Hello everyone,
A while back I started a thread about making a fighter... hmmmm, lets say better though it is not entirely accurate - this was for a PFS character, and I wanted to give him some extra punch as to being more self sufficient on his own. Wiggling some extra traits, and juggling alot with his stats I kind of managed to get him where I wanted (mind you he is still only level 2, so in the long run he may turn out dissapointing) - in the end he managed a few social key skills like Diplomacy and Bluff, as well as some decent utility skills like UMD and even stealth. So far I have ran him through a couple of scenarios and I really enjoy being able to do something else besides climbing, swimming, intimidating and beating up people :D
But... I multiclassed him ranger - so there we have it, a character level 2 who I call a fighter but who is actually 50% fighter + 50% ranger. I read lots about the fighter in the forums, and I am aware that in most cases single class fighters really cannot stand on their own at later levels - I have never actually played a high level fighter, but I tend to believe it is so because they seem to be armed with no extra toolsets as they level, only more damage or more armor.
However, I am a sucker for fighters - don't know if this is a remnant from the old AD&D games when the sheer amount of feats made such a difference between fighters and the other classes, or if simply that is because fighter was the first RPG character I ever played many years ago - regardless of the reason, I like fighters, and I tend to look for a way to build them, so that they can be used and useful for many levels. The thing for me about fighter (and I am aware this may be a limitation on my part, since one can roleplay his character in whatever way one wants - if I want to play a rugged bard, or a coward paladin, I can) is that they are usually the ones that transmit me that rugged, soldier, beaten shield and dented armor feel, more than any other class, even the Ranger and/or the Barbarian.
So my thoughts were to make the best of what Fighters have - feats - use them to:
- buy additional traits and the multitude of uses these can bring (skills, saves, etc),
- buy straight up saves improvement,
- have more cash, so you can be better geared, etc, etc.
In the end, it seems to be possible but of course it takes its toll on the fighting capabilities - I tried building him up in levels and it seems that his fighting would become much more straightforward and less option ridden, because of the feat choices not taken for combat purposes.
I have the feeling I have seen the fighter debate discussed multiple times on the forum, so my mind wondered in a different direction - If I want to play a sword wielding combatant - lets call him a melee character - that will embody the spirit of the tough as nails, diehard, inspiring, brave and courageous soldier, where should I head to? Again, I am aware that your character is what you roleplay him to do, but my mind is trying to wrap around the fact that:
- There are mechanical aspects that push these very characteristics into play like Leadership or High Charisma, which do not really lend themselves to melee types that usually invest more in physical attributes;
- Likewise, how does a melee combatant hold his own at high levels? I admit it, I have lurked on some PbPs to see how different classes handle themselves at high level, and I have seen casters and archers completely obliterating the opposition, while more melee oriented characters - even with added perks or archetypes to keep on fighting below -100000 hp (:D), or to recover hp when somehow they deal some sort of fire damage (dunno exactly what this one was) - seem to be lackluster, not in flavour because some are beautifully played, but in terms of the mechanical contribution, even in the role they are intended to contribute the most - beating stuff up :D
- I admit I am inexperienced, hence I wanted to know peoples' opinions on this, but say even the Paladin with smite, or the inquisitor with bane, and now I am addressing people who have played high level paladins and/or inquisitors, at the end of the day, at high level, do they step up to the bad guy and beat them up senseless, or are they the ones taking the beating, hopefully sucking it up enough for the archer and the wizard in the back to destroy the BBEG?
- Maybe this is delusional, but is there a way to be an effective melee combatant after the opposition starts getting steep? Is barbarian with superstition and spell sunder the way to go, actually giving a melee class a more aggressive way to deal with magic?
I want to apologize for the long rant, but hey, just wanted to lay it out there and hear everyones' opinion.
Cheers.
Additional Traits is a great way to use an abundant resource to gain some ground in a traditionally weak area for Fighters. I'd do it at 1st, when you won't miss the feat as much.
Another thing to keep in mind is that not all skills need to be capped. Fighters may have limited skill points, but that just means it takes 'em a few levels to gain competency. You have to pay for all those feats and a full BAB some how... :-)
Big thing with Fighters - don't get caught up in the Jack of All Trades trap. Choose your method of damage-dealing and focus on it. The game has never rewarded generalists, rather it seems designed to frustrate them.
Fighters are much maligned on these boards and it is quite undeserved. All classes have a role to play and it is a team game after all. If the Fighter is lacking in social situations (more a player/RP issue then a class issue), then surely one of his teammates isn't.
