Level 7 Character 34 AC 5 Attacks


Rules Questions


I'm playing a campaign with some friends that started as 3.5 and switched to pathfinder. Our DM has allowed 3.5 books to be used and converted over.

One of the other players is playing a highly optimized and downright over powered character. I am not sure how many levels he has in each but from my understanding he has levels in the following classes:

Monk
Oracle
Sorcerer
Fist of the Forest

He is Draconic bloodline and took the wolfscarred face (but re-wrote it to be dragonscarred for his character) he plans on prestige classing into Dragon Disciple. So here is what I know: He gains 8 AC from Mage armor and shield. Unbuffed he is at 26 AC. He has a helm of the mastodon for the gore. He convereted fist of the forest over from 3.5. I believe he is taking the lore mystery to add his charisma to AC. I could not give you his exact stats or feat progression but he is getting a +9 to his initiative (I think he has improved initiative and the exile trait).

His stats are listed below:

HP 55, AC 26, Touch 25, Flat Footed 26, Fort 9, Ref 12 (Evasion), Will 7, Speed 50 ft, Full attack (+9 kick, +7/+7 claw, +6 Bite, +6 Gore) or (+9/+9 claw, +8 Bite, +8 Gore), Kick 1d8+10, Claws 1d8+10/+5 or 1d8+10/+7, Bite 1d4+2 or +7, Gore 1d6 +2 or +7. The "or" is if he only uses natural attacks and no kick.
+1d6 acid damage on kick and claws
Cmd 19, 5 acid resist

My concern is two fold. Number 1 - how did he get here? I read the Fist of the Forest prereq's and you need a BAB of +4, I know he had taken levels into this prior to level 7. Sorcerer, monk, and oracle all have an initial BAB of +0. Even if he took 2 in a particular level he still should have a BAB of only +2 at the most. Secondly - this seems very largely unbalanced. He is almost impossible to hit, and has 5 attacks. He has large bonuses to Str and Charisma, his Con is at 10, his dex is 11 maybe and int is 9 I want to say.

I have only been playing table top games for about a year now and am by no means an expert. Does anyone have any insight into rules on how this is possible? I know he has some equipment (probably ring of protection and amulet of natural armor). It is really killing the fun out of most of the campaign for everyone. We trounce monsters that attack him, he can't be kited with a 50 move speed and he is also casting enlarge person on himself from time to time. I know or GM is having trouble throwing a challenge at us. Thanks for any help.


This character needs a GM audit. It is not mathematically possible to have all of the classes he has at 7th level.


I know fist of the forest adds your con modifier to AC if you dip into it. I just can't remember the qualifications for it. The monk also allows for wisdom to AC. Depending on the oracle he has, then he can also get charisma to AC.

So he has a 16 to AC if he has a +2 in each of those stats before applying any magic items. Dex could bring it up to 18.

What is the point buy being used?<--I had to ask before I forget.

I doubt he could have qualified for Fist of the Forest with all that multiclassing.

Even with 6 level so monk he would only have a +4 BAB.

The GM needs to do an audit.


Fist of the Forest, for reference.


Are you using fractional BAB? And what is his stat array? And in any case there are conversions or strange PCs I usually suggest the GM and players converse and look things over, preferably sharing books, thoughts, and etc.

Anyways, looks like he has Con+dex+wis+4 with mage armor(temp) +4 with shield (temp). He should probably check with his GM before he dips into sword sage for his second wisdom to AC bonus(I mean.. If he plans to later on).

Somehow he has a full +16 AC from 3 stats and no armor before any magic?

Dark Archive

Alright so let's see
Assuming he has 4 levels in monk. 1 in Sorcerer and 1 in Oracle.
Monks have a 3/4 BAB per level.
So he gains exactly three there. A Sorcerer has a 1/2 BAB per level.
Oracles also possess the one half track for BAB.
So he gets exactly 4 BAB by his sixth level so he is capable of qualifying for it at 7th.

Now let me say this is honestly bullshit but it's legal. Your Gamemaster should honestly throw an encounter at him that is specifically designed to debuff his armor class. Kill him off and then tell him he has to make a completely new character or roll from the following table in the spoiler section taken from Heroes of Horror. (In addition to his negative levels.)

