What's with the lack of respect for martials?


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There are plenty of other caster vs martial topics on this board and I'm not interested in this being one. Reading those though, I did notice something that I thought needed a new discussion.

Martial work, that is dealing HP damage to things so that they actually die, is called “janitor work” or “clean up”. This is meant to imply that it’s somehow lesser to the caster who cast a spell to make that job easier. Where did this idea come from?

It makes no sense to me. You’ve heard the phrase “You set them up, I’ll knock them down.”? Well that’s a team effort. This is a team game. And it takes both sides of the equation. I’ve been in a party that was all magic set up with no melee knock down. It wasn’t pretty. It wasn’t pretty at all.

Eventually the Wall comes down, the Pit comes up, or the Hold wears off. Someone needs to kill the enemy before that happens. It’s an essential part of the puzzle otherwise all the magic user has done is delayed his own death.

So why is there no love for the Fighter? His role was invaluable. It was certainly no less valuable than the Wizards. So how about we give some credit where credit is due. Both roles have their place. Both roles are needed. And no role deserves to be crapped on over the other.


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totally agree that martials deserve a lot more respect then they are given. I personally love rolling as a barbarian but that's just because my combat tactics are really simple... i hit it until it is dead. Fighters have a myriad of weird feats and ways of attacking that i don't want to bother with. still they defiantly have there place in nearly every party.

The Exchange

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My personal favorite, the Fighter, gets no love a-tall - up until there's a charge to intercept, a manticore in the wizard's personal space, or a solution that the right spell would fix in a jiff - except that it wasn't memorized, was already used, or is tucked in a scroll that the wizard is too nauseated/dazed/paralyzed/asleep/decapitated to retrieve. The poor guys are regularly bad-mouthed, despite the fact that the fighter's specialty (suddenly being confronted with enemies of unexpected or unknown type and deciding that mayhem is going to work better than sweet persuasion) is probably the most common plot twist in the game.

I try not to take it too personally. A football team with eleven quarterbacks or a band with four lead guitarists doesn't work out - despite the sex appeal of being the guy who calls the plays or croons the lyrics.


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Because in many cases it really IS janitor work for the martial guys.

They're just mopping up the sleeping/immobile/heavily debuffed enemies the casters made a non-threat with their spells.

Which I find to be very BORING. Most of the fun I've had in this game as a martial character has involved either no casters or ones that don't pull tricks like that.

I don't enjoy "janitor work". However "invaluable" my coup de grace on the sleeping giant was, it doesn't change the fact that I had little to do with winning that encounter. It was won when the caster pulled a Sleep spell out of his ass.

That's why people use the phrase. Not as a jab at martial characters so much as a statement of disgust at the way casters can sometimes trivialize encounters.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Oh man, there's no way this isn't going to turn into a "casters vs. fighters" thread. Just sayin.

I don't think it's about disrespect, exactly. If I'm playing a wizard and there's a bard in the party, I'm probably not going to put a lot of skill points into Knowledge skills. It's not that these skills aren't important, but it's something of the bard's schtick, and he's going to be better at it than I am.

With combat it's not really like that. You can argue about whether Control spells are more effective than damage, but they sure as hell aren't a lot less effective than damage. So when I look at other party members, I'm trying to think of what they bring to the table that my wizard doesn't-- or at least what I can't do without significant effort.

Also, The Fighter isn't really the standard to flock around for the "pro-martial" crowd, IMO. Paladins, Rangers, and Barbarians are core-classes that are all kind of awesome and bring a lot to the table that spellcasters can't easily replicate.

Paladins are tough to bring down because of great saves and do sweet bucketloads of damage against most enemies. Great package! They don't get a lot of skill points, but their high charisma makes them terrific at social situations, giving them good out-of-combat utility. Plus they even get some nice spells. No problems with a paladin at all.

Rangers get terrific skills and do a lot of damage. I don't have one in the party, so I can't speak from a lot of experience, but they're good in combat and have a lot of utility outside of combat. Plus, again, nice saving throws (two "good" saves and will have a reasonable Wis score).

Never played with a Barbarian, but they get a reasonable amount of skills and are tough to bring down in combat.

