Weak nothing, people just need to read more imo.Challenge on its own is very weak imo. Your order does change it, but since its chained to your order that means you have to pick an order based on what challenge you want to. YMMV.
So you have to pick the class features that benefit you instead of the ones that don't?
[sarcasm]Sure, that must mean the class sucks completely, because clearly no other class has that weakness.[/sarcasm]Domains, Specialization Schools, Oaths.
Pretty much every class has that same weakness.
Weak nothing, people just need to read more imo.Challenge on its own is very weak imo. Your order does change it, but since its chained to your order that means you have to pick an order based on what challenge you want to. YMMV.So you have to pick the class features that benefit you instead of the ones that don't?
[sarcasm]Sure, that must mean the class sucks completely, because clearly no other class has that weakness.[/sarcasm]
Domains, Specialization Schools, Oaths.
Pretty much every class has that same weakness.
Yes, I have to read through several pages of waste to find a few good things to use. Clerics have a lot of domains to choose from, doesn't mean I like most of them, or having to read through most of them, or being extremely limited by my deity making my choice of deity a choice about optimization.
None of those examples change one of the classes main features. Challenge is directly affected by your choice of order. Oath's are archetypes I thought? Regardless, its something I don't like about the class.
|
Weak nothing, people just need to read more imo.Challenge on its own is very weak imo. Your order does change it, but since its chained to your order that means you have to pick an order based on what challenge you want to. YMMV.
That's the thing, Challenge does not exist on its own. And its not meant to. Challenge and order are an intertwined mechanic. You can't judge one without the other because you'll never use one without the other.
Weak nothing, people just need to read more imo.Challenge on its own is very weak imo. Your order does change it, but since its chained to your order that means you have to pick an order based on what challenge you want to. YMMV.So you have to pick the class features that benefit you instead of the ones that don't?
[sarcasm]Sure, that must mean the class sucks completely, because clearly no other class has that weakness.[/sarcasm]
Domains, Specialization Schools, Oaths.
Pretty much every class has that same weakness.Yes, I have to read through several pages of waste to find a few good things to use. Clerics have a lot of domains to choose from, doesn't mean I like most of them, or having to read through most of them, or being extremely limited by my deity making my choice of deity a choice about optimization.
None of those examples change one of the classes main features. Challenge is directly affected by your choice of order. Oath's are archetypes I thought? Regardless, its something I don't like about the class.
Domains and School choices directly affect your class abilities and how you play the character. It is no different than an order choice. Normally you guys b*tