Gods are prohibited by their peers to take direct action in the affairs of mortals. Otherwise, Urgothoa would just kill all the clerics who provide healing and disease control.
And, if Saerenrae responded by putting her gloves on and laying down a goddess smack down, suddenly the material plane is bearing the weight of two directly manifesting gods. The world becomes highly trivial when that happens
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If my argument is that the world isn't realistic, then I just really need one example. I have more than one. Done.
Uh...you have zero. Both those I listed are historical and talked of as creating wonders long ago that have been lost to time. So...per Golarion history, they might easily have done all this stuff and it's gone now, leaving the world as presented.
No more than Constructs in 3.X were implied to not be healable save by certain effects. Actually, Constructs had MUCH stronger language regarding healing, and a similar method of costly repair. That didn't stop spells or fast healing effects from working on them.
I disagree. At least per RAI, which is all that's relevant for this discussion, IMO.
That is, in fact, a whole bunch more. Over time that's a huge difference. Remember, we are looking at how significant magic would impact an entire society. By your arguments even places like Nex shouldn't exist. Which is absurd. I'm just pointing out there are broader implications that we all gloss over.
Assuming they were to all do what you propose, sure. They don't because they have better things to do.
The system takes into account virtual demigods with earth-shattering powers striding the land pretty well, actually. They're mostly just not doing the one or two particular mass-production tricks available since those are time consuming, boring, and frankly such people have betteror more urgent things to do with their time.
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This is basically what I think of as the difference between fantasy and science fiction. Fantasy (in the past, other worlds, or fantasy in the future) does not deal with the ramifications of technology or magic. It's not about that, it's about, well, anything else. The characters, or the stories, or adventure.
Science fiction, on the other hand, is much more about "if X exists, how would that impact the world?" Or you could call that speculative fiction instead, since Neal Stephenson does it but throughout all time periods.
So, as some others said, there is no reason, there's not supposed to be a reason.
I guess it's worth mentioning that the United States and several other first world countries have the capability of solving a lot of the problems in our real world, and yet those problems continue to exist.
If you're going to attempt to apply realism to a fantasy setting in this regard, it's probably good to look into why our real world is not some sparkling utopia. Presumably, many of those same hurdles would exist for this hypothetical high-magic setting.
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Really I didn't mean to get into a big argument. I am just pointing out that the consequences of high level magic (even teleportation) is not really given much thought in world creation. So we end up with worlds that don't make a lot of sense when you consider high level casters.
There are about a million different things you can do with them...I was just pointing out a couple. There are tons of others I could have looked at instead.
Are people really disagreeing with my overall sentiment on the realism of the worlds we see as d20 players?
Yes. Golarion's really pretty internally consistent, IMO. It pretty thoroughly explains most of this sort of thing, and how it functions in-setting.
A lot of it comes down to this:
I guess it's worth mentioning that the United States and several other first world countries have the capability of solving a lot of the problems in our real world, and yet those problems continue to exist.
If you're going to attempt to apply realism to a fantasy setting in this regard, it's probably good to look into why our real world is not some sparkling utopia. Presumably, many of those same hurdles would exist for this hypothetical high-magic setting.
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I've been thinking of getting a new computer for a while now. I make more than enough money every month to buy a high end computer every month. Why not do it? Well, I still need to pay the rent, for food, the phone bill, the internet, car loan, Pathfinder subscriptions and all the rest. Okay, but surely I've got some disposable income left over? Sure I do, I take some of that and put in my retirement savings account, some goes into my home savings account (so I can buy a house of my own some day) and so on and so forth. But surely I have some money left over after that too? Sure I do, now it's a matter of prioritizing. Do I want to pay for upkeep on my car or do I want a new computer? I need my car, I don't need the computer since my old one is still good.
Same way in Pathfinderland. 11,250gp for a wand of cure disease is not an insignificant amount. Take a look at what it costs to build buildings in Ultimate Campaign. With that sum a ruler could build 6 courthouses (11,040gp), almost 2 forts (at 6,050gp apiece), almost 2 garrisons (at 5,820 apiece), 9 granaries (10,800gp), 5 hospitals (10,400gp), 6 jails (9,660gp), almost two military academies (at 6,100gp apiece), 4 orphanages (11,240gp), 4 schools (9480gp), 2 universities (8,280gp), or 7 watchtowers (10,290gp). The real world is about priority, same with Pathfinderland. If you think magic can solve everything then you are kidding yourself. It's the same kind of thinking that gets a child to ask why we don't just give all the poor people money or all the hungry people food. The real world doesn't work like that.