Personally, the problem isn't with "martials", the problem is that The Fighter is pretty limited in what it can do. Sure is good in combat... but every class is pretty good in combat. What other bases can they cover? As a wizard who can (theoretically) "do anything", any base the Fighter can't cover is a base that I feel I have to deal with, so the fighter's poor Will save (gotta pack Protection From Evil in case the fighter's Dominated) and poor skills put some pressure on me. Other martials have a bit more utility and bring a bit more to the table, at least IMO.


Essentially, there seems to be an assumption that casters will only have to do 3-4 fights each day, the enemy isn't very numerous in these fights, the enemy won't be prepped to the gills with magical buffs like them, and the terrain isn't actively hostile or anything to the PCs. Which I don't understand, since most of the adventure paths done by Paizo seem to have at least one or two fights per book that go against that formula and those are built for a simple 4-man, 15 point-buy party. But with that assumption in place, a caster can go nova and look fantastically effective while the martial class, built to last over a long day of combat, looks weak by comparison.
Also, there seems to be a small minority of people who play casters that presume all high-end casters will have fantastic save DCs, very high spell penetration, and never fail any but the most brutal concentration checks thus making those concerns hyperbole when it comes to theory-crafting balance. Adds to the misconception that spawns the 'martials are underpowered' argument.


Some people like martials even fighters others like casters. Trying to get everyone to get along or see eye to eye. Not going to happen.

People like different aspects of the game.


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why does this thread keep happening


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Lamontius wrote:

why does this thread keep happening

Because the gods are fickle, spiteful bastards and we rolled a natural 1 on our save vs screwed.


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Martials are only underpowered if the person playing the caster is somewhat competent.


This thread makes me wonder. Has anyone made a purely Fighter/Wizard party? It would actually be possible what with Archetypes now.


slade867 wrote:
Martial work, that is dealing HP damage to things so that they actually die, is called “janitor work” or “clean up”. This is meant to imply that it’s somehow lesser to the caster who cast a spell to make that job easier. Where did this idea come from?

Because literally everyone can do what martials do (deal damage, use skills, take feats), while martials absolutely can't do what the others do.

Any witch worth their salt carries a scythe to coup de grace the guys they sleep. Clerics, Druids, Oracles, Inquisitors, Bards, Magi, Summoners, and even some rare few Sorcerers/Wizards can deal respectable damage. It doesn't have to be as high as a Fighter or Barbarian when the enemy is crippled.

DPS is just not that important. Even MMOs know that--they had to invent Rage Timers and things of that nature to give DPS responsibility, rather than the junk job the unskilled masses do.

So, yeah, it is a lesser job. It's not unique, it's not important or impressive--it's easy, and it actually means less in the long run than the spell that enabled them in the first place.


I have actually used that exact metaphor on the boards here, but it isn't meant to imply melee types don't have a valuable role. We are playing the PFS season 5 finale next week and I got worried when our primary damage dealer said she might have to back out.

I think of it kind of like the jests in real life about "grunt work" and conversely "real man's work"....A little fun with societal roles.


I'm currently playing a 9th level caster cleric. I love him but he's really not impressive when he's out of spells, channels, and SLAs. He got shredded by a nasty ghoul/ghast/something in melee. In that same circumstance, I'm thinking a fighter (high strength, power attack, heavy armor) would have done a lot better. Kind of a corner case (bad random encounter at the worst time) but pure martials have their appeal.


slade867 wrote:

There are plenty of other caster vs martial topics on this board and I'm not interested in this being one. Reading those though, I did notice something that I thought needed a new discussion.

Martial work, that is dealing HP damage to things so that they actually die, is called “janitor work” or “clean up”. This is meant to imply that it’s somehow lesser to the caster who cast a spell to make that job easier. Where did this idea come from?

It makes no sense to me. You’ve heard the phrase “You set them up, I’ll knock them down.”? Well that’s a team effort. This is a team game. And it takes both sides of the equation. I’ve been in a party that was all magic set up with no melee knock down. It wasn’t pretty. It wasn’t pretty at all.

Eventually the Wall comes down, the Pit comes up, or the Hold wears off. Someone needs to kill the enemy before that happens. It’s an essential part of the puzzle otherwise all the magic user has done is delayed his own death.

