hi everyone, I am currently running ROTRL anniversary for 7 players. After much advice, my players did not feel the need to create a cleric, paladin, or any healing class. They have smashed their way thru the story so far, drinking healing potions and knocking on the door of the cathedral to BEG for healing and ability damage help. After the 3rd time, Father Zanthus suggested they might want to find a way to help themselves. They looked confused when I told them they didn't have a npc cleric to hire(tough enough controlling 7 players, now npcs too)How would you handle this as a DM in this situation? Is it realistic to think Sandpoint has endless potions/scrolls of clw, restoration, remove poison? I mean really, they still have to go to Thistletop, then onto an undead themed second story with haunts in Skinsaw. I should be INCREASING cr for 7 players, but two or three encounters and they're limping around with ability damage and low hp. I look forward to your take on this situation....ty
Make healing wands available.
Make restoration scrolls available.
They will be expending resources they could have been getting for free from class abilities, but they won't have to play a class they don't want to play.
seems like a bandaid on a gapping wound of a party problem..lol although, two pcs took the rich parents trait, and it would be nice to see how short- sited that trait is. "i'm rich, but I have no money...i'm still rich though, right?!?!"
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seems like a bandaid on a gapping wound of a party problem..lol although, two pcs took the rich parents trait, and it would be nice to see how short- sited that trait is. "i'm rich, but I have no money...i'm still rich though, right?!?!"Make healing wands available.
Make restoration scrolls available.
They will be expending resources they could have been getting for free from class abilities, but they won't have to play a class they don't want to play.
Considering the 'party problem' do you really need to scale up the difficulty for having 7 PCs? It sounds like their choice not to include a healer could save you some work :)
Maybe allow one to pick the leadership feat to get a cleric buddy?
Suggest a change in tactics, too. With 7 players they should be more then able to sleep/web/trip/whatever or summon cannon fodder...
what classes are they? so we can give better advice for tactics that might suit their group
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seems like a bandaid on a gapping wound of a party problem..lol although, two pcs took the rich parents trait, and it would be nice to see how short- sited that trait is. "i'm rich, but I have no money...i'm still rich though, right?!?!"Make healing wands available.
Make restoration scrolls available.
They will be expending resources they could have been getting for free from class abilities, but they won't have to play a class they don't want to play.
More like a band-aid on a papercut.
The game works perfectly fine without a healing class in the party. Especially a party of seven, where PCs can tap out when they're overwhelmed and there are plenty of targets for NPCs to choose from.
Cleric is one of the best classes in the game, yes. Is it mandatory for every party? I don't think so.
Of course, a crew that has played for years with a cleric always on hand... they're going to need to remember what pain feels like.
Maybe allow one to pick the leadership feat to get a cleric buddy?
This is the absolute last thing I would advise for a party of seven.
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Sometimes I just hate players...
It might be interesting to have a line of people waiting for the local priests healing. Think about it, you think they are the only people hurt in town? The Goblins had to injure a lot of people in Sandpoint. Imagine a line of injured townsfolk, men women and children. Here come the PC's prancing up to the front of the line. Have the townspeople throw tomatoes and boo. Maybe a bard can write a song about these rude adventurers. Shame em
Or maybe the Priest starts asking for donations. Make the players pay through the nose! He's got better things to do then heal freeloading players.
Seriously out of 7 players not one of them could roll a priest? What a gaggle of selfish brats you have
They'll be fine in my opinion. After 2-3 battles, they should be hurt, down 50-75% of their resources. Since they don't have spells as resources, they just have hp. Otherwise they're at full strength!
You might mention fighting defensively as an option though. Helps conserve the one resource they have to deal with.
I am playing in that town and Sandpoint would have a lot of potions. But remind the players of the WBL guidelines and point out that they are drinking their way thru their magic weapons, armor and etc.
No Inquisitor, Bard, Witch, Oracle, Alchemist, Druid, either??? I mean, fully half the classes in PF have some sort of healing (OK, ranger is minimal but I am not counting monk)
What *IS* in their party?
I also have a few suggestions for such a large group:
one player runs Initiative, not only telling the players who is up, but who is next. When your PC is UP, you must be ready, page turned to your spell, or maneuver, etc. If your turn comes up and you are playing on your device, texting, etc you lose it.
No coaching.
One combat PC per player. That means no Summoners, no Druid or Ranger companions, and no combat familiars. Summon spells- one creature per side at a time.
