16th level characters.....Help!

[bigrig107]

As said above, my characters are all 16th level, and there are six of them.
-Paladin 16.
-Wizard 16
-Sorcerer 16
-Alchemist 16
-Barbarian 16
-Fighter 6/Sorcerer 1/Arcane Archer 9
Now the problem is, they just finished killing a Lich (the first time) and his minions.
My campaign takes place in Osirion. I was planning on having him reform in Varisia, angry and bent on revenge.
Meanwhile, a breakout of aberrations in the desert would lead to my party being sent to investigate.
The only problem-the wizard wants to follow the Lich. Discern Location and Greater Teleport.
My question is how do I make the Lich powerful enough to challenge the group?

[Chemlak]

The short answer is "minions". Pick some nasty undead beasties (or golems!) who are an APL +2 encounter in their own right. Preferably have enough to outnumber the PCs. Then fake up a phylactery which they can "destroy".

[andreww]

If you dont want the party to find the Lich at this time you have to options:

GM Fiat. Perfectly acceptable solution, NPC's don't need to follow the same rules as PC's.

Find an appropriate spell to prevent it. Mind Blank works.

[bigrig107]

I was thinking a Teleport Trap.
Filled with undead and golems?
Anybody got a "boss" mindless creature suggestion?

[magnuskn]

Yep, if I'd be a lich, first thing I do is put a scroll of Mind Blank aside my phylactery. Permanent Mage's Private Sanctum spell on your hidey-place does the trick, too.

[Fnipernackle]

Introduce an npc to help find the lich when the players can't (whether they can't find them because of spells or gm foat is up to you). The npc might guide them towards the investigation and then once they find the lich again, it is revealed that the npc works for the lich and has delivered the pcs into a trap. Plus the lich now knows the parties tactics and most abilities so he can better prepare counter measures to their tactics.

Ps: don't make the npc a humanoid shrimp/squid thing.

[DeathQuaker]

Personally, I'd have the lich have plane shifted/gated to another plane rather than Varisia... someplace nice, like the Abyss or Hells.

Discern location tells the Wizard the lich is on X layer of hell. The party has to find the means to get to hell, fight all the devils and other creatures that live there, before they get to the lich. Plus since you're on the native plane of those creatures, they can't be banished and unsummoned.

The phylactery should probably be in its own demiplane accessible only from that evil plane as well.

This also gives you more time to plan the fight, and if you really want to route them through the desert in the meantime, put a portal to hell in said desert.

If you feel you must stay on the boring old prime material though, you could always set up a contingency teleport and/or other means to help the lich avoid the party. The lich was just defeated by the party, the lich knows what they are capable of, and liches tend to be smart and have contingency plans.

If x teleports into lair, then contingency teleport to somewhere else.

You can have a high level chase scene, could be fun. :)

For a "mindless boss fight" I'd go the golem idea, and use a mithral golem (CR 16) as the boss, as they get an extra attack (helps with the action economy), and use bone golems (CR 8) as speed bumps/minions, which are thematic and cool looking.

[ArmouredMonk13]

bigrig107 wrote:

I was thinking a Teleport Trap.

Filled with undead and golems?
Anybody got a "boss" mindless creature suggestion?

Have an, Mithral Golem, and maybe an adamantine golem as well in the trap. Maybe just stick with mithral golem (CR 16) if you want this to be more fair for them, its the APL, or make it an adamantine golem for more of a challenge (CR 19). Heck, the

[wylddrgn]

Cool scenario deathquaker

[andreww]

ArmouredMonk13 wrote:

bigrig107 wrote:

I was thinking a Teleport Trap.

Filled with undead and golems?
Anybody got a "boss" mindless creature suggestion?

Have an, Mithral Golem, and maybe an adamantine golem as well in the trap. Maybe just stick with mithral golem (CR 16) if you want this to be more fair for them, its the APL, or make it an adamantine golem for more of a challenge (CR 19). Heck, the

Neither of these can fly and neither has any ranged attack. As such they simply are not a challenge for a level 16 party unless you stick them in a very small box with it. Even then a deep enough Create Pit will allow you to kill them at your leisure.

A level 10 Sorcerer with Snowball would kill either in an open area in a handful of rounds. Fast Healing on the Adamantite one is probably the only thing that would save it.

[bigrig107]

andreww wrote:

ArmouredMonk13 wrote:

bigrig107 wrote:

I was thinking a Teleport Trap.

Filled with undead and golems?
Anybody got a "boss" mindless creature suggestion?

Have an, Mithral Golem, and maybe an adamantine golem as well in the trap. Maybe just stick with mithral golem (CR 16) if you want this to be more fair for them, its the APL, or make it an adamantine golem for more of a challenge (CR 19). Heck, the

Neither of these can fly and neither has any ranged attack. As such they simply are not a challenge for a level 16 party unless you stick them in a very small box with it. Even then a deep enough Create Pit will allow you to kill them at your leisure.

A level 10 Sorcerer with Snowball would kill either in an open area in a handful of rounds. Fast Healing on the Adamantite one is probably the only thing that would save it.

What do you suggest, andreww?

[Bacon666]

I once had a highlevel party going after the same lich again and again, so he build a trap especially for them.

an entire underground hideout completely covered in Desecrate & dimensional anchor made permanent. the only spot possible to teleport in was at the top of a 100 feet shaft.