Ressurection Mishap Table:

d% Result
01–04 The subject has an unusually cold touch that,
while harmless, lingers in an uncomfortable
fashion long after contact has been broken.
05–08 The subject’s eyes change in color, tint, size, or
shape.
09–11 The subject smells of freshly dug earth—
comforting to druids, perhaps, but unsettling to
urban characters.
12–16 The subject’s fi ngernails and hair become brittle
and colorless.
17–20 The subject becomes reckless, feeling that death
is no longer to be feared.
21–24 The subject becomes overly cautious, fearfully
holding on to her second chance at life.
25–28 The subject becomes more generous and caring,
feeling that his second chance is best used serving
the greater good.
29–32 The subject becomes more selfi sh, withdrawn,
and possessive. This outcome works well if the
PCs divvied up the character’s belongings before
she was brought back.
33–36 The subject becomes fascinated with death and
seeks others who have returned from death to
share stories and experiences.
37–40 One of the subject’s feats has been swapped for
a different one. If the subject has a list of spells
known (like a sorcerer) then one of the spells has
changed, too.
41–44 The subject has a split personality. One of the
personalities is the one from the previous life and
the second is the personality of someone else who
died very near the subject at some point in the past.
45–48 The subject is followed by a shadow creature that
wants to kill her and those who raised her.
d% Result
49–52 The subject is now owned by some extraplanar entity
and must do its bidding as though summoned.
53–56 The subject is phobic of things that represent
death (think of Imhotep’s reaction to the cat in
The Mummy).
57–60 The subject develops a taste for raw flesh (or for
maggots, rotting flesh, or another repugnant viand).
61–64 The subject carries the look of someone who has
died, with too-pale fl esh, dull eyes, or some other
haggard feature.
65–68 The subject develops an abiding interest in religion
(or redoubles his interest, if already religious).
69–72 The subject talks about how death still wants her
and is waiting for her.
73–76 The subject spurns wealth and possessions,
feeling they have no value to one who walks
beyond death.
77–80 The subject seeks to ease the suffering of the
dead, tending to the respectful burial of even his
most hated enemies.
81–84 From time to time, the subject suddenly babbles in
unknown languages, or channels an unearthly voice.
85–88 The subject sleepwalks, even attacking people in
his sleep (although usually unarmed).
89–92 The subject has a body part or patch of skin that
remains dead/rotting/discolored and smells of
carrion.
93–96 The subject has horrible nightmares that disturb
her sleep; she requires an extra 2 to 4 hours of
rest to be fully rested.
96–100 If the campaign is using taint mechanics, the
subject is tainted by the passage from death to
life and gains 1d4 points of taint. In addition, roll
again on this table for a second result


Silence among Hounds wrote:

Assuming he has 4 levels in monk. 1 in Sorcerer and 1 in Oracle.

Monks have a 3/4 BAB per level.
So he gains exactly three there. A Sorcerer has a 1/2 BAB per level.
Oracles also possess the one half track for BAB.
So he gets exactly 4 BAB by his sixth level so he is capable of qualifying for it at 7th.

That's not how multiclassing works. One level of Oracle gives +0 BAB, and one level of Sorcerer gives +0 BAB.


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Blueluck wrote:
That's not how multiclassing works. One level of Oracle gives +0 BAB, and one level of Sorcerer gives +0 BAB.

It does if you use fractional BAB. Add up the total of the fractions. 4 monk/1 oracle/1 sorcerer would give 4 x 3/4 + 2 x 1/2. would be 4 for instance, and then the 7th level could be in fist of the forest.

Liberty's Edge

Random mechanics note: Oracle, like Monk, is a 3/4 BAB class, not a 1/2. Just FYI.


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MrSin wrote:
Blueluck wrote:
That's not how multiclassing works. One level of Oracle gives +0 BAB, and one level of Sorcerer gives +0 BAB.
It does if you use fractional BAB. Add up the total of the fractions. 4 monk/1 oracle/1 sorcerer would give 4 x 3/4 + 2 x 1/2. would be 4 for instance, and then the 7th level could be in fist of the forest.