So why is there no love for the Fighter? His role was invaluable. It was certainly no less valuable than the Wizards. So how about we give some credit where credit is due. Both roles have their place. Both roles are needed. And no role deserves to be crapped on over the other.

It's not a whole lot of fun for the fighter's player to cut open someone who has been held.

In addition, what is the fighter's role? It boils down to have lots of hit points, be hard to injure, and deal damage. Casters can do all three past a certain number of levels plus a ton more. Obviously it's not as easy for them - you only have so many slots per day (barring cheese) and you don't have a high AC (or Mirror Image up) if caught by surprise or hit by Dispel Magic - but it's possible. If you play "smart" enough, you can make surprise a pretty rare thing too. Or just Charm Monster a bunch of meatshields.

Despite the lack of "respect" that blasters get, I find blasters to be really scary as a recent PF player. Getting blinded or stunned or what have you was scary, but then so was being hit by Fireball. (I'm guessing monsters have lots more hit points than PCs.) It's not like our group had universally low Dex and Con scores either.


slade867 wrote:
Where did this idea come from?.

The game isn't exactly built pro martial. Its just the way the game was made. Its because martials just happen to do the things people say. They do in fact do good damage, they do tend to lack the utility and options of spells, and after a well placed color spray they do work as a clean up crew.

Lamontius wrote:
why does this thread keep happening

Denial, cloning machine, wizard did it; who knows!? I like the second one though.

Sovereign Court

Rynjin wrote:

Because in many cases it really IS janitor work for the martial guys.

They're just mopping up the sleeping/immobile/heavily debuffed enemies the casters made a non-threat with their spells.

Which I find to be very BORING. Most of the fun I've had in this game as a martial character has involved either no casters or ones that don't pull tricks like that.

I don't enjoy "janitor work". However "invaluable" my coup de grace on the sleeping giant was, it doesn't change the fact that I had little to do with winning that encounter. It was won when the caster pulled a Sleep spell out of his ass.

That's why people use the phrase. Not as a jab at martial characters so much as a statement of disgust at the way casters can sometimes trivialize encounters.

So if the martial crit kills the enemy first round as a caster I should be upset?


How is that at all the same thing?

But yeah, a fight ended in one round via crit is pretty boring too.

Thankfully, crits are fairly rare, and them completely ending encounters is even rarer.


Pan wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

Because in many cases it really IS janitor work for the martial guys.

They're just mopping up the sleeping/immobile/heavily debuffed enemies the casters made a non-threat with their spells.

Which I find to be very BORING. Most of the fun I've had in this game as a martial character has involved either no casters or ones that don't pull tricks like that.

I don't enjoy "janitor work". However "invaluable" my coup de grace on the sleeping giant was, it doesn't change the fact that I had little to do with winning that encounter. It was won when the caster pulled a Sleep spell out of his ass.

That's why people use the phrase. Not as a jab at martial characters so much as a statement of disgust at the way casters can sometimes trivialize encounters.

So if the martial crit kills the enemy first round as a caster I should be upset?

How do you get that out of what Rynjin said? I can't find how you would get that casters don't want martials to be successful or kill things.

Edit: I should probably add that a lot of times when I see people complain about something related to martials its because they want them to do better, not because they want to call them crap or anything.


Pan wrote:
So if the martial crit kills the enemy first round as a caster I should be upset?

Actually yes. Sitting there while the party deals with the entire encounter is going to be boring too.* Fair is fair. It's very rare for a martial to do that past the first few levels. (At least it should be. Pretty sure paladins smiting and some weird charge/rage/lance/whatever builds actually let you do this at all levels. That's not good for the game either.)

*How many fighters can kill an entire encounter in one round, barring shenanigans?


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mplindustries wrote:
Because literally everyone can do what martials do (deal damage, use skills, take feats), while martials absolutely can't do what the others do.

I don't want to get into the so called "casters beat martials out of combat argument". Besides it's crap anyway. Let's keep it to in combat.

So who is this hypothetical magic guy who has both a slew of control spells AND a slew of damaging spells AND has them both all day long?

mplindustries wrote:
Any witch worth their salt carries a scythe to coup de grace the guys they sleep. Clerics, Druids, Oracles, Inquisitors, Bards, Magi, Summoners, and even some rare few Sorcerers/Wizards can deal respectable damage. It doesn't have to be as high as a Fighter or Barbarian when the enemy is crippled.