-The first 30 feet falling activated a greater dispell magic Trap
-the next 30 feet falling activated an intensified Harm Trap
The last 30 feet activated a heigthened Hold monster spell Trap

At the bottom several mindless undead minions waited to kill any survivors comming down, and eat any corpses comming down. Remember falling damage unless the chars got some real skill :D

[ArmouredMonk13]

Another suggestion, throw in an Andalite, disguised as the lich. Don't know where to find exact stats but its basically a shape-shifting blue centaur that can't be flanked and has a special vorpal tail slap with a 15-20 crit range that cuts of heads on any confirmed critical. It can shapeshift in to just about anything you want for 2 hours at a time. They are disgustingly powerful. You would have to find stats online or build them yourself though, and they would probably be Lawful Good most of the time..., still it would be a disgusting fight.

[andreww]

Planar Bound Demons and Devils together with lower level spell casting acolytes.

Use scrying and teleportation. Hit the group when they least expect it. Go after the people and places they care about. Make them really hate him.

[Daniel Turner Zen Archer]

ArmouredMonk13 wrote:

Another suggestion, throw in an Andalite, disguised as the lich. Don't know where to find exact stats but its basically a shape-shifting blue centaur that can't be flanked and has a special vorpal tail slap with a 15-20 crit range that cuts of heads on any confirmed critical. It can shapeshift in to just about anything you want for 2 hours at a time. They are disgustingly powerful. You would have to find stats online or build them yourself though, and they would probably be Lawful Good most of the time..., still it would be a disgusting fight.

Damn you for mentioning the Animorphs species!! I loved that series of books when I read them.

[Kayerloth]

Need more info, what is the Lich's base creature and more importantly what class(es) do they possess. Discern Location is only stopped by 1)Lack of knowledge (which they have at least for the Lich itself), 2)Mind Blank, or 3)direct intervention by a deity.

It will take the Lich anywhere from 1 to 10 days to reform near to his phylactery. They PC's currently have no idea on what this phylactery looks like or where it is located (beyond 'near' the reforming Lich). Work to keep it that way.

Greater Teleportation - They need at least a 'reliable description' of the location to teleport there via Greater Teleport. Do they have one, seems likely not? While preventing Discern Location from working might be problematic it can tell them nothing about the appearance of the location itself. So make sure to block other means of divining the location to gain knowledge about its appearance. In short make them work for it, don't give the info away for free, dole it out in earned bits.

Wizard Discern location - "He seems to be located in a small unnamed tomb complex 'Z' high in the 'X' mountains near the village of 'Y' etc. etc.."
"I use Greater Teleport to travel there".

spell description:

Teleport, Greater

School conjuration (teleportation); Level sorcerer/wizard 7

This spell functions like teleport, except that there is no range limit and there is no chance you arrive off target. In addition, you need not have seen the destination, but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting. If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location. Interplanar travel is not possible.

You need to get a minimal description of village 'Y' or tomb 'Z' or where ever you intend to teleport.
I check my knowledges (or the groups), "Do any of them help?", leads them to some research in the capitol of Osirion where they find a lovely drawing of some statue in the commons of village 'Y'
They teleport to the statue and soon find the village is all under the sway of some powerful enchantments (no doubt the Lich's involvement right?).

All of this of course under a ticking clock of the Lich's reformation and potential hounding by minions and allies.

[bigrig107]

See, the funny thing is that my party wizard has decided to take a month off to create magic items.
Leaves the lich plenty of time to retreat to his stronghold on the first level of Hell, defended by devils, constructs, and the liches' own undead monsters.
Gives me three "groups" to choose suitable monsters from.
And don't forget Hellfire traps !!

[bigrig107]

Oh, forgot to mention- I have The Book of the Damned-Princes of Darkness, and it has all kinds of devilish stuff to throw at them.
That, combined with Bestiaries 1-3, should be quite adequate at destroying- I mean challenging-my players.
Thanks again for all the advice!
Any more on the levels of Hell will be gladly accepted.

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

If you don't object to using modules, the Moonscar is a great module for 16th level characters. The Lich could be an ally of the demons on the moon, and could have fled there.

[bigrig107]

That would be soooo ironic.
Said wizard described Greater Teleport as "I can go anywhere, anytime. I don't want to be in the Moon fighting these things? Fine. I'm gone."
xD

[bigrig107]

I don't know though, I really like the idea of "Lich is on the third-fourth level of Hell, and we have to go through the first-third to get to him" thing.

[Norgrim Malgus]

Lol, I would love to know why a Lich would want to set up shop in the Hells in the first place. I'm not knocking it so please don't take it as an attack on the idea.

What bargain needed to be struck for the Lich to get permission? If I was a powerful devil, before I would "bless" off on it, I would set up a contract stating in effect that "You're working for me pal" kind of thing.

Hope his Phylactery isn't there with him, lol, devils do love their games with twisting contracts.

[bigrig107]

Maybe he's a half-fiend, and continuing his dads' work?
In that case, how much of the half-fiend template would apply?

[bigrig107]

Or....his "dad" discovered how devils could become liches? And his dad became a demilich after centuries of inaction?
The "son" would keep the demilich in his basement, advising his evil plans?

[Norgrim Malgus]

The half-fiend idea could definitely work. Reminds me of the Return to the Tomb of Horrors setup for Acererak where his dad was a Balor I believe and the mom human.

Lol, ahhh, the good old days of death dungeons ;)

[bigrig107]

Just took a look at the half-fiend template.
That's. Crazy.
Crazy awesome! Definitely doing that.
Now, to the NPC codex for a suitable Wizard....