Wow, from a sidebar in the D&D 3.5 Unearthed Arcana. That's digging deep!


Blueluck wrote:
Wow, from a sidebar in the D&D 3.5 Unearthed Arcana. That's digging deep!

Actually its really helpful to keep people how multiclass relevant, which is completely unrelated to munchkinning. I suppose you could make the claim that monks, melee alchemist, and rogues are OP, because they're the ones who benefit most from the change? Oh, and don't forget how punishing it is to go into a prestige. Time it or you lose more BAB.

Really though, it can be entirely unrelated to munchkinning. I wouldn't go and yell at someone for that. I might question how you get a total of 16 out of 3 stats at level 5. 3 20's doesn't get that! If anything he wouldn't think he'd hit hard or often as a trade off.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Random mechanics note: Oracle, like Monk, is a 3/4 BAB class, not a 1/2. Just FYI.

Do'h! I was thinking full caster and totally spaced that. Still rounds down correctly, but does make me a little off.

Liberty's Edge

MrSin wrote:
Really though, it can be entirely unrelated to munchkinning. I wouldn't go and yell at someone for that. I might question how you get a total of 16 out of 3 stats at level 5. 3 20's doesn't get that! If anything he wouldn't think he'd hit hard or often as a trade off.

Fist of the Forest adds Con as well, so that's 4 stats, and another +1 from Monk, with 4 levels of that, which makes it possible. Except he only has 10 Con and 11 Dex, apparently...that makes it a bit odd. Though I guess he might have things like a Ring of Protection to help out as well.


MrSin wrote:
Blueluck wrote:
Wow, from a sidebar in the D&D 3.5 Unearthed Arcana. That's digging deep!

Actually its really helpful to keep people how multiclass relevant, which is completely unrelated to munchkinning. I suppose you could make the claim that monks, melee alchemist, and rogues are OP, because they're the ones who benefit most from the change? Oh, and don't forget how punishing it is to go into a prestige. Time it or you lose more BAB.

Really though, it can be entirely unrelated to munchkinning. I wouldn't go and yell at someone for that. I might question how you get a total of 16 out of 3 stats at level 5. 3 20's doesn't get that! If anything he wouldn't think he'd hit hard or often as a trade off.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Random mechanics note: Oracle, like Monk, is a 3/4 BAB class, not a 1/2. Just FYI.
Do'h! I was thinking full caster and totally spaced that. Still rounds down correctly, but does make me a little off.

Doesn't look to me like he said anything against the house-rule.

I can't speak for motive of his response, but my experience is that fractional BAB is really rather uncommon as a house-rule. Sure, it is possible that this GM uses it, but in my opinion, it's more likely that this player is sneaking something through. After all, any time the numbers don't add up, we could explain that away with a rare house-rule. But it's more logical to presume the most common circumstances.


MrSin wrote:
Blueluck wrote:
Wow, from a sidebar in the D&D 3.5 Unearthed Arcana. That's digging deep!

Actually its really helpful to keep people how multiclass relevant, which is completely unrelated to munchkinning. I suppose you could make the claim that monks, melee alchemist, and rogues are OP, because they're the ones who benefit most from the change? Oh, and don't forget how punishing it is to go into a prestige. Time it or you lose more BAB.

Really though, it can be entirely unrelated to munchkinning. I wouldn't go and yell at someone for that. I might question how you get a total of 16 out of 3 stats at level 5. 3 20's doesn't get that! If anything he wouldn't think he'd hit hard or often as a trade off.

Wow! I didn't yell at anyone, or accuse anyone of "munchkinning". I just meant that fractional BAB is a really obscure rule. You'd have to dig deep into books or extensive rules knowledge to find a rule from an unsupported system in a book that's been out of print for almost a decade.


Blueluck wrote:
You'd have to dig deep into books or extensive rules knowledge to find a rule from an unsupported system in a book that's been out of print for almost a decade.