Is that Witch going to eat all the AOs that walking to that one sleeping enemy is going to provoke from all of his friends? As for the "crippled enemies", I've played lots of Pathfinder. I'm sure you have too. And the truth is enemies MAKE their saves. They make them all the time. Slowing 2 out of 4 enemies still leaves two normal and two NOT dead. Take too long to kill the fresh ones because you can't hit crap and do mediocre damage and the Slow guys go back to normal.

mplindustries wrote:

DPS is just not that important. Even MMOs know that--they had to invent Rage Timers and things of that nature to give DPS responsibility, rather than the junk job the unskilled masses do.

So, yeah, it is a lesser job. It's not unique, it's not important or impressive--it's easy, and it actually means less in the long run than the spell that enabled them in the first place.

Melees often don't NEED the magic user. They'd win regardless even if it cost more health. Casters NEED someone to block when that Dire Tiger charges. It's even worse if it's an ambush attack they didn't have time to prebuff for.


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Rynjin wrote:

Because in many cases it really IS janitor work for the martial guys.

They're just mopping up the sleeping/immobile/heavily debuffed enemies the casters made a non-threat with their spells.

Which I find to be very BORING. Most of the fun I've had in this game as a martial character has involved either no casters or ones that don't pull tricks like that.

I don't enjoy "janitor work". However "invaluable" my coup de grace on the sleeping giant was, it doesn't change the fact that I had little to do with winning that encounter. It was won when the caster pulled a Sleep spell out of his ass.

That's why people use the phrase. Not as a jab at martial characters so much as a statement of disgust at the way casters can sometimes trivialize encounters.

If the caster makes the fight easy for the martial, he should say "Thank you" not "Dammit, I wanted him to hit me a few times first." I'll say it again. It's a TEAM game. You're not fighting for individual glory. It's not about how many enemies you specifically "took down".


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slade867 wrote:
Martial work, that is dealing HP damage to things so that they actually die, is called “janitor work” or “clean up”. This is meant to imply that it’s somehow lesser to the caster who cast a spell to make that job easier. Where did this idea come from?

Cleaning up is honest work, not a lesser contribution.

When you start feeling that this is "lesser" just fire the people that do this job for your company. Very soon you will learn that they are critical to any endeavour.

<tips his "Insensitivity Police" cap and wanders off into the sunset banging coconuts together>


But it is a GAME, where a lot of the fun comes from the challenge.

No challenge, no fun.

Easy fight = No challenge = No fun.

Sovereign Court

Rynjin wrote:

How is that at all the same thing?

But yeah, a fight ended in one round via crit is pretty boring too.

Thankfully, crits are fairly rare, and them completely ending encounters is even rarer.

Well the enemy has to fail a save for a SOS/SOD to end the encounter. Its not that difficult for an optimized martial to get the leg up on an enemy and take them out in one round. Sure crits may be rare but they still happen.

What I am wondering is exactly what people are expecting from combat. Are one round enders bad no matter how they happen? Should all combats allow everyone to act? Does everyone need to participate equally in damage or whatever metrics? What exactly is expected from the game system? Answers to these questions point out what type of play style you desire. Some systems provide combat as sport really well, others not so much.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
slade867 wrote:

There are plenty of other caster vs martial topics on this board and I'm not interested in this being one. Reading those though, I did notice something that I thought needed a new discussion.

Martial work, that is dealing HP damage to things so that they actually die, is called “janitor work” or “clean up”. This is meant to imply that it’s somehow lesser to the caster who cast a spell to make that job easier. Where did this idea come from?

It comes form idiot posters on messageboards like this one. In a party that's not filled with idiots, the casters dearly appreciate the martials who in most cases will be doing the major work of putting enemies down. And the martials will appreciate the casters who make their job easier.

This is a COOPERATIVE GAME. Which means the most effective classes ARE those who play nice with others.

Shadow Lodge

Jinx Wigglesnort wrote:
slade867 wrote:
Martial work, that is dealing HP damage to things so that they actually die, is called “janitor work” or “clean up”. This is meant to imply that it’s somehow lesser to the caster who cast a spell to make that job easier. Where did this idea come from?