Hello Ioaba, it makes perfect sense to use the FEat for additional traits at level one - it is definitely less painful at that point. Also, I have been playing RPG for a long time and I think I still have some vices or manneirisms from back in the day - I am stil sometimes prevented from doing dips in other classes because when I started playing, in the part of GM or player, doing a dip was always cause for roleplay or a strong reason behind it :D
After a while we started changing this a bit in my home group, and if someone wanted to do a dip on a more "straightforward" class like fighter, there wasn't much need for a big justification or explanation to gain some additional martial prowess. However dipping stuff like druid, or priest were, and sometimes still are things that kinda tickle me in the wrong way. Though more than once, as a GM I have assumed the attitude of "Hey, the guys wants to dip monk... Whatever, as long as this is what he wants for his character, who am I to say otherwise. It is a game after all"
All this to say that for traits, not only the feat spent seems to hurt less at the start of ones' adventuring career, but also it seems to make more sense to incorporate this into your background than suddenly gaining, for example, Bluff as a class skill :D
I also agree that the social aspect has much to do with the players' ability or will to ropleplay this ir that situation, but when it comes to the roll of the dice (regardless of how much bonuses you may get for good roleplay) the skill level still makes a difference, as well as it should.
I think you have hit a very sure spot - maybe I'm trying to do a lot of stuff all at once. Maybe the trick is focusing on being good at criticals, or maneuvers, or any other option, and use the remaining feats to fill up weaker areas of the fighter, which leads to me another question - What are actually the shortcomings of the Fighter..?
I've read the argument in favor of the fighter that he is consistent, he can go all day and all night long, since he expends no uses of this or that ability to get to the point when he needs to say - "We need to stop and rest". But then again, he does not travel alone, and the game is not like that - when your cleric or your mage need to stop because they ran out of spells, you are going to stop, so in the end, at that point, being able to continue is not that much of an advantage.
Returning to the point, what would you say the most lacking aspect of the fighter is? Does not deal enough damage to compare to a wizard, Inquisitor or Paladin? Not enough AC? Not enough versatility? The class abilities really do not compensate being a high leveled fighter? And how would one go about compensating that without falling into the trap of getting to the point that it doesn't actually pay off being fighter anymore?
I don't think I want to go too out there and start making fighter samples at different levels just to see where are they coming up short compared to other classes, which takes us to perhaps one of the most important questions - What IS the fighter role?
Depending on the campaign and GM, sometimes even though the resource dependent classes would like to stop and rest, they can't. Sometimes there isn't a safe place, or the clock is ticking on some plot device. That's when the good old fighter is nice to have around.
But I understand the frustration. I think 4 skill ranks/level would be nice at least.
The Fighter's party role is typically that of a one-man brute squad. At the end of the day, when everyone else is out of spell slots or pool points or what have you, the Fighter is still up and running. Sure, he can't match the high-level wizard spells. He's not supposed to. The Fighter is there to provide consistent damage over the entire course of his career.
the fighter, like every other class, is not limited to just one role... a lot of people do complain about their lack of versatility, but as ioaba pointed out usually what they're really complaining about is that one single fighter can't be good at everything. will a fighter have as many problem solving options as a utility wizard? no, but if you want to beat someone up (physically) its not a bad option. The two easiest roles for fighters to fill are dealing damage and taking damage, and there's a number of ways they can do either... even ignoring ranged combat- use a falchion with power attack and imp crit; or use a polearm and combat reflexes (if you can get an enlarge person you'll hit extra hard and threaten a huge area); or 2wpn fight- only the fighter gets enough feats to really pull off sword-and-shield dual wielding, and with the high dex you need (plus the shield bonuses) you'll have a pretty solid AC as well; and you get so many feats that things like dodge and toughness can provide little bumps to your survivability without feeling like you're sacrificing something (plus armor training is pretty solid).
beyond those default roles, though, you can pretty easily pick one other role to fill... it won't be "skill monkey" or "healer", but with one trait and a feat or (or three) you can be really good at any one skill. ones tied to a physical stat, like stealth, are easy- others may require some points in 'sub-optimal' stat, but it all comes down to what kind of character you want to play. Putting a few points in your Cha opens up all kinds of choices... social skills obviously; or you can take the trait to make UMD a class skill (with +1 bonus) and skill focus[UMD] to use wands and scrolls for healing or utility; or take the trait for stealth plus skill focus and then you can pick up eldritch heritage and imp e.h. for the shadow bloodline and your fighter will have hide in plain sight (and a short range teleport)- spending 3 feats and a trait to get HiPS would be costly for most classes but an 11th level (the level you can take Imp EH) human fighter is like 'that's cool, i wonder what to do with my other 10 feats', lol
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This character is my PFS fighter. Extra traits at level 1 has given him access to diplomacy (something I wanted for this character) and a bunch of other stuff including a plus to intimidation to make up for my 8 CHA. LOVING him as a character. He hits hard thanks to power attack and can shield slam if needed (I am going for sword and board - picking up TWF at level 4).