Now, if you ban summoners (and trust me, in a 7 player game this is a VERY good idea), this may give that player an opportunity to bring in a healing PC.
Note that we have a party of dwarves and no cleric or main healer. But we *DO* have a Hospitaler Paladin, a Combat Oracle, a white Witch and a Inquisitor. So pretty much, even tho we have no “healbot” there is plenty of healing. Each PC can handle himself and the Pally can Channel.
A Hospitaler Paladin can tank with the best of them and still add healing. Same with Inquisitor.
OP: I agree with Deadmoon. Just make the resources available. For higher level effects, they may have to travel to Magnimar (which they will be going to anyway). If you want to inject some downtime, have the PCs wait a bit for new potions to brew and such as you see fit.
Really, the big issue is going to be money. If you don't adjust the treasure output up, with 7 players they're going to be thin on the ground before you calculate in buying wands/potions all the time. you could provide healing as treasure, however! it may feel a bit gamey, but (for instance)
:D
Maybe allow one to pick the leadership feat to get a cleric buddy?
Suggest a change in tactics, too. With 7 players they should be more then able to sleep/web/trip/whatever or summon cannon fodder...
what classes are they? so we can give better advice for tactics that might suit their group
2 rogues
1 ranger1 monk
2 fighters
1 wizard
all 7 players think every room should have a magical healing fountain appear after battle...lol "don't drink that potion, save it for later"
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No, I don’t agree with giving them extra loot. Fercrikiessake there’s SEVEN of them, if no one has picked one of the seven classes that give healing then they shouldn’t be coddled. Sure, in a 2-3 player game, I could see that. But in a SEVEN player game? No way. They are going to blow thru their loot like mad, and end up level 8 without a single magic item.
Maybe allow one to pick the leadership feat to get a cleric buddy?This is the absolute last thing I would advise for a party of seven.
It beats throwing potions at them or have them go to temple all the time.
And it won't be the DM running the healbot-NPC, too.Also if they keep going to that temple, the priest should increase his required donation... high demand and such, temples do have expenses especially if that priest has to ask the church for an acolyte because the party is exhausting the priest's spells/day. ;-)
Sometimes I just hate players...
It might be interesting to have a line of people waiting for the local priests healing. Think about it, you think they are the only people hurt in town? The Goblins had to injure a lot of people in Sandpoint. Imagine a line of injured townsfolk, men women and children. Here come the PC's prancing up to the front of the line. Have the townspeople throw tomatoes and boo. Maybe a bard can write a song about these rude adventurers. Shame em
Or maybe the Priest starts asking for donations. Make the players pay through the nose! He's got better things to do then heal freeloading players.
Seriously out of 7 players not one of them could roll a priest? What a gaggle of selfish brats you have
rofl....they're all good guys, but they just assumed their friends would roll up a cleric. when the last two guys were finishing up their character, they had such a panicked look when the saw the party balance. after the 3rd time father zanthus healed them, he asked if they saw a HEALING 24 HOURS sign on the door of the cathedral..lol
Maybe allow one to pick the leadership feat to get a cleric buddy?This is the absolute last thing I would advise for a party of seven.
agree.....seven players!!! even a paladin makes sense...druid!?!? nothing.
The heavy magic realm of Golarin is one of the things I strongly dislike about Pathfinder. Ye old magic shops, potions stores…ugh, it’s just too cheesy for me.
The availability of all this magic IMO causes a lot of these situations when you have seven players coming to the consensus that you don’t need a healer. And why would they? Every priest at every temple can heal, potions only cost a few gold. Now you have seven freeloading players dragging on society…how epic is that. Every time they are injured they run home to mom for a bandaid. It’s pathetic.
I much prefer the model that Tolkien used. Magic is rare, unique and full of wonder. Magic weapons are so rare that they have names.
It does create a lot of work for GM’s to play a game in this style. You need to plot out encounters so that items are found via spoils, gifts, or player made creations. But well worth it IMO, the alternative is a realm of Magic shops and min maxing.
I'm in an on-hiatus Runelords campaign and I don't -think- we have a dedicated healer. Maybe somebody can do a few points a day somehow. But we mainly focus on potions and wands. Yeah, it eats into our cash flow. Yeah, we suffer status effects. But between smart combat tactics and wise spending we've managed to survive up until now (Just finished the 2nd part before going on hiatus)
We have 5 players plus 2 NPCs... wow. 7, now that I think about it. So yeah, potions, scrolls and wands do work. Also, the DM does provide us with some healing treasure at times, though I don't know if it's in the set or if he added it himself. I don't read the set for campaigns I'm playing.