Cleaning up is honest work, not a lesser contribution.

When you start feeling that this is "lesser" just fire the people that do this job for your company. Very soon you will learn that they are critical to any endeavour.

Right on, I don't like walking around knee deep in my own $#!@, so I really appreciate it when they're around.

Challenge is nice, but I've always found party interaction to be the most fun part of the game.


Hard fights favorite the Fighter.


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I pay my respects to the martials.

Especially when I roll up a squishy level 1 bard or something of the like

Shadow Lodge

Respect needs to be earned.


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I know I get mad as a caster when I blind all the monsters and the party takes too long to kill them negating the HP saved from the miss chance. My groups needs more legit martials.

I guess I'm volunteering.


LazarX wrote:

It comes form idiot posters on messageboards like this one. In a party that's not filled with idiots, the casters dearly appreciate the martials who in most cases will be doing the major work of putting enemies down. And the martials will appreciate the casters who make their job easier.

This is a COOPERATIVE GAME. Which means the most effective classes ARE those who play nice with others.

I appreciate the guys that serve the fast food, that clean the toilets, that work the fields, that do all the crappy unskilled jobs that drive the world. I need them, for sure. They are an important part of the way the world works.

But me appreciating them doesn't make what they do special. It is necessary to clean the toilets. It is not special to do so. It is not particularly tricky. It does not take a talent. It does not require education. It's just something that has to be done, and anyone can do it.

That's exactly what dealing damage is in D&D. It's important--critical even--to group success. But it's not special.

Just as the doctor can clean toilets, but the person actually paid to clean them can't perform surgery, the casters can deal damage, but the martials (who unquestionably deal damage best) can't do what the casters do.

Edit: And as another poster above put it--I don't say this because I hate martials or have contempt for them. In truth, I prefer them thematically, and wish I could enjoy them mechanically. I want them to be better. I want them to be necessary and important and do something nobody else can do. But the confines of 3rd edition D&D just do not allow that.

At least give me the Pathfinder Tome of Battle so I can clean the toilet with a really cool looking scrub brush that might impress and dazzle onlookers until they really study it and realize it's still just a scrub brush.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Something I have to throw out there, There is less permission for GM's to have Random encounters these days, Then in the past games I've played 20 years back.
Random Encounters can disrupt sleep and meditation time to get spells back.


I don't know what more you want out of a martial. They hit hard and are tanky. What more do you want?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Pan wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

How is that at all the same thing?

But yeah, a fight ended in one round via crit is pretty boring too.

Thankfully, crits are fairly rare, and them completely ending encounters is even rarer.

Well the enemy has to fail a save for a SOS/SOD to end the encounter. Its not that difficult for an optimized martial to get the leg up on an enemy and take them out in one round. Sure crits may be rare but they still happen.

What I am wondering is exactly what people are expecting from combat. Are one round enders bad no matter how they happen? Should all combats allow everyone to act? Does everyone need to participate equally in damage or whatever metrics? What exactly is expected from the game system? Answers to these questions point out what type of play style you desire. Some systems provide combat as sport really well, others not so much.

Honestly, in most cases the quicker combat's over, the better. I'm delighted when the barbarian pounces some poor sap to smithereens. I'm also sure the barbarian's delighted when I Stinking Cloud four dudes and then send in summons to mop them up.

I mean, hell, random encounters can disrupt all kinds of stuff... but random combats are BORING. Why should I care about a combat with (*rolls on random encounter table*) Dire Camels? Why are we wasting game time with this? I'm trying to foil a cult's nefarious schemes here!

Things like 4 encounters/day and random encounters are an artifact from when D&D actually did take place mostly in dungeons. If you're trying to actually craft a narrative game, incidental combats just burn through game time. The quicker they're done with the better, unless it's an encounter with real narrative meat to it (like a BBEG).


Gurby wrote:

Something I have to throw out there, There is less permission for GM's to have Random encounters these days, Then in the past games I've played 20 years back.

Random Encounters can disrupt sleep and meditation time to get spells back.