Fighters can be more - Paizo made martials better, no mistake but in retrospect it would be nice if 1/day per level fighters could use a feat that they have access to as a free action. So a fighter 1 with power attack COULD use cleave one round... or unarmed combat... or quickdraw etc.
Fighters are still pretty cool and I do love them.
EsperMagic reminded me of Use Magic Device.
Getting UMD is easy, just don't dump CHA and maybe take the Dangerously Curious trait. While it might be hard to find a good time to take Skill Focus: UMD, it would probably be worth it. A lowly Fighter could be just as good as Rogue in terms of wand-use.
Adding wands to a Fighter's repertoire is good stuff. You're by no means replacing the primary caster (or even the party Rogue), but you're certainly aiding her in resource management.
We have rants about Fighters and martials just about everywhere.
We have rants about Fighters and martials just about everywhere.
Yup - Fighters get no love 'round these parts.
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Archers do enough damage to be highly relevant at high levels. I love CMB fighting types, and at high levels grapple-trippers will rarely lack an activity to do. The key is keeping CMB at insane and relevant levels.
Paladins will become very relevant @ high level for damage output.
For straight damage output, fighters with archery as an exclusive speciality can deal massive damage; otherwise the worst archetype at low levels (crit fighter) becomes insanely relevant @ high with all of the statuses opponents get (sadly, you can't get the chance of inflicting these above 30% / hit).
So just look beyond straight damage (or accept how necessary being a ranged attacker is @ high level). Remember, swinging a two-handed weapon really only requires Power attack, and with duelist gloves your bow get +3 to hit / damage even as a secondary speciality.
The Fighter's party role is typically that of a one-man brute squad. At the end of the day, when everyone else is out of spell slots or pool points or what have you, the Fighter is still up and running. Sure, he can't match the high-level wizard spells. He's not supposed to. The Fighter is there to provide consistent damage over the entire course of his career.
This is one of the points that actually grates on me - that would be a role that I could easily see well adapted to the fighter BUT if the role would be of the brute, he would have to be on par with most the other brutes, and it would seem that this is the case almost only if he goes full archery spec.
On the other hand, when everyone else is out of spell slots, it doesn't matter if the fighter can go on or not - the group will stop (unles it cannot as Grimmy referred).
Putting a few points in your Cha opens up all kinds of choices... social skills obviously; or you can take the trait to make UMD a class skill (with +1 bonus) and skill focus[UMD] to use wands and scrolls for healing or utility; or take the trait for stealth plus skill focus and then you can pick up eldritch heritage and imp e.h. for the shadow bloodline and your fighter will have hide in plain sight (and a short range teleport)- spending 3 feats and a trait to get HiPS would be costly for most classes but an 11th...
Now... UMD is indeed something that is close to my heart - I've always found it should be easy enough to grab the trait for it and go with UMD for this or that combat buff, or even a utility spell like stealth assistance or whatever. I never realy got the opportunity to test it though - from my perspective, it lends a VERY nice potential arsenal to what the fighter is able to do, but I have never tested it with an high level fighter, neither in terms of actually making the DCs to activate the items and also in terms of action economy to indeed use the magic item - I would say that at least once at the start of most combats he should be able to buff himself some, which is always good.
Eldritch Heritage is something that I REALLY hadn't considered yet (though I had marginally pondered the Dragon Disciple) - this opens another world of opportunities...
Pump your cha out of the mental stats and take the eldritch heritage line of feats? A draconic bloodline fighter who swings his great sword for massive damage ad breathes fire/acid/ice/lightning...is pretty sweet
Draconic Bloodline heh...? I'm gonna look into it ;)
This character is my PFS fighter. Extra traits at level 1 has given him access to diplomacy (something I wanted for this character) and a bunch of other stuff including a plus to intimidation to make up for my 8 CHA. LOVING him as a character. He hits hard thanks to power attack and can shield slam if needed (I am going for sword and board - picking up TWF at level 4).
Fighters can be more - Paizo made martials better, no mistake but in retrospect it would be nice if 1/day per level fighters could use a feat that they have access to as a free action. So a fighter 1 with power attack COULD use cleave one round... or unarmed combat... or quickdraw etc.
Fighters are still pretty cool and I do love them.
This character is, in terms of concept, very close to the one I created for PFS also, though I ended up multiclassing him ranger, simply because it added Perception as a class skill, Favored Enemy, and skill points - yep, I know... I am greedy.
Its this guy -> Telurion
I have been enjoying him immensely also.
EsperMagic reminded me of Use Magic Device.