2 rogues
1 ranger
1 monk
2 fighters
1 wizard
How in the blazes do they avoid stepping on each other's toes... I'm trying to picture that amount of melee guys organizing in a 10' corridor, unless half of them are archers?
Have some specialize in combat maneuvers to limit the pain?
Don't the rogues/monk/fighters feel useless with so many shooting for the same thing? I mean the ranger (survival/nature/tracking/perception) and the wizard (only spellcaster... *speechless*) have a niche, but the others don't have much to shine, right?
I don't see the problem. CLW, CMW and CSW are on the ragner's spell list, so he can use the wands. Since he won't be into healing during the combat, PCs will go down from time to time. Still, the ranger can use the wands between combat encounters.
Well, at least with that mix of low tier classes, balance should not be a huge problem. Just add extra mooks to suit.
Inform the rogues and fighters that a level of cleric actually adds back quite a bit. Two good saves, 2-3 spells, two domains, channeling, etc. For the rogues, you could allow the normal optional rule of stacking BABs, since both classes are ¾ BAB. Point out Protection Domain adds an addl +1 to all saves. Darkness or Liberation or Trickery is great for a rogue, Strength or Nobility for a Fighter, Earth or Fire or Travel for either. Maybe tell them no multiclass penalty for this dip.
Obviously don't increase the difficulty since normally they should be sitting at around 4 encounters per day and this group seems to be getting less than that from the posts upthread.
A couple people said to make wands and scrolls available, but they don't have anyone who can reliably use such things (are any of them good with UMD?). So we're mostly limited to potions.
The old 3.5 Magic Item Compendium had a few useful healing items that could be used by any class to heal themselves or their allies - you might want to check that out for some ideas that could provide a few limited emergency heals per day.
As for ability damage and other effects, well, they'll just have to suffer through it. With that group, they should be able to end almost any encounter in about 2 rounds, so they shouldn't be getting hit THAT much.
Maybe it's time for one of the players to retire his rogue, or fighter, or whatever, and replace him with a cleric. Really. And if NOBODY is willing or interested in doing that then let them deal with the consequences.
2 rogues
1 ranger
1 monk
2 fighters
1 wizardHow in the blazes do they avoid stepping on each other's toes... I'm trying to picture that amount of melee guys organizing in a 10' corridor, unless half of them are archers?
Have some specialize in combat maneuvers to limit the pain?
Don't the rogues/monk/fighters feel useless with so many shooting for the same thing? I mean the ranger (survival/nature/tracking/perception) and the wizard (only spellcaster... *speechless*) have a niche, but the others don't have much to shine, right?
yeah, a lot of these rooms are so small and they are all climbing over each other to get a chance to fight. my npcs usually have no chance to escape since they have to acrobatic through a conga line of pcs...lol the wizard does fine and the ranger is deadly with precise shot, but the others are running to get a chance to make a difference. we all are having lots of fun with the exception of the 2 1/2 hour quasit battle
You don't need a healer, but I do admit it makes life easier. With that aside, they made their decision. If it was a party of 3 I would understand, but some people just have to learn the hard way. Let the dice fall where they may.
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I am currently a player in the rotrl setting, Our last game we had 4 players 3 fighters and a barbarian all level 13. All of our spellcasters did not show! our DM kindly let us purchase 4 each of 3d8+20 potions and let us hire an NPC cleric.
Granted it was 4 players but this adventure has been BRUTAL, we needed it bad
yeah, a lot of these rooms are so small and they are all climbing over each other to get a chance to fight. my npcs usually have no chance to escape since they have to acrobatic through a conga line of pcs...lol the wizard does fine and the ranger is deadly with precise shot, but the others are running to get a chance to make a difference. we all are having lots of fun with the exception of the 2 1/2 hour quasit battle
might not be a nice thing to do as a DM, but maybe get them to choose between selling that cool new magic weapon/armor to buy healing or camp in the wilderness for weeks to heal up, while regularly being attacked by local threats interrupting their rest? (I did say it's not nice, but it drives home the point)
1 wizard
Drop a scroll of Infernal Healing into a treasure list.