Then again, here are some groups (mine included) who got to fractional BAB and fractional Saves by just applying mathematics, rather than digging into some 'book that's been out of print for almost a decade'...

Dark Archive

boozefist wrote:

Our DM has allowed 3.5 books to be used and converted over.

I am not sure how many levels he has in each but from my understanding he has levels in the following classes:
Monk
Oracle
Sorcerer
Fist of the Forest

He is Draconic bloodline and took the wolfscarred face (but re-wrote it to be dragonscarred for his character) he plans on prestige classing into Dragon Disciple. So here is what I know: He gains 8 AC from Mage armor and shield. Unbuffed he is at 26 AC. He has a helm of the mastodon for the gore. He convereted fist of the forest over from 3.5. I believe he is taking the lore mystery to add his charisma to AC. I could not give you his exact stats or feat progression but he is getting a +9 to his initiative (I think he has improved initiative and the exile trait).

His stats are listed below:
HP 55, AC 26, Touch 25, Flat Footed 26, Fort 9, Ref 12 (Evasion), Will 7, Speed 50 ft, Full attack (+9 kick, +7/+7 claw, +6 Bite, +6 Gore) or (+9/+9 claw, +8 Bite, +8 Gore), Kick 1d8+10, Claws 1d8+10/+5 or 1d8+10/+7, Bite 1d4+2 or +7, Gore 1d6 +2 or +7. The "or" is if he only uses natural attacks and no kick.
+1d6 acid damage on kick and claws
Cmd 19, 5 acid resist

My concern is two fold. Number 1 - how did he get here? I read the Fist of the Forest prereq's and you need a BAB of +4, I know he had taken levels into this prior to level 7. Sorcerer, monk, and oracle all have an initial BAB of +0. Even if he took 2 in a particular level he still should have a BAB of only +2 at the most. Secondly - this seems very largely unbalanced. He is almost impossible to hit, and has 5 attacks. He has large bonuses to Str and Charisma, his Con is at 10, his dex is 11 maybe and int is 9 I want to say.

I've never heard of this fractional BAB thing before, sounds interesting though. If your GM is using it (ask to be sure), then he could have taken FotF as his 7th level. However, you say he had taken it prior to level 7. I'm not so sure if that's possible if Monk, Oracle and Sorcerer are his only other classes. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's not.

If he's gaining benefits from Mage Armour and Shield, and benefiting from being a Monk, he's wearing no armour. That means his 26 AC is from magic items and stat bonuses. It seems he is able to add Con due to FotF, Wis from Monk, and Cha from Oracle. The Oracle Lore Mystery, Sidestep Secret (Su), means Cha is added instead of Dex, so he doesn't benefit from it anymore. If he is Monk 4, then he gets the additional +1 AC from that. If you're right about his Con being 10, he's getting 15 from Cha, Wis, and magic items. WBL would suggest approximately 23,500gp at 7th level, so if all of it is in Cha/Wis boosting items and AC items, he could have a +2 Ring (8,000), +2 Amulet (8,000), and a +2 to both of the stats in question (8,000). That means his starting Cha and Wis needed a starting bonus of +9. Not impossible, but he'd have needed a good point buy, or lots of dump stats (which it doesn't sound like he has), and exactly those magic items.

It's hard to say for certain, with such limited information. Without knowing what magic items he has, exactly what his stats are, etc., one can't say for certain that he's cheating. He could be using more obscure traits, feats and combinations of class powers, magic items, and random rules. It seems likely that not everything he has done is in line with the rules though, and if it's ruining the other players' enjoyment of the game, bring it up with the GM.

Edit : As jlighter pointed out below, the AoNA can't be +2, or his touch AC wouldn't add up. As he also noted, he could have taken the Dodge feat for an extra +1 to make up for this deficit. Well spotted.

Shadow Lodge

One of the problems with the idea of using the fractional BAB system is this:

boozefist wrote:
I read the Fist of the Forest prereq's and you need a BAB of +4, I know he had taken levels into this prior to level 7.

Emphasis mine. Even with fractional BAB, he wouldn't have been able to enter it until level 7. If he was into Fist of the Forest before 7, there's some shenanigans going on.