Getting UMD is easy, just don't dump CHA and maybe take the Dangerously Curious trait. While it might be hard to find a good time to take Skill Focus: UMD, it would probably be worth it. A lowly Fighter could be just as good as Rogue in terms of wand-use.
Adding wands to a Fighter's repertoire is good stuff. You're by no means replacing the primary caster (or even the party Rogue), but you're certainly aiding her in resource management.
Yeah, I am about to write off UMD as a definitive yes in my fighters' book :D
How about this stat spread?
STR 18 -> He needs to deal damage or else...
DEX 16 -> Still on the fence here, but if Sword and Board and wanting to go Greater Two Weapon Fighting he'll need this
CON 12 -> I don't like this low but to be able to get everywhere else...
INT 8 -> Even with traits giving him additional class skills he will be hard pressed to have the points to spend with this int
WIS 10
CHA 14 -> Too high?
So just look beyond straight damage (or accept how necessary being a ranged attacker is @ high level). Remember, swinging a two-handed weapon really only requires Power attack, and with duelist gloves your bow get +3 to hit / damage even as a secondary speciality.
Does this mean there is something broken with the melee combatants?
This might be more relevant in PFS, but if I bring a bard to the table stacked with charisma and social skills, and then have to spend half the session arguing with the fighter about who gets to Diplomacy the guards, I might be a little frustrated as well.
I think that whenever you are looking at ways to make a fighter better, whether through options or houserules, you need to make sure you aren't stepping into a role that is hard to split, only worse at it.Traditionally, you only need one party face, a second face just means they have to split their screen time. There are times when the party gets split up or the primary face isn't available, but if every social interaction turns into, "My turn, no my turn," it gets old fast.
In addition, if the party face has a +13 and the fighter has a +10, then you run into problems as well. Either the fighter is able to make the checks, in which case the face gets frustrated, "why did I bother to focus on Diplomacy?" Or the fighter fails, in which case, "why did I even try?" and/or you have times where the face thinks, "This role isn't too hard or doesn't matter too much, I'll let the fighter have it, in which case we go back to the fighter being frustrated for even trying. Or the final option, the fighter tries and fails, in which case the face gets frustrated because they know if they had been able to roll they would have succeeded.TLDR; sometimes think about what role you are trying to replace.
This is something I have given a lot of thought, and I totally agree with you that overstepping may become a problem...
In fact, this is a Team game, and everyone should be willing to play their part - the fighter would probably have to invest too much, and lose from his combat capability to stand up to a bard in diplomacy, or a rogue in finding traps - I did it so in the character above for PFS, because it is PFS and you never know which group you will find.So this reinforces my idea that I am probably trying too hard when it comes to giving Fighters additional skills - UMD does seem like a nice idea to me at first sight, and perhaps an additional appropriate knowledge but ponder this - Lets say for argument sake I am trying to build a grizzled old veteran of many combats that is now on a particular campaign - call it an AP, a campaign, a scenario, whatever :D
Now imagine also I want this guy to take Leadership somewhere along the road - he has been through much in his life, he is experienced at dealing with people, and since in this campaign I want him to be able to take people along with him, Dimplomacy makes sense right?
I guess these decisions are to be done point by point of course, and you may be right on the money when you say that taking knowledges or Diplomacy and some other skill options may actually mean overlapping, and again maybe I am stretching him too thin without any need ;)
On the other hand, there are APs that take into account relationships with NPCs and some measure or other of gaining reputation or similar with a population or group - having Diplomacy may mean a whole book in which you can actively participate (no, I don't think Intimidate replaces Diplomcay at all :D)
the issue with melee combatants that (i think) thalin was talking about is that in order to really kick out damage you need to be able to take full attacks, but if you have a bunch of potent attacks things are going to tend to move away from you (forcing you to move and attack once instead of full attacking). the easiest fix for this is to focus on ranged combat because then you don't need to move (just full attack from slightly farther away). there are, however, other options: careful positioning can make it very difficult for most things to get away (or at the very least score you an AoO) and the Stand Still feat makes that even more effective, teamwork can pin things down (ie get a casty to drop a wall spell or cast a debuff that limits/prevents movement), and the step up feat chain can keep you in melee range; if you want to move and attack you can also try building for big single attacks... the vital strike feats are designed for this (and furious focus is extra good for that build), or the cleave tree or whirlwind attack if your moving toward/into crowds.
mathematically these builds might not keep up with the archer (or blaster-casty) but they're fun and can let your fighter stay relevant into high levels (plus the glass cannon that's out DPSing you is always gonna be pleased to have a tough guy to hide behind- just don't get dominated and kill him... iron mind is not a waste of a feat, and wis is never a good dump stat, lol).