Casters are OP and all their weaknesses are DM fiat when exploited.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Gurby wrote:
Something I have to throw out there, There is less permission for GM's to have Random encounters these days...

Permission? PERMISSION? I don't need no stinkin' permission!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Marthkus wrote:
Gurby wrote:

Something I have to throw out there, There is less permission for GM's to have Random encounters these days, Then in the past games I've played 20 years back.

Random Encounters can disrupt sleep and meditation time to get spells back.
Casters are OP and all their weaknesses are DM fiat when exploited.

Oberoni fallacy much? There have literally been hundreds (thousands?) of discussions on caster/martial disparity since 3.0 debuted. I think it's safe to say that some of the people who believe the game is unbalanced have actually played in real games, and have actually had competent DMs. My DM's been running games for a long time, and if casters are giving him a headache then it's not because he sucks at it. Just sayin.

Hell, it's not like casters are uniquely vulnerable to ambushes. Or does your fighter bathe in full plate?


Yeah, as others have said, there's a massive imbalance in how the classes work. Unfortunately that means martial characters don't bring a lot of options to the table and what options they do bring do not require their classes.

A big part of this is that martials aren't allowed to have any big moves that affect lots of bad guys or weaken lots of enemies in any significant way. Spellcasters, on the other hand, are allowed this. This causes a huge disparity in how these classes can impact an entire encounter in one action.


Magic Butterfly wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Gurby wrote:

Something I have to throw out there, There is less permission for GM's to have Random encounters these days, Then in the past games I've played 20 years back.

Random Encounters can disrupt sleep and meditation time to get spells back.
Casters are OP and all their weaknesses are DM fiat when exploited.

Oberoni fallacy much? There have literally been hundreds (thousands?) of discussions on caster/martial disparity since 3.0 debuted. I think it's safe to say that some of the people who believe the game is unbalanced have actually played in real games, and have actually had competent DMs. My DM's been running games for a long time, and if casters are giving him a headache then it's not because he sucks at it. Just sayin.

Hell, it's not like casters are uniquely vulnerable to ambushes. Or does your fighter bathe in full plate?

It's not my fault that all of those discussions have been wrong.


Marthkus wrote:
I don't know what more you want out of a martial. They hit hard and are tanky. What more do you want?

Whirlwind attack being a standard action and easier to get.

Taking a move action or two and tripping/disarming/etc one enemy per square moved.

Easier ways to debuff entire groups enemies via intimidation and/or awesomeness.

Much easier time jumping and other extreme feats of athleticism.

Easier time tossing one enemy into one or more other enemies.

Much easier time defending others while still being able to attack.

Really there are tons of things that should be options for the AVERAGE martial character. The problem is that most of them require a specific build and a high level to perform...so your options end up extremely limited.

Edit: And this doesn't even touch on the fact they all need a slew of out-of-combat options.


mplindustries wrote:
LazarX wrote:

It comes form idiot posters on messageboards like this one. In a party that's not filled with idiots, the casters dearly appreciate the martials who in most cases will be doing the major work of putting enemies down. And the martials will appreciate the casters who make their job easier.

This is a COOPERATIVE GAME. Which means the most effective classes ARE those who play nice with others.

I appreciate the guys that serve the fast food, that clean the toilets, that work the fields, that do all the crappy unskilled jobs that drive the world. I need them, for sure. They are an important part of the way the world works.

But me appreciating them doesn't make what they do special. It is necessary to clean the toilets. It is not special to do so. It is not particularly tricky. It does not take a talent. It does not require education. It's just something that has to be done, and anyone can do it.

That's exactly what dealing damage is in D&D. It's important--critical even--to group success. But it's not special.

Just as the doctor can clean toilets, but the person actually paid to clean them can't perform surgery, the casters can deal damage, but the martials (who unquestionably deal damage best) can't do what the casters do.

Edit: And as another poster above put it--I don't say this because I hate martials or have contempt for them. In truth, I prefer them thematically, and wish I could enjoy them mechanically. I want them to be better. I want them to be necessary and important and do something nobody else can do. But the confines of 3rd edition D&D just do not allow that.

At least give me the Pathfinder Tome of Battle so I can clean the toilet with a really cool looking scrub brush that might impress and dazzle onlookers until they really study it and realize it's still just a scrub brush.