Even the most powerful magic isn't without consequences (see the Wishcraft article).
Drachasor, the difference between technology and magic is thus: One person wields said power. Even with Simulacrum it'd take time to make the Sim, and the staff of wishes more importantly.This makes it EASIER not harder. You just need ONE MAN to start this sort of thing off -- and heck, 20th level Wizards can become immortal with a feat; plenty of time to work on things.
But, I am amused to find so many people believe medieval stasis in a world with such powerful magic is realistic.
I'm confused.
You are acting like the industrial revolution could've happened hundreds of years earlier if only we had some sort of magical force. It took engineering, understanding and outright ingenuity to make it come about.Magic to MAKE machinery versus the knowledge of HOW to make machinery are two wholly different arenas.
I'm thoroughly confused that you seem to think that a wizard would have an engineering degree when machinery doesn't exist. Besides, why would he even WANT machinery? An intelligent and altruistic person like that would easily realize that technology would allow other people to rival him in destructive potential. So what would he do? Just wish it away? Simulacrum an army? No. A properly altruistic person would never ALLOW the industrial revolution.
Then again, an altruistic person would not live past level 10. He'd die protecting his friends from some hungry monsters by then. Plus the chances of an "altruistic power wielder"?!
As Chuck Norris the Space Ranger once said, "If Power corrupts, then Absolute Power corrupts, absolutely."
Your entire idea is hinged on a single variable that's flawed - even in a fantasy setting no one's THAT altruistic and alive.
The answer is not magic items or spellcasters, it is magic traps. A trap of cure disease that resets will cure one person at a time every six seconds, so that is about 12,000 people per day. You can do the same with create water, create food, pretty much any spell can be turned into a magical trap and become an unlimited font of power that can be endlessly used.
Yeah, the traps idea is quite ludicrously awesome.
Besides the point, though. There's little to no way for any but a city to afford it - high level casters are quite rare and there isn't supposed to be an "open-magic mart" where if you have the coin you can buy it. The game's built around a storytelling aspect that is supposed to make acquisition of reagents a deal in and of itself, at times. The only reason casters are OP is because the GM allows them to be. He doesn't even need to veto - he just needs to make players work for their loot. (and 1000gp of diamonds IS loot)
Sure, there's old age, but I mean accidental deaths...
Ah, the tramp has syphillis? Remove disease.
The king was beheaded? Raise dead/ressurect.
Crime? Buy magical trinkets that let them know whenever someone is lying.
Starvation? Child's play for a druid or cleric.
Wars? Instead of +1 weapons, give them clw or infernal healing.
Why aren't kingdoms severely overpopulated?
As has been stated already they're too expensive for the common folk. Going by this thread here, if you're willing to agree with his numbers (I base my campaigns gp worth on it since I've yet to see anyone else put hard numbers down for this kind of economic simulation in PF/D&D), the average person would never be capable of affording magical medical care on a consistent basis as presented in the following (as a basis if nothing else, since prices on certain aspects might be different and/or changed in recent PF):
From the age of adulthood (15 per 3.x PHB Table 6-4) to the maximum age range (110) a human unskilled laborer who never adventurers and just subsists earns 3467.5 GP. The average life span of a peasant in the Middle Ages would be between 30-45, with lowest lifetime earnings between 540 gp - 1080 gp.
Overall if you survive to ages below you have a Net Worth of (includes costs of meager living 24 gp/yr.):
• 30: 180gp
• 35: 240gp
• 40: 300gp
• 45: 360gp
• 50: 420gp
• 55: 480gp• Emergency Care (CLW to Stabilize injury): 10 GP ($1170)
• Mummy Rot (first time success minimum cost): 300 GP ($35,100)
• Loss of Limb (Regeneration): 910 GP ($106,470)
• Unexpected Death (Body Intact) [Raise Dead]: 5400 GP ($631,800)
• UD (BD) [Resurrection]: 10910 ($1,276,470)
• UD (BU) [True Resurrection]: 26530 ($3,104,010)
Going by the thread, the cost of magical medical care is similar to real hospital costs (in nations that don't have free care); Regenerating a limb, i.e losing one and/or have serious repairs made to one in reality, would ruin an average person (without insurance, in the US anyway, and I'm under the assumption that no such insurance system exists in the lore of the PF/D&D world) financially; many not even be capable of affording it at all.