Also, the math is pretty tight on the AC. At best, this is what I can see. If he has Wis/Cha 20, Dodge, Monk 4, Ring of Protection +2, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, and a Cha or Wis +2 item, then he can get a +16 AC. But it sounds like that's not really the case, or it's possible that there are shenanigans going on. He can't have more than a +1 Nat Armor amulet, though. His Touch AC is too high for it to be a more powerful item.

Either way, I'd agree that a GM Audit is required.


Blueluck wrote:
Wow! I didn't yell at anyone, or accuse anyone of "munchkinning". I just meant that fractional BAB is a really obscure rule. You'd have to dig deep into books or extensive rules knowledge to find a rule from an unsupported system in a book that's been out of print for almost a decade.

Ahh, then I completely misread that. Thought you were claiming someone was digging deep into the books for a minor advantage.

Oddly enough fractional doesn't really need support to function. Its just adding up the numbers. Its greatly needed to help multiclassing and give characters the BAB they really should have. I've been using it for a long time, so its not odd to me for people to use it nor is it "obscure", but YMMV.

Of course, you need level 6 to get +4 if you went straight through 3/4 BAB classes anyway, so I guess the point is moot if he somehow got into fist of the forest before that... To the GM!

Also, where does the kick come from? Am I missing something? Another thing to remember is natural attacks in pathfinder work differently. At the same enhance, all those attacks are primary and hit at the same BAB. Though at 3/4 bab without a lot of strength or dex, its likely to be a flurry of misses.


It's not too hard to raise AC to those levels w/ a high dex build, combat expertise and fighting defensively, along w/ Wis, etc, that doesn't seem too far off to me. Of course, usually such characters have trouble doing damage...

Now, the fractional BAB is not something I've ever used or seen anyone use or ask about, but that does seem to be what he was doing (assuming he didn't just ignore the prereqs completely). The GM should be made aware of that, as I know I wouldn't be ok w/ it if I hadn't considered what I thought about it before hand. I second the GM audit.

I imagine a properly created spell caster could give him some trouble, depending on his saving throws.


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Fractional BAB is something I saw being assumed on a lot of minmaxing forums for 3.5 but never used myself. 3.5 had enough benefits to going crazy with the multiclassing without that little perk making one level dips even more attractive.


Monk L1/L2 = 1.5
Oracle L3 = 2.25
Sorcerer L4 = 2.75
Barbarian L5/L6 = 4.75
L6 = 4
qualifies for Fist of the Forest
L7 = 5.75 or +5
~~~~
26 AC, 25 Touch Hypothetical Route:
Base (10)
Monk - 18 Wis (+4), 20 Dex (+5)
Fist of the Forest 16 Con (+3)
Monk's Robes (1 AC)
Ring of Protection 1 (2.5k)
Amulet of Natural Armor 1 (2k) (NA)
Dodge (Feat) (1 AC)
~~~~
Uncanny Dodge characters cannot be flatfooted except during grapple and such - he must have 2 levels of barbarian.
~~
50 Speed
Barbarian grants 10 movement. Fist of the Forest grants 10 movement. Base 30 = 50.
~~~~~
Evasion
The only way to get evasion is 2 levels in monk
~~~~~
Fort 9, Ref 12 (Evasion), Will 7
Barbarian 2 (2/0/0)
Monk 2 (3/3/3)
Oracle 1 (0/0/1)
Sorcerer 1 (0/0/1)
Fist of the Forest 1 (1/1/0)
Greater Fortitude (2/0/0)
(7/4/2)
12 con = 8 fort
20 dex = 9 ref
18 wis = 6 will
Lightning Reflexes 8/11/6
Cloak of Resistance 1 - 9/12/7,
~~~~
Feats:
Greater Fortitude
Power Attack
Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk)
Stunning Fist (Monk)
Lightning Reflexes
Dodge
~~~~~
Initiative (+9):
Fleet-Footed (Elf-alternate Racial) (+2) + Exile (trait) (+2) + Dex (+5)
~~~
+9 kick, +7/+7 claw, +6 Bite, +6 Gore
Kick = monk attack
Claw/Claw = draconic bloodline - sorcerer
Bite = wolfscarred oracle curse
gore = helmet
Deliquescent Gloves (8kg) - add d6 acid damage to melee touch attacks