The wizard can start healing up the party (slowly). Funny!
If you do find party healing does become too big of a a problem and no player really wants to play a healer (don't force them), then add in a home-brew rule.
Recovery Action:
- full round action that provokes AOOs
- recovery 25% of max hitpoints (round down)
- 1+CHA times per day (minimum 1)This will help to reduce the dependence on scrolls/wands (you seemed to not like those in abundance). It will also help a player counter an unlucky crit or round (which can happen to the best). It isn't an overabundance of healing, so will still make the PCs cautious of taking damage. It will alleviate having to spend a week outside the dungeon door trying to heal up after a bad encounter.
infernal healing....love it!! twisted and wrong but healing 1pt of hp is better than zero. their must be some backlash for a desna-worshiping wizard using an evil healing spell over and over again..lol
Especially in a large party, someone is always going to be hurt. Someone capable of healing is always going to be demanded to heal. For most people that's not fun.
Wands of CLW are fine. I also think it's funny that someone suggested the townspeople would throw tomatoes at basically the front line soldiers they have defending them.
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The heavy magic realm of Golarin is one of the things I strongly dislike about Pathfinder. Ye old magic shops, potions stores…ugh, it’s just too cheesy for me.
I much prefer the model that Tolkien used. Magic is rare, unique and full of wonder. Magic weapons are so rare that they have names.
Geez, this again? Look, a potion of CLW costs a significant % of starting gold, and WBL.
Next, Tolkien was ANYTHING but “low magic”. The Fellowship had: The Single Most Powerful Artifact in the World, The Third Most Powerful Artifact in the World, Artifact Sword, Two relic named swords (but note Sting was named as a joke), a version of the Invulnerable Coat of Arnt, three Bane daggers (what were their names? ), a cloak of elvenkind for all, the Stone of Galadriel, Gandalfs staff, Aragorns ring, Boromirs horn, Legolas bowstring… etc etc. That party was loaded. Heck magic weapons were so common no one noted the powerful bane daggers that the hobbits carried until one of them brought the Witchking to his knees.
yeah, a lot of these rooms are so small and they are all climbing over each other to get a chance to fight. my npcs usually have no chance to escape since they have to acrobatic through a conga line of pcs...lol the wizard does fine and the ranger is deadly with precise shot, but the others are running to get a chance to make a difference. we all are having lots of fun with the exception of the 2 1/2 hour quasit battlemight not be a nice thing to do as a DM, but maybe get them to choose between selling that cool new magic weapon/armor to buy healing or camp in the wilderness for weeks to heal up, while regularly being attacked by local threats interrupting their rest? (I did say it's not nice, but it drives home the point)
I could do that....honestly, a pc who used to dm our group used to make dick moves like that all the time...lol I want to stress that the group is having a blast. I just know what is coming up in future weeks and I think they are going to get mangled. I just don't want them to "find" a wand of clw with 100 charges, or a "wondering" cleric in the woods who after being "rescued" becomes their heal-bot slave
Especially in a large party, someone is always going to be hurt. Someone capable of healing is always going to be demanded to heal. For most people that's not fun.
Wands of CLW are fine. I also think it's funny that someone suggested the townspeople would throw tomatoes at basically the front line soldiers they have defending them.
"my child has Bog Rot, and my husband has Leprachonaria and YOU'RE taking all the healing!!!!" boooooo (throws rotting vegetables) lol
Honestly, I just wouldn't have 7 players but I know it happens sometimes. And I honestly might just kill one of them. If they have to make a new character, 6 other people are going to berate them until they make a cleric, and then problem solved.
Just don't let them get to level 7 before this happens, or half of them will take leadership, and pick healers for cohorts.
Spellcasting costs: Caster level × spell level × 10 gp^3. Start enforcing that, then between sessions, ask them if any are interested in changing their characters around. If not let the chips fall where they may and next time have a character creation session at the beggining of the game, so they can coordinate a little better.
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I just don't want them to "find" a wand of clw with 100 charges, or a "wondering" cleric in the woods who after being "rescued" becomes their heal-bot slave
Don't lent them find a healing item that breaks the rules, but if the party pools their resources into buying a wand of CLW (That comes brand new with 50 charges) so the range can heal them up after a fight, then let them. Maybe include a wand with 5 charges with some loot to give them the idea.