If you agree with this post on the profits of a Noble, however, I would question why Kings die if based on cost. I would imagine a King (having a kingdom) makes quite a bit more than the single Noble does, and thus could likely afford to be raised (especially given he's the King and should have priority as far as kingdom assets are concerned). As was mentioned in this thread; Kings dying (and staying dead) probably has more to do with their heirs not wanting to bring them back than any actual cost.
I think the game gives players a skewed view of reality as far as economies or power go. Remember, 90% of the world is made up of 1-3 commoners who make...like 1 silver a day going by the charts.Again, I wish that were the case, and I think most people believe that and run it that way. However, as I showed above, shopkeepers are level 6 commoners. I would like for the world to be level 1-3, but it's not.
You have a cite for this? or is it one special shopkeeper who is a level 6 commoner?
In any case, how many of the populace are adventuring classes?
Why can't a 20th level wizaerd solve all of the worlds problems? Because there are very few 20 level wizards and one third of them are trying to destroy or conquer the world, another third don't care about it and/or are too busy studying in their demiplane mansion to waste time with peasants and the other third has to juggle the first third plus demons lords, the tarrasque, arch devils, the tarrasque, ancient evil dragons, the tarrasque, archliches, the tarrasque, eldrich aberrations, the tarrasque...
Why don't the gods do it, then? It's not like they have to deal with evil gods, eldritch horrors from beyond and other stuff... Oh, wait, they do.
The problem with your premise is that for every good aligned NPC or PC there are 10 or more enemies of equal or higher power causing trouble, or plotting to cause trouble.
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You have a cite for this? or is it one special shopkeeper who is a level 6 commoner?
I was going by the suggested characters in the NPC codex.
In any case, how many of the populace are adventuring classes?
Judging from the NPC codex, a lot.
Exactly. This thing is packed with high level characters doing bizarre things. A "dilettante" has 12 HD. WTF? "I've got nothing special to do with my life, so I can easily dispatch a squad of orcs" Huh?! Kings are level 16, but Crime Lords are 19.
The default game assumes high level normal people are everywhere. I don't care for it, and I think most people ignore it, but it's in the books.
I did my own work on this using the rules as presented in the core rulebook: here -- I'll likely get back around to working on it again sometime but in my own opinion it's solid work.
You have a cite for this? or is it one special shopkeeper who is a level 6 commoner?
Going by that, it assumes that most of the shopkeepers on Golarion are elves (which isn;t true since there's not enuf elves in the world to stock the sops) and they are all 6th level.
Just because ONE shopkeep is a 6th level elf doesn't mean this is representative.
And there are others, including a Expert 2, Commoner 2, Expert 3, etc.
Something else to consider with say my examples which provide for a well off family that still can't afford a huge amount of magical healing on a regular basis.
Lets consider a family member sick. With my numbers the family could conceivably afford a remove disease in a year... but with what we know of disease by the time it's presenting symptoms others are already exposed and possibly sick. Even if they go with the cheaper alchemist and anti-plague option it's still expensive to treat everyone in the family.
And even then using my totals at the end of the year leaves out the point that it takes a year's time to build that up. So during the year you aren't going to have all that available at once.
In summary the problem isn't affording it for a single person -- it's when the whole family is getting sick and spreading stuff or bad things happen in tandem. Kind of like our modern society everything is fine until something happens and then things start running down hill.
Which is why we get insurance, to supposedly help cover those times when crap happens.
I think you are overlooking something rather major....Evil.
For every cleric with a wand of cure disease...there are three cultists of Urgathor with wand of Cause disease.
For every 20th alturusic caster with staffs of wishs(which I don't see any sane GM allowing in the game..using the rules to disallow them) and army of simulacrum doing public works...there is three 20th evil caster who are against them and have a army of simulacrum terrorists.
For every thing you come up with...there is Evil.
You also largely ignore something else who also have great magical resouces to stop this population explosion...or do you really think the neutral druids would allow civilzation run pampant and destroy nature...and disrupt the balance?
Evil has a problem in that it has trouble working together, which means it has evil enemies, neutral enemies, and good enemies. Good people tend to get along a lot better. I mean, you could make the same argument about our world, but evil didn't really stop progress.
