The Spell Righteous Might, which is one of the cooler cleric self-buff spells in 3.5, is less powerful in pathfinder.
In 3.5, it's a +8 to strength, no dex loss, +4 con, a +4 to natural armor, and the DR maxes at DR15/good or evil.
In pathfinder its a +4 to str/con, -2 dex, +2 nat, and DR maxes at DR 10/good or evil at 10th level.
Of, and in 3.5 projectile weapons benefit from the size change, while in pathfinder, they do not.
I'm curious if anyone knows why this was changed the way it was.
EDIT: Mind you, it's still pretty damn cool.
|
Pathfinder tried to bring the classes on a bit more of an even footing from 3.5, and give classes a little more breathing room in their various niches. Clerics in 3.5 were pretty much the combat tanks, in addition to having healing and lots of cool combat spells and buffs.
They're still totally capable of filling that role, but they don't marginalize the fighter and other melee classes to quite the same degree thanks to the taming down of buffs like Righteous Might.
*Sidenote- I still run clerics as tanks more than any other class, and I'm not saying that nerfing the spells made fighters a class on the same level, just that they aren't crushed at the one thing they do quite as quickly and easily as they used to be.
Because it made Clerics better fighters than Fighters. Now, it only contributes to it...
|
The Spell Righteous Might, which is one of the cooler cleric self-buff spells in 3.5, is less powerful in pathfinder.
In 3.5, it's a +8 to strength, no dex loss, +4 con, a +4 to natural armor, and the DR maxes at DR15/good or evil.
In pathfinder its a +4 to str/con, -2 dex, +2 nat, and DR maxes at DR 10/good or evil at 10th level.
Of, and in 3.5 projectile weapons benefit from the size change, while in pathfinder, they do not.
I'm curious if anyone knows why this was changed the way it was.
EDIT: Mind you, it's still pretty damn cool.
Because it turned clerics into unstoppable death machines. It's one of the little ways Paizo was trying to take the "C" out of "CoDzilla".
What's "Odzilla" then?
What's "Odzilla" then?
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/CoDzilla
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=CoDzilla
Righteous Might was not the only cleric buff that got nerfed. The large bonuses + stacking were better then any combination of feats that most fighters could get in terms of buffs. In order to keep core melee viable, they had to go.
Granted, DMM and Persistent Spell aren't amplifying the problem anymore, but CoDzilla used to be very, very real. Why be a fighter when you can be +5/+5 with all attacks, size L, Str+6, Nat AC+4, full BAB, DR/evil, AND still have major spellcasting on the side?
==Aelryinth
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Spell Righteous Might, which is one of the cooler cleric self-buff spells in 3.5, is less powerful in pathfinder.
Pathfinder took a small bite out of Clerics fighty-ness indeed. Gave lots more back.
However, you should probably check your rulebooks, righteous might wasn't nerfed in Pathfinder, it was nerfed in 3.5. In fact, the Pathfinder version is slightly stronger.
3.5: +4 Str, +2 Con, 3/6/9 DR (at 9th/12/15)
PF: +4 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex, 5/10 DR (at 9th/15)
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Now, add a cleric, with a spinosarus animal companion, at effective level, and you get a Huge Dino running around with a cleric on it's back, shooting frickin lazer beams with a 49 strength. >.> This is around level 9ish as well. Sure it takes some buff time, but yeah baby yeah.
Spino start stats 18 + 8 from advancement. +5 stat bumps. +4 bulls strength, +10 blood rage morale, +4 Size bonus to Strength from RM.
This isnt even counting divine power. Rawr Dino onward!
However, you should probably check your rulebooks, righteous might wasn't nerfed in Pathfinder, it was nerfed in 3.5. In fact, the Pathfinder version is slightly stronger.
3.5: +4 Str, +2 Con, 3/6/9 DR (at 9th/12/15)
PF: +4 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex, 5/10 DR (at 9th/15)
The original 3.5 PHB printing had +8 STR, +4 CON, +4 NA, 5/10/15 DR.