If I were a martial in your game I would say to your caster "Anyone can do my job, huh? Cool. Here's my tower shield and my longsword. You go do my job." and see how long they last.

HINT: They would splatter instantly.


Marthkus wrote:
I don't know what more you want out of a martial. They hit hard and are tanky. What more do you want?

Stuff. I want them to do stuff. Most importantly I'd like them to play a role outside of combat and not be overshadowed(or even replaced!) by casters. I don't think its a problem with casters, I think casters could be nerfed from all powerful because I don't need my campaign torn apart or planned around them, but I think the martials could use a tune-up.

mplindustries wrote:
Edit: And as another poster above put it--I don't say this because I hate martials or have contempt for them. In truth, I prefer them thematically, and wish I could enjoy them mechanically. I want them to be better. I want them to be necessary and important and do something nobody else can do. But the confines of 3rd edition D&D just do not allow that.

Small Rant:
Actually, despite me posting 'contempt' for martials a lot, all my first characters were martials when I started. I wanted to be a guy who kicked down doors, was a juggernaut on the field, and was able to shrug off conditions and rage and do all sorts of things. Over 10 years I just got sick of full attacking and feeling ineffective, and when I tried a caster it really gave me the feel that I was doing something in the game. ToB just helped me feel like I had more to do in the game, especially after I skimmed it for any maneuvers that had some utility or fixed any shortcomings.

I wanted to make a guy who kicked butt with fist and could go shirtless into battle, but instead got this flurry of misses that didn't do much when it did hit. I wanted this guy who could go stealth and dive into battle dual wielding weapons, but I got this guy who still doesn't hit hard and might actually do better with a greatsword. I wanted to be really good at just being a martial character with no gimmics, but apparently I have to sacrifice being useful at anything and everything outside of combat to do it. I wanted to do more than full attack, but I just wasn't given options. Sad really.

Silver Crusade

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Quote:
HINT: They would splatter instantly.

Haven't splattered yet, son.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Casters have defenses too, you know. A wizard with, say, mirror image or stoneskin on doesn't detonate instantly upon being attacked. And that's not even taking into account things like high AC sorcerer or druid builds. And even if my wizard takes a hit... hm... checking the rules... nope, not instantly dead. Apparently I get HP too.


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slade867 wrote:
If I were a martial in your game I would say to your caster "Anyone can do my job, huh? Cool. Here's my tower shield and my longsword. You go do my job." and see how long they last.

And my cleric or oracle or magus gladly takes them. Then...

Option 1:
Proceeds to do your job but better. This wasn't so hard!

Option 2:
You just handed me your weapons? Dude... Your like, defenseless. Give me all your gold!

Casters are more than just wizards. That said, MPL said that you kinda' need and appreciate the guys who do cleanup. Not that you should be doing their job.


slade867 wrote:

If I were a martial in your game I would say to your caster "Anyone can do my job, huh? Cool. Here's my tower shield and my longsword. You go do my job." and see how long they last.

HINT: They would splatter instantly.

Summons and other magic more than make up the gap.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
MrSin wrote:
slade867 wrote:
If I were a martial in your game I would say to your caster "Anyone can do my job, huh? Cool. Here's my tower shield and my longsword. You go do my job." and see how long they last.

And my cleric or oracle or magus gladly takes them. Then...

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

Casters are more than just wizards. That said, MPL said that you kinda' need and appreciate the guys who do cleanup. Not that you should be doing their job.

Option 2 is the best thing ever. Man, INT really IS a dump stat for martials....


Why do people always assume that the monsters are going to always fail the spell DC? I have made and played with fairly optimized casters and usually the biggest issue and one of the things you spend a vast majority of your resources towards (feats, traits, magic items, etc.) is getting that DC up. But even then the monsters still make the DC fairly often...


Magic Butterfly wrote:
Option 2 is the best thing ever. Man, INT really IS a dump stat for martials....

Definitely. The guy put it right into my hands! How was I to refuse such an offer.

Darn, forgot option 3...

Option 3:
Hire someone else. Apparently our fight just quit, but I'm sure we can find a new one. Summon him in, teleport, dominate, charm, I mean we've got a dozen ways to get this done.

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