Two points...
1) You may think evil can't work together...or good always does....but the vast majority of people are not good or evil. What a good man creates...others will abuse. We see that all the time.
2) You are making a rather large assumption that progress is always good. While I am not a doomsayer...we for the first time in our history have means to drive ourself into extinction. We have had disease beaten...but due short sightedness we have made them immune to our cures. Progress has always been a double edge sword. Niether good or evil.
I imagine they'd help build the new Demiplane of Maximized Utils for that very reason.
We seem to have this rather large false sense of the security of Demiplanes....
...
But all that said, it isn't like the game takes into account the massive and insane devastation an evil caster to wreck other (one reason to move to a demiplane). Teleport in, Meteor Swarm, Teleport Out. And that's a trivial bit of evil. Destabilizing cities and so forth is relatively easy. Without tons of magic, Shadows can kill everyone. Etc, etc, etc. Society, defenses, etc, should look nothing like a medieval Europe. Like Berti said above, the settings basically never stop to think about what the implications of all this magic are.
I'd point out that in the Lord of the Rings and a lot of other fantasy works, magic is much rarer and weaker compared to D&D. That makes how the societies look more sensible.
While I do find this to be true to a certain extent...it is rather easy to fix.
Also you pointed out there have been in the history of golarion who could have done this....who said they did not? Who said it just did not fail once they died? I mean your whole basis rest on some rather large assumptions....and conjecture...and also a failure to see how things work in the real world.
I mean...ok the population booms...how do you feed them all?
What do you to with a rather large idle class of people?
Maybe these int 30+ wizards and cleric of the past saw what problems these advancement you say happen would lead too? Best movie about what you are talking about where humans recieve everything they need with no need to work or strive for was Wall-E. There is a reason why Utopia is called that.
Well, according to JJ, "The vast majority are levels 1-5" , so level 6 shopkeepers are an anomaly.
He suggests the Inner Sea World Guide for a guide on NPC levels.
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Evil has a problem in that it has trouble working together, which means it has evil enemies, neutral enemies, and good enemies. Good people tend to get along a lot better. I mean, you could make the same argument about our world, but evil didn't really stop progress.I think you are overlooking something rather major....Evil
For every cleric with a wand of cure disease...there are three cultists of Urgathor with wand of Cause disease.For every 20th alturusic caster with staffs of wishs(which I don't see any sane GM allowing in the game..using the rules to disallow them) and army of simulacrum doing public works...there is three 20th evil caster who are against them and have a army of simulacrum terrorists.
For every thing you come up with...there is Evil.
Hmm, and yet it took only 19 evil men to take the lives of 2977 people, and about two hours to destroy what took 10 years and millions of dollars to create. And while they did not stop progress, they certainly managed to delay it for a goodly amount of time.
Not to mention evil gods (six, and that considers only the core deities) and their armies of followers that would be working to actively oppose your self-giving spellcaster. And for that matter, would the other gods, even the good ones, desire this mortal (or newly arrived immortal) upstart disrupting the way of things? I think not.
There is also the counter force of evil clerics and other such. One church might fight an epidemic, while another church is busy destroying the crops.
Or out causing the epidemic.
Somehow I doubt there are more evil than good people. I suspect it's about the same. So you could have a "secret" war between the clerics of Shallya (some healing goddess, don't know Golarion too well) and the cultists of Nurgle (a demon lord of disease). If Nurgle's forces were significantly more powerful than Shallya's, you would end up with a world where far more people got sick than in real life.
Actually I would imagine something like 50% neutral, 30% evil, 20% good. Why? Because it's easier to be evil than it is to be good. Evil is selfish, and like it or not evil has a lot of pros for self-preservation. Evil takes what it can get. Evil is easy, and evil is enticing. Good is harder to do and harder to maintain.
Likely the vast majority of people in the world are Neutral with good tendencies, or at least more likely to support good people in their ideals (because most people don't like evil, even if they aren't actively striving for good).
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You bet there are more evil. How many will kill to help themselves, how many will die to help another? How many will steal to have what they want, how many will starve to feed the others? lots more evil. Most people are N pushing a good agenda because they want to be treated well themselves, but balk at being expected to give up anything themselves.