I don't remember when it was errata'd (and I can't find the 3.5 errata documents on the WotC site at the moment), but considering WotC didn't include errata in physical reprints until they released the premium books (IIRC), I wouldn't be surprised if most people who used physical books were unaware of the change.
CoDzilla is still very, very real. Pretty much just as real as it was in 3.5. A couple relatively small spell changes doesn't alter the power of CoDzilla. Heck, primary casters in general are still at the top of the heap. They got some nerfs, but also got quite a few buffs. The Druid was the most notably hurt, but even they are still complete powerhouses.Righteous Might was not the only cleric buff that got nerfed. The large bonuses + stacking were better then any combination of feats that most fighters could get in terms of buffs. In order to keep core melee viable, they had to go.
Granted, DMM and Persistent Spell aren't amplifying the problem anymore, but CoDzilla used to be very, very real. Why be a fighter when you can be +5/+5 with all attacks, size L, Str+6, Nat AC+4, full BAB, DR/evil, AND still have major spellcasting on the side?
==Aelryinth
Honestly, I haven't seen this. Clerics and druids cannot stack up the buffs as they could in 3.5, and wildshape took a terrific hit with the nerf-bat. If you were a wimpy druid in 3.5, you could become a normal bear. Now you become a wimpy bear as well in Pathfinder. It's the world of difference.
In addition, fighters got buffed up some, as did all the martial classes (though some more than others).
Sure, spellcasters do still rule, simply because there is nothing you can't do with magic, but not as much as they used to.
The Spell Righteous Might, which is one of the cooler cleric self-buff spells in 3.5, is less powerful in pathfinder.Pathfinder took a small bite out of Clerics fighty-ness indeed. Gave lots more back.
However, you should probably check your rulebooks, righteous might wasn't nerfed in Pathfinder, it was nerfed in 3.5. In fact, the Pathfinder version is slightly stronger.
3.5: +4 Str, +2 Con, 3/6/9 DR (at 9th/12/15)
PF: +4 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex, 5/10 DR (at 9th/15)
No, pathfinder took more than a small bite out of battle clerics.
1. Completely changed persistant spell metamagic(It was an easy way to make your buffs last all day in 3.5)
2. No Divine metamagic(no sacrificing useless turn undead attempts for metamagic)
3. No nightsticks(Cheap consumable that gave you turn undead attempts which combined with 1 and 2)
4. Divine Power change to not stack with Divine Favor or Haste.
5. Greater magic weapon and Magic Armor changed to +1 per 4 levels(It was +1/3 levels)
In PF, a cleric can beat a fighter, but they have to spend 3 rounds casting buffs, the benefits only last for rounds/level, and only for 2 fights per day. In 3.5, I could cast all of my buffs at the beginning of the day with a pearl of power and beat the fighter all day long.
Yeah, that would do it. Good thing I'm DMing then, I guess.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
CoDzilla is still very, very real. Pretty much just as real as it was in 3.5. A couple relatively small spell changes doesn't alter the power of CoDzilla. Heck, primary casters in general are still at the top of the heap. They got some nerfs, but also got quite a few buffs. The Druid was the most notably hurt, but even they are still complete powerhouses.From what I understand the people that pointed this stuff out during the playtest and did the numbers got banned from the forums.
That's incorrect. The people that pointed out this stuff and were complete a*!%&!$s about it were banned. There's a large difference between feedback and criticism, and being an insulting prick about it and if you look at any of the playtests, you'll find the worst posters surface to give Paizo a piece of their mind.
It's kind of funny to think that Paizo's perceived "OP problem" with Clerics is that they can emulate being Fighters...
Being effective in combat is just one of a gajillion tricks full-caster have up their sleeves. Summoning/action economy? Miracle? We better get rid of Heavy Armor Proficiency. Whew, close call. Good job team.
The issue wasnt the spells in the first place.
As pointed out it was Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic. Taking away those killed the CODzilla. Spending 3 rounds to buff isn't really viable for most combat.
In 3.5 they buffed at the beginning of the day and that was that.
Yeah looking at the spell list, it seems they did not touch anything above level 6, so the broken nonsense is still untouchable.