~~~
CMD 19, 5 acid resist
CMD = str + dex + BAB + 10 + size modifiers + misc. modifiers
5 BAB + 10 base + 5 dex - 1 strength/misc. modifiers = 19
5 acid resist can be acquired through Asimar or Tiefling Race. Elves get Elemental Resistance as an alternate racial feature (which includes 5 acid resistance). Those are his only options for race. He is probably an elf.
~~~
He literally cannot have that high of a to hit, do that much damage, and have a CMD that low at the same time without seriously cheating on how much money he supposedly has to spend on magical gear OR if he is figuring out his CMD incorrectly on the low side.
~~~~
He also needs to read up on Secondary Attacks. His offhand attacks should be at -5 to hit until he gets Multiattack (which he does not currently qualify for) to reduce secondary attacks to -2.


MrSin wrote:


Oddly enough fractional doesn't really need support to function. Its just adding up the numbers. Its greatly needed to help multiclassing and give characters the BAB they really should have.

So all those versions of the rules had it wrong?


Funky Badger wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Oddly enough fractional doesn't really need support to function. Its just adding up the numbers. Its greatly needed to help multiclassing and give characters the BAB they really should have.
So all those versions of the rules had it wrong?

Erm, what versions? I didn't say anyone had it wrong. I did say it gives people the BAB they should have, but that's more about math and helping classes stay relevant(Inquisitor5/rogue2 having the same as inquisitor 7. Also avoids awkward situations like 8 character levels and 0 BAB, but tbh I don't think that's going to happen outside of theorycraft.)


His claws should only be doing d4, not d8.


Thanks for all the responses guys. We are not using Fractional BAB. I am really thinking his character is going to need a GM audit and we brought it up to him yesterday before making this post. He is actually NOT an elf. He is Human and the 5 Acid resist I believe is from sorcerer.

Dragon Resistances (Ex): At 3rd level, you gain resist 5 against your energy type and a +1 natural armor bonus. At 9th level, your energy resistance increases to 10 and natural armor bonus increases to +2. At 15th level, your natural armor bonus increases to +4

What I am wondering here is if there has been some rule fudging a bit and counting his effective character level for his bonuses.


Also I am not really questioning if he is cheating as I do not suspect it, I am just thinking there is something not right at all about his character.


He messed up his character in at least 6 spots:
1) He does not qualify for Fist of the Monk
2) He cannot have a 50 movement
3) He does not have uncanny dodge - his flatfooted is not the same as his base AC
4) His to hit for his secondary attacks are way higher than they should be
5) His to hit/damage OR His CMD OR both is way off
6) His claw attacks do d4+str damage


Mapleswitch wrote:


2) He cannot have a 50 movement

Does fast movement from barbarian not stack with fast movement from monk?

EDIT: I mean fist of the forest not barbarian

Silver Crusade

Quote:
Wow! I didn't yell at anyone, or accuse anyone of "munchkinning". I just meant that fractional BAB is a really obscure rule. You'd have to dig deep into books or extensive rules knowledge to find a rule from an unsupported system in a book that's been out of print for almost a decade.

What is so great about this is that finding obscure rules to support their character's over-poweredness is exactly what a munchkin is.

You have to have a little admiration for this guy and how he manipulated the system to get what he wanted.

I actually had to talk my group into pooling their gold to buy me a Lrg Steel Shield+3 at 7th level to get a high ac. I admire myself for that. :D

Scarab Sages

Well, let me add my vote for GM audit.... but also, what are you guys fighting that he can hit? A minimum attack bonus for a decent melee character at level 7 should be around +12 if you ask me, and +15 is very doable. At +9 on his best attacks, he should be doing well to hit 50% of the time vs CR 7 - CR 10 monsters. Personally, I like to hit more than that =).