Since there isn't a player who has legitimate healing at this point, let them throw money at the problem. It works. If a character dies because of it, maybe they will keep the lack of healing in mind while making their next character.
Honestly, I just wouldn't have 7 players but I know it happens sometimes. And I honestly might just kill one of them. If they have to make a new character, 6 other people are going to berate them until they make a cleric, and then problem solved.
Just don't let them get to level 7 before this happens, or half of them will take leadership, and pick healers for cohorts.
Terrible advice, and as for the leadership issue let them know you have a limit on cohorts. They can decide as a group who will take it, if you have players that would try it.
I could do that....honestly, a pc who used to dm our group used to make dick moves like that all the time...lol I want to stress that the group is having a blast. I just know what is coming up in future weeks and I think they are going to get mangled. I just don't want them to "find" a wand of clw with 100 charges, or a "wondering" cleric in the woods who after being "rescued" becomes their heal-bot slave
Well you don't have that many options:
- keep it going till they hit the wall (character dies)- hand them extra healing (wand/potions/whatever)
- npc healbot (free or leadership feat)
- adjust tactics/encounters on both sides (this one will be a headache)
- have one reroll/respec/multiclass
I don't see any other possible ways out of this.
Honestly, I just wouldn't have 7 players but I know it happens sometimes. And I honestly might just kill one of them. If they have to make a new character, 6 other people are going to berate them until they make a cleric, and then problem solved.
Just don't let them get to level 7 before this happens, or half of them will take leadership, and pick healers for cohorts.
funny you said this...on 3 occasions a pc was dropped to 1hp or zero and everyone said" I guess we know who the cleric is gonna be!!!". I've had pcs say in secret that I shouldn't worry about killing someone!! I said, "Does that apply to you too?" What if a pc is bleeding out and his friends just can't seem to get to him in time before darkness enveloped him? or asking me in game if the animal's INT would make it likely to keep attacking the pc who is at neg hps on the ground!!!
The heavy magic realm of Golarin is one of the things I strongly dislike about Pathfinder. Ye old magic shops, potions stores…ugh, it’s just too cheesy for me.
I much prefer the model that Tolkien used. Magic is rare, unique and full of wonder. Magic weapons are so rare that they have names.
Geez, this again? Look, a potion of CLW costs a significant % of starting gold, and WBL.
Next, Tolkien was ANYTHING but “low magic”. The Fellowship had: The Single Most Powerful Artifact in the World, The Third Most Powerful Artifact in the World, Artifact Sword, Two relic named swords (but note Sting was named as a joke), a version of the Invulnerable Coat of Arnt, three Bane daggers (what were their names? ), a cloak of elvenkind for all, the Stone of Galadriel, Gandalfs staff, Aragorns ring, Boromirs horn, Legolas bowstring… etc etc. That party was loaded. Heck magic weapons were so common no one noted the powerful bane daggers that the hobbits carried until one of them brought the Witchking to his knees.
I don't think I ever expressed the term "low magic".
My point is magic items are something special in Tolkien. A sword was not just a +2 longsword. It was Glamdring the foe hammer. Yes, there was a lot of magic items but NONE of them were found in the Ye'Old magic store.
And those items were rare. When it was discovered the Frodo had a Mithral vest Gimli just about craped his pants. The characters in Lord of the Rings had some awesome gear no question about that, but it was not gear you could just find anyware. Each item had significance.
And BTW the one ring was more of a MacGuffin than a magic item. It might be the one MacGuffin to rule them all.
-MD
Pathfinder is Pathfinder.
If you're willing to venture into house rule territory, I can make great suggestions for solving the no-healer problem AND the generic magic item problem.
But without house rules, the best and wisest thing is to just embrace the game for what it is.
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Seriously, let them buy a wand of Cure Light Wounds from the priests. It is only 750 gold. The party should be able to afford that easily if they pitch in and the ranger can use it without UMD.
They chose not to have healers. It is their responcibility to take care of themselves.
Pathfinder is Pathfinder.
If you're willing to venture into house rule territory, I can make great suggestions for solving the no-healer problem AND the generic magic item problem.
But without house rules, the best and wisest thing is to just embrace the game for what it is.
well said...
I think I've only made two houserules and i'd like to keep it that way. let the story play out, follow raw pathfinder, and put vegas odds on who will drop first and roll up a cleric. wouldn't it be crazy if a pc died and didn't make a cleric? lol, the group would scream like harpies!!!