They buffed wizards though for some reason, The true name feat alone is just horrible. It just breaks all the binding rules, which is a bad idea haha
They might have slightly buffed the BASE wizard class... but it also got rid of all the insane Prestige classes from 3.5.
Incantrix - Metamagic GOD
Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil - Prismatic Wall/spray becomes your own personal shield/shtick
Arch Mage - Crazy Spell likes(Wish 3X a day for instance), extra DC, Reach on all your touch spells, ect
Walker in the Waste - Free Lich form
I could go on... Casters are still powerful as all get out, but at least in PF they hide it somewhat... in 3.5 it was getting over the top.
I was always under the impression that straight wizard levels beat out any PrC? I never paid much attention to Incantrix, so I'm not sure what it does.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, not in 3.5; there were a lot of wizard prestige classes with full casting and very few prereqs; and wizards really didn't get much besides casting for leveling... so that was the way to go.
PFS also made fighter-types more than just "featbots"; in 3.5, feats entirely defined how you fought, so a battle cleric didn't feel "lacking" in the combat department, and actually took over its fighter counterpart. Not so in PFS, where things like Weapon Training and early feat access for rangers and more Fighter and Monk-specific feats suddenly make Clerics (and even Magus / Inquisitors / Battle Bards) pale on the frontline in comparison to their devoted archtypes. Which is a good thing in my mind btw; in 3.5 a party of clerics and druids with 1 wizard was > anything with melees involved.
Well, not in 3.5; there were a lot of wizard prestige classes with full casting and very few prereqs; and wizards really didn't get much besides casting for leveling... so that was the way to go.
PFS also made fighter-types more than just "featbots"; in 3.5, feats entirely defined how you fought, so a battle cleric didn't feel "lacking" in the combat department, and actually took over its fighter counterpart. Not so in PFS, where things like Weapon Training and early feat access for rangers and more Fighter and Monk-specific feats suddenly make Clerics (and even Magus / Inquisitors / Battle Bards) pale on the frontline in comparison to their devoted archtypes. Which is a good thing in my mind btw; in 3.5 a party of clerics and druids with 1 wizard was > anything with melees involved.
You're right, I do recall a couple PrC's that gave full caster progression. Abjurant Champion was one I was fond of. There was really no reason to not take that PrC if you could meet the prereq's fast enough; it was all upside, full caster levels, and very little entry investment.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Clerics didn't get hurt much. They were still combat monsters with just Core before even with the errata. Pathfinder basically did nothing to change this. Worst case the spend a Feat on Heavy Armor -- but hey, MORE FEATS, so they actually get a net gain there.
Nerfing the spells and getting rid of divine metamagic was a far heavier score against clerics.
Druids did get a noticeable nerf. Now they can't completely dump physical stats. Boohoo. They were still total monsters without Wildshape before, and it being a bit less effective doesn't change that -- it's still a REALLY good ability.
It is, I don't disagree, it's just a lot harder to make a druid who is a combat monster than it was before. If you do, he's a much less powerful spell caster. It's an improvement, and that's what was wanted.
Martial classes didn't really get buffed much at all. For instance, Combat Maneuver feats got doubled for the same benefit as before.
And the mechanic was completely changed, which actually makes a BIG difference alone. The problem with maneuvers is not that you can't be good at them, it's that it's hard to make them work against very large and/or non-humanoid creatures that you tend to encounter more of over 10th level.
Power Attack is worse for the uses it had before -- there's only a small window of uses where it is better now.
Is this nugget still doing the rounds? Sorry, I crunched the numbers on this way, way back, and PA is WAY better in the Pathfinder version unless the target AC is ridiculously low. Consider, PA gives you -1 to hit and +1 to damage in 3.5, and -1 to hit and +2 to damage in Pathfinder, but restricts the amount you can exchange. Given lower to hit = lower DPR, there was a limit to how far you were going to go anyway exchanging accuracy for damage. Hence the Pathfinder change in 95% of circumstances you would expect to be in works out way better for you. I'd call that an improvement.