Dark Archive

boozefist wrote:

Thanks for all the responses guys. We are not using Fractional BAB. I am really thinking his character is going to need a GM audit and we brought it up to him yesterday before making this post. He is actually NOT an elf. He is Human and the 5 Acid resist I believe is from sorcerer.

Dragon Resistances (Ex): At 3rd level, you gain resist 5 against your energy type and a +1 natural armor bonus. At 9th level, your energy resistance increases to 10 and natural armor bonus increases to +2. At 15th level, your natural armor bonus increases to +4

What I am wondering here is if there has been some rule fudging a bit and counting his effective character level for his bonuses.

Also I am not really questioning if he is cheating as I do not suspect it, I am just thinking there is something not right at all about his character.

If your game is not using Fractional BAB, and you're right about the classes he has, then he couldn't have a BAB of 4 at 7th level, let alone before it. So he definitely is wrong in taking a level of FotF.

To have the movement of 50, he needs 4 levels of Monk for its first Fast Movement, and the level of FotF, for its Fast Movement. Mapleswtich mentioned the possibility of adding in Barbarian levels instead of some of the Monk ones, which could explain the difference, but it doesn't sound like he has Barbarian levels. Either way, he doesn't have the levels for Sorcerer 3 at the same time, so can't be getting the Dragon Resistances.

Was it point buy, or rolled stats? Either way, I just can't figure out how he's getting the stats he needs for that AC. He needs high Str for damage, and if he has high Cha as well, well, his Wis can't be that high at the same time. Particularly as it sounds like he has no dump stats. Three high and no low? Either you guys rolled and he got really lucky, or he's fudging his ability scores as well. I hope you post the results down the line, cause I'm really curious about how he's figuring all those bonuses.


Sounds like total BS power gaming of the first degree to me but your ref should have checked first
I've just started a new game and i give all the characters the once over and a quick chat about where they want to go with the characters

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

I wonder if the player somehow thought he could use the "flurry" base attack bonus to qualify for "monk" style prestige classes, or possibly convinced the GM of that anyway?

Liberty's Edge

Blueluck wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Blueluck wrote:
Wow, from a sidebar in the D&D 3.5 Unearthed Arcana. That's digging deep!

Actually its really helpful to keep people how multiclass relevant, which is completely unrelated to munchkinning. I suppose you could make the claim that monks, melee alchemist, and rogues are OP, because they're the ones who benefit most from the change? Oh, and don't forget how punishing it is to go into a prestige. Time it or you lose more BAB.

Really though, it can be entirely unrelated to munchkinning. I wouldn't go and yell at someone for that. I might question how you get a total of 16 out of 3 stats at level 5. 3 20's doesn't get that! If anything he wouldn't think he'd hit hard or often as a trade off.

Wow! I didn't yell at anyone, or accuse anyone of "munchkinning". I just meant that fractional BAB is a really obscure rule. You'd have to dig deep into books or extensive rules knowledge to find a rule from an unsupported system in a book that's been out of print for almost a decade.

Anytime you comment on someone pulling from obscure rules, or interpreting rules liberally you are screaming at them an attacking everything about their being and should be beaten.

On the other hand, telling someone that they suck at making characters because they didn't do the above is just being kind.

Or so I've been told...

Liberty's Edge

Regardless of legality, the character actually kind of sucks.

Bestiary expectations for level 7 are:

12 High attack (nope) 10 low attack) nope vs 20 AC.

Dude is missing more that half the time against equal CR opponents.

Sounds like the build is crappy, even if it is legal.

(see how it works, Blueluck)

Liberty's Edge

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MrSin wrote:


Erm, what versions? I didn't say anyone had it wrong. I did say it gives people the BAB they should have, but that's more about math and helping classes stay relevant(Inquisitor5/rogue2 having the same as inquisitor 7. Also avoids awkward situations like 8 character levels and 0 BAB, but tbh I don't think that's going to happen outside of theorycraft.)

Who said they should have the BaB you propose.

The 7th level Inquisitor "should" have a +2 Reflex save, but those two levels of rogue give him a +4 reflex save.

Do you do only take percentages of that as well?

