating.
We'll assume that the base stats are the same-- that there's no reason to believe that a fighter and a ranger will have different Str scores or access to different equipment-- this might be a poor assumption but it's what I'm going with. So the "special" fighter contribution to damage and to hit is the +2 Weapon Training Damage and +2 for Weapon Focus. So I'm trying to parse out "generic" martial damage, with no special class features thrown in. So Mr. Generic Martial loses 8 damage across 2 attacks because he lacks those spiffy fighter abilities, bringing his dpr to 66. He also loses +4 to hit with each attack, meaning he'll do about 20% less damage overall. This brings his DPR to 53 or so-- a well statted/equipped martial DPR with no special abilities.
Ok, so let's take that and add Ranger class feature damage to it. At 10th level a ranger has 3 favored enemies. That said, I have no idea how often FE comes up, but I do know that I am not bullish on it. I'll say a ranger has a 5% chance of encountering any one of his FE at any given time, so a 15% chance overall to do an additional +2 to hit and damage. This will not likely nudge the ranger's DPR over Mr. Generic's 53. I am not a big fan of FE. This will leave the ranger with about 53 dpr compared to the fighter's 74-- admittedly a baseline that is accurate for the fighter and shows disfavor to the ranger. Somebody can correct me on that if they'd like.
Next I'll go through the bestiary and look through CR9, 10, and 11 monsters; the sorts of things that would be reasonably difficult for a Level 10 character. I took a random sample of 20 of each and averaged their HP to ask how many full attacks it takes each class to kill the monster.
Full attack damage: Fighter: 74 Ranger: 53
CR 9: 115.79 damage average.
The fighter will drop a CR 9 monster in 2 attacks, while the ranger will not quite make it. But let's give the guy a break. Critical hits are a thing and weren't accounted for in these calculations, so let's say it nudges the ranger enough to drop it in 2 hits. If the enemies don't have DR. Which 40% of them did.
CR 10: 128.63
Again, the fighter takes 2 full attacks and the ranger takes 3.
CR 11: 145.47
Big difference here. The fighter will still eke out dropping an enemy in 2 full attacks, but the ranger is laboring. Setting aside critical hits, he'll drop an enemy in 3 full attacks on average... but if that enemy has DR then he won't-- he'll need 4 full attacks. Now, neither will the fighter, but when critical hits ARE taken into account then I'd expect him to get over the hump.
Ok, so this was obviously a pretty terrible comparison in a lot of ways, but to me it does give a baseline as to how *much* more effective the fighter is in combat. On average it seems like the fighter will drop a CR appropriate challenge ONE FULL ROUND earlier than the ranger will. Personally, I think this make the fighter substantially more effective in combat and does seem to imply that he can kick ass so solidly that he has a role that is difficult to replace. Also note that none of this takes defenses into account at all.
There are a lot of caveats, of course-- no equipment, no optimization, full attacks assumed all of the time, no buffs. But I'm not sure that any of those things will favor a ranger any more than it favors a ranger.