Monsters in a number of places got buffed.
Doesn't that make the classes less powerful by comparison?
Fighters didn't get any better at things that were awful at before -- their main problem was their lack of flexibility and the feat split made this WORSE, not better.
Actually in 3.5 their main problem was that just about every melee class was better at fighting than the fighter, AND they lacked flexibility. In Pathfinder they are actually very good at fighting - I agree, they could have added more flexibility though. The main disappointment was actually the monk, who lost as much as he gained and was none to good to start with.
Rogues got their teeth kicked in.
Sneak attack effects many more things, and they got more special abilities, that's a plus. The only problem rogues have in Pathfinder (and it is a big problem) is that thanks to the skill consolidation that enabled rogues to be better also enabled other classes - bards and rangers - to encroach on the rogue's role. Rogues can still do their job, it's just that now other classes can do it and do other stuff too.
Paladins managed to finally become tier 4. No martial classes moved outside up to tier 3.
Paladins are awesome in Pathfinder, easily tier 3 or even 2. Smite evil is pretty much a declaration of "I win". On top of that they are almost as good a healer as the cleric, and have spells too.
Sure, some of the crazy 3.5 Tricks with Divine Metamagic are gone, but that just made the crazy buffing a bit easier. There are still plenty of ways to super-buff quickly. Oh and Summon Monster got a buff, which helps Clerics and Wizards.
How does no longer being able to cast one buff and have it last all day make a cleric better? Summoning isn't what we are talking about, it's clerics doing the combat-class's job better than that class. Yes there are ways to buff quickly, but they cost.
Pathfinder changes overall were a wash in terms of how powerful the classes are. Druids did get less powerful, but they are still top-ranked in terms of their tier. Wizards got a flat buff (as did Sorcerers). Clerics got some buffs and some nerfs but overall little change.
Wizards and Sorcerers got many of their most broken spells nerfed. The polymorph spells all got broken down like wildshape. Yes, they got a little better at low level - and less good at high level.
Given the restrictions of backward compatibility I think Paizo did a pretty good job of adjusting the power balance between the classes. At the end of the day, while power isn't balanced, roles are. Doing damage matters, and the martial classes are now the best at it. The imbalance now is in the scope of what magic can do that non-magic cannot, not that magic can do everything better than anyone.
Sure, some of the crazy 3.5 Tricks with Divine Metamagic are gone, but that just made the crazy buffing a bit easier. There are still plenty of ways to super-buff quickly. Oh and Summon Monster got a buff, which helps Clerics and Wizards.How does no longer being able to cast one buff and have it last all day make a cleric better? Summoning isn't what we are talking about, it's clerics doing the combat-class's job better than that class. Yes there are ways to buff quickly, but they cost.
It was far worse than that.
Divine Metamagic + Persistant Metamagic + Pearl of Power = Cast all your buffs spells at the beginning of the day at +4 caster level. Those spells are going more effective than just casting them before combat and very difficult to dispel due to the +4 caster level.
The only gear a 3.5 cleric needed was a Mundane weapon, armor, shield, Circlet of Wisdom, pearl of power, and an amulet of natural armor. Typically, you would use your left over wealth to enhance your weapon and armor with other benefits since you could use spells to add to the enhancements bonus of the weapon. Their spells lasting all day allowed them to completely break wealth by level and be a complete combat monster.
For a level 10 cleric(casting as a level 14 cleric), the buff list could potentially be: Divine Favor, Divine Power, Shield of Faith, Righteous Might, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance, Resistance spell from Spell Compendium(duplicates Cloak of Resistance). If you pick the right domains, you can also get haste and heroism, and there were PRCs that let you get extra domains. Throw the travel domain on top of that(in PF the ability got moved to the level 1 freedom domain), and you were pretty much unstoppable.
The only real challenging was getting enough turning attempts to be able to power up divine metamagic for all of those spells. That's where the nightsticks and metamagic rods came in(persistant spell rod for level 1-3 spells was underpriced).
Dabbler, has anyone told you how great your posts are at explaining things?