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On a side note I'm a big proponent of magic changing and influencing the world. I'm also well within the "commoner's aren't dirt poor" camp because the rules just don't support it. I'm also aware that the rules don't support a lot of the things that some people propose (including the near infinite wealth that would be required for things like giving every Tom, Dick, and Harry a magic item warding against disease or poisons). Yet in fairness there are ways to pretty much negate many problems due to magic.
Magic traps are probably the most influential things that can be produced. Resetting magical traps are common, and the only thing that makes a trap a trap is that it has a trigger condition and an effect (a magic trap could do anything from activate an alarm to summon a monster to fix you dinner), and because of this these are the means by which the most wild innovations in a world are likely to emerge.
Small magic traps (such as a CL 1-5 burning hands) can lead to the production of infinite energy. Fire is the most likely candidate. A machine that combines create water and burning hands for example could produce steam power relatively cheaply while being both infinite and clean burning (the water from create water vanishes after a period of time which means you won't even cause environmental stress with such an engine).
Meanwhile, other types of resetting traps can solve certain problems in the world that have plagued humanity for ages. Things like hunger. See, a resetting trap of create food and water would cost 7,500 gp and could produce enough food and water to sustain 15 people every 10 minutes. That means that in a single day of operation it could be used to feed 2,160 people per day. When you consider that it sustains 2,160 people per day, all day, every day, for an entire year that's looking pretty good. It's essentially insurance that you cannot bring a city outfitted with such things down through attrition tactics (in reality it was impossible to hole up in a city forever due to your populace eventually running out of food, whereas now it isn't). At a cost of 7,500 gp that's not unreasonable. And here's why.
The average untrained laborer in D&D/PF earns 5 gp per week (based on taking 10 on Craft/Profession with a +0 modifier), or 20 gp per month. The average cost of living is 10 gp/month (which includes taxes and living expenses). Assuming 5 gp of that cost goes towards taxes to the government of the land (be a lord or whatever) then that means you're probably reaping about 5 gp / month per adult citizen. 2,160 people per month - if paying taxes - would generate 10,800 gp for their regent in a month. Now of course a portion of that would have to go towards maintaining order, paying public servants, paying soldiers or guards, and building sweet statues of yourself. But given that ensuring your people won't starve is a pretty good idea, it'd be fair to assume maybe you take a portion of that gold per month and invest it into some food-machines. If you put only 20% of the amount (2,160 gp) into the purchase of such a machine then you could purchase 3.45 of those machines per year if you wanted to.
Common illnesses could be cured in much the same manner (using spells like remove disease). Some wealthy temples might even have a remove disease trap placed in their temple that they use on the sick or may even place it at the front door of their temple so that anyone who walks inside could be blessed (at the very least they could make one and then charge people to use the trap, which would pay for itself pretty quickly).
Genius.
I'm sorry in advance for the hate my GM will send your way telepathically.
Somehow I doubt there are more evil than good people. I suspect it's about the same. So you could have a "secret" war between the clerics of Shallya (some healing goddess, don't know Golarion too well) and the cultists of Nurgle (a demon lord of disease). If Nurgle's forces were significantly more powerful than Shallya's, you would end up with a world where far more people got sick than in real life.
I doubt there are more evil people than good, but for evil to succeed all it needs is for good people to do nothing. More evil people act on their evil than good people act on their good.
My personal view is that the setting/game system needs some sort of rule, particularly on raise dead (etc)
Something like "only works on people with special souls (starsouls?) " , starsouls being created when the starstone fell to earth, and their energy passing to newly born people when the old owner died.
Of course, all player characters are "starsouls" ...but other folks, less often.
It would make the "very few people ever truly die" problem go away , but still give GMs plot scope to ressurect their favourite villain, specific npc, etc.
You seem to think that the number of high level casters who would be altruistic and with so much free time on their hands exist in the millions. They don't. There might be 5 or 6 in the whole world. The entirety of the forces of evil only has to stop those 5 or 6 people....a crapsack where good people are extremely rare.
You mean the real world? And really, absolute power has a bad habit of corrupting people.
I like being optimistic, but I doubt the chances of there being so many high level casters of an altruistic bent.
Hey, I said I like being optimistic. I'm not so cynical as to completely dismiss altruism as naivety. I reject nihilism and pessimism!
Sometimes, people do surprise me with random acts of kindness that will never benefit them since they are just strangers to me, as I am to them.
Despite that, I am ready to accept that these people are an exception rather than the norm. It's just the way life usually works in this crapsack world of ours.