It is convenient to use variants that encourage fairness in your favor...


I don't know where anyone came up with this Fractional Rule... There is no Fractions. They simply use that so that it makes it easier to do an equation against your level and see where your BAB is... If you Multi Class and the first BAB is 0 I would love to know what 0*.5 comes out to anything other than 0. I was pretty decent at math last time I checked.


geno_correli wrote:
Mapleswitch wrote:


2) He cannot have a 50 movement

Does fast movement from barbarian not stack with fast movement from monk?

EDIT: I mean fist of the forest not barbarian

Yes, Fist of the Forest, Monk, Synthesist Summoner, and Barbarian speed bonuses stack. However, he does not qualify for Fist of the Forest and is not a high enough level Monk for the speed bonus.

Speeds that do not stack are when they are both enhancement bonuses like Expedious Retreat would not stack with Agile Alpenstock. The higher (Expedious Retreat) would take effect.


Fractions were an alternate rule in 3.0 - I don't own my D&D books anymore, so I cannot quote a page number.


Reecy wrote:
I don't know where anyone came up with this Fractional Rule... There is no Fractions. They simply use that so that it makes it easier to do an equation against your level and see where your BAB is... If you Multi Class and the first BAB is 0 I would love to know what 0*.5 comes out to anything other than 0. I was pretty decent at math last time I checked.

Well, the first BAB is 0.5 if you use fractionals. You always round down, so that's almost always 0. If you happen to have 1 level in a 3/4 bab class, you then have a total of 1.25 and a BAB of 1. Another level in a half bab class gives 1.75 and its still bab 1, another in a 3/4 gives a total 2 of and BAB 2, but he's still behind .25 from where he should be.

If you use fractional BAB you usually use it with fractional saves. Saves come in 1/2 and 1/3 if I remember right. You don't get the +2 outside of level one. Here's an Article!(from 3.x)

Regardless, his game isn't using fractional and that DM is going to have 'fun' looking it over. I'm sure it can all be worked out.


If he has 4 levels of monk, 3 of sorcerer, some of oracle, and some of fist of the forest, and is still only level 7, then perhaps he has taken it upon himself to use gestalt rules :)


DM audit. The AC especially does not make sense. I think there's a stacking issue hidden in there somewhere.

From what I recall natural attacks and monk attacks do not work well together. There was even a thri-kreen monk published on the WotC website quite a few years back making that point. (It wasn't nearly as awesome as it sounds. Thri-kreen get 5 natural attacks, but you didn't have a thri-kreen who was getting to flurry with an extra 5 attacks.)

He didn't qualify for the prestige class, as was pointed out, and probably doesn't have enough monk levels for all that speed.

Also a good example of why you should use point buy and not rolled stats. Seems like someone "rolled" a lot of 18s. (Not mathematically likely, and even if legitimate, it breaks the system, which wasn't playtested with 3 or more 18s.)


Cornellius Aggredor wrote:


You have to have a little admiration for this guy and how he manipulated the system to get what he wanted.

It would be admirable, it it wasn't outright breaking the rules.

Liberty's Edge

It would be admirable if it were a solo game and no one else had to also play with what you made.


Blueluck wrote:
I just meant that fractional BAB is a really obscure rule.

It would depend upon the group.. some people have used this as a house rule even prior to Unearthed Arcana. For such, it would be natural to keep it.

When you look at the 3rd edition system, it's obviously based upon them.. and the old 3e Monster Manual came out and said just that..

But when people complain about THAC0 from prior editions and how subtracting was 'hard', you can't expect the next edition to require fractions!

-James


Is this thing's player the GM's best mate or boy/girlfriend? How else are they getting away with this character??

The attack bonus is pretty bad though. So if the GM doesn't have the guts to call BS on the character, they should just throw something with a nice high AC at it, or a Hellwasp swarm, or, oh yeah, a Seugathi!! DC20 Will save to stop it attacking itself, or running off a nearby cliff… or whatever other fun stuff. Then tell the player all new characters are pathfinder core books only thanks very much.

Sorry, people playing twinked up characters like this give us munchkins a bad name! ;-)

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