Rogues got their teeth kicked in.
You know, I keep hearing this. What are these alleged rogue nerfs?
(Keep in mind I know 3.5 rogues, but haven't seen a PF rogue played or DM'd yet.)
Rogues got their teeth kicked in.You know, I keep hearing this. What are these alleged rogue nerfs?
(Keep in mind I know 3.5 rogues, but haven't seen a PF rogue played or DM'd yet.)
Rogues got a buff from 3.5 as far as I can tell, but they're still at/near the bottom of the barrel of classes, especially since several archetypes of other classes steal one or more of the main things rogues are supposed to be good at: sneak attack, trapfinding, and/or loads and loads of skill points
Rogues got a buff from 3.5 as far as I can tell, but they're still at/near the bottom of the barrel of classes, especially since several archetypes of other classes steal one or more of the main things rogues are supposed to be good at: sneak attack, trapfinding, and/or loads and loads of skill pointsRogues got their teeth kicked in.You know, I keep hearing this. What are these alleged rogue nerfs?
(Keep in mind I know 3.5 rogues, but haven't seen a PF rogue played or DM'd yet.)
Oh? Which archetypes get sneak attack?
In any case, that all sounds like "rogues, who were not at all the worst class in 3.5, didn't get buffed quite as much as some other classes did", which is a far cry from "got their teeth kicked in".
Sandman Bard, vivisectionist, a few others I think.
With the alchemist, you can actually get full sneak attack and full trap finding, all in one.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Rogues got their teeth kicked in.You know, I keep hearing this. What are these alleged rogue nerfs?
(Keep in mind I know 3.5 rogues, but haven't seen a PF rogue played or DM'd yet.)
Rogue Nerf is indirect. It's true that there are more creatures vulnerable to sneak attack, but getting into flanking position is waaaay harder now. Getting past an Adult Red Dragon threatened squares went from Tumbling DC 15, to Acrobatics DC 39. Tumbling around a Pit Fiend is DC 53.
Rogue Nerf is indirect. It's true that there are more creatures vulnerable to sneak attack, but getting into flanking position is waaaay harder now. Getting past an Adult Red Dragon threatened squares went from Tumbling DC 15, to Acrobatics DC 39. Tumbling around a Pit Fiend is DC 53.Rogues got their teeth kicked in.You know, I keep hearing this. What are these alleged rogue nerfs?
(Keep in mind I know 3.5 rogues, but haven't seen a PF rogue played or DM'd yet.)
Dex based rogue with Skill focus (Acrobatics) and the Acrobatic feat can tumble past pretty much anything. Add some special +X acrobatic boots and you should be good to go. Takes some work, but if you want to be a rogue why not....
Rogues didn't get directly nerfed, everything else just got more buffed than they did.
Additionally, they're built to be the "skill class," but the skill system in Pathfinder specifically (but to a lesser extent, 3rd edition in general) makes skills a weak thing to focus on.
Dex based rogue with Skill focus (Acrobatics) and the Acrobatic feat can tumble past pretty much anything. Add some special +X acrobatic boots and you should be good to go. Takes some work, but if you want to be a rogue why not....
So they have to pay two feat tax and a magoc item to be remotely close to do what they could do before. Hence the nerf.
ALso, at level 10, 10 ranks, class skill, focus, acrobatic and boots means you have ~35. Red dragon is DC 39, you fail 1/6 times. For a char that has invested 1/3 of his feats to do thay, it's underwhelming, and mighr preclude you to take other feats (like TWF)
Skill Mastery does allow a rogue to take 10 on a number of skills. I.e. that Rogue will never miss tumbling around the Red Dragon if he doesn't want to.
The biggest nerf to the CoDzilla machine is the lowering of power of the buffs, AND making key buffs not stack with others. Divine Favor, for instance, lost a huge amount of its power when it lost its stacking, AND it tops out at +3, now. Greater Magic Vestment and Weapon are now closer in power to what normal people can afford with gold, and so their bang for the buck is maximized about level 8, and then starts dropping off again as everyone starts getting better armor.
Many of the biggest abuses of the system were made via polymorph and shapechange, and even WoTC realized this and tried to fix it.
Power Attack IS better in PF...if you don't have feats that buy off the attack penalty, OR if you have an insane ability to hit. People that play initiative rocket tag decry PF Power Attack for that reason. If your bonus to hit is high enough, or you don't have a penalty, then the original PA is much, much better then PF. If you don't have access to those feats, PF is much, much nicer.
A PF rogue will blow a 3.5 rogue away, no questions. But their niche as the skill class has come under even heavier fire then 3.5.
Note that arcane casters lost all access to all-day buffs, and had other spells eliminated or their effects moderated. Having access to simulacarum and wish ignores the first 11 levels of the game, which tend to be 90% of the games out there.
But, still, Fighters don't get to keep good things is still holding up, even here!
==Aelryinth
Skill Mastery does allow a rogue to take 10 on a number of skills. I.e. that Rogue that expends 2 feats and a talent and max out the acrobatic skill will never miss tumbling around the Red Dragon if he doesn't want to.
Fixed for you.
Still, a nerf from 3.5, where you could get enough tumble to roll the DC15 always, for much less effort. Heck, just the skillmastery talent and no rank at all in tumble would work.
The ability also existed in 3.5. having to depend on a roll to get around something was always setting yourself up for a problem.
And Skill Mastery lets you take 10 on a number of skills, not just one. The rogue has the ability to overcome the problem presented, just like the barb has the ability to get a great Nat AC bonus and DR...using class abilities. Don't knock it because it's a rogue talent instead of a rage power. If it's important enough that he wants to do it flawlessly, he'll take it.
And seriously, with the original DC's so low, anybody could make that tumble check. The rogue's shtick is being able to max out tons of skills, and Acrobatics should be no exception.
The big nerf is that +competence items in PF are few and far between, and not easy to convince your DM you can build. A +10 Competence bonus to your Acrobatics roll for 10k was a steal.
And an hour a level buffs are good...but aren't the same as Persistent, because Persistent you could do to spells that were only supposed to last ROUNDS (or less). The hour/level stuff was ON TOP of those buffs, and a further way to leverage time and effort for the casters.
==Aelryinth
The ability also existed in 3.5. having to depend on a roll to get around something was always setting yourself up for a problem.
And Skill Mastery lets you take 10 on a number of skills, not just one. The rogue has the ability to overcome the problem presented, just like the barb has the ability to get a great Nat AC bonus and DR...using class abilities. Don't knock it because it's a rogue talent instead of a rage power. If it's important enough that he wants to do it flawlessly, he'll take it.
And seriously, with the original DC's so low, anybody could make that tumble check. The rogue's shtick is being able to max out tons of skills, and Acrobatics should be no exception==Aelryinth
I don't dismiss skill mastery, it's a great talent. But in PF the rogue needs to max out the skill,take two feats and a talent to fo what in 3.5 he could do with the talent alone. (Or jyst maxing the skill or just taking the feats). That's a nerf. In 3.5, a character with so many resouces devoted to tumble could tumble HROUGH the dragon (and not just around him) in a slippery surface in a moving desk of a ship.
In pathfinder that's like DC 68. Simply impossible for the rgue. He is limited to move around the dragon in stable floor. And that's possible if he spends 1/3 of his feats, a magic magic item and a talent
So.... If I'm reading this right, there are some complaints that a high level rogue is no longer able to backflip, tumble, roll and otherwise impersonate a circus performer, not around, but THROUGH the same spot a very large-in-size Dragon, while on an unstable surface with low traction? Without said dragon being able to react at all? Oh and completely unrehearsed, let's not forget that part too *rollseyes*
I bolded the relevant part for you. That rogue is able to survive SEVERAL coup de grace attempts from a goblin who got him while sleeping. He can drink poison, climb the empire state building in full plate, and then jump from the roof, hit the floor, and keep walking.
So yes, the fact he no longer can cartwheel between the legs of a Red Dragon is bad, and the fact he was able to do it before, and can't do it now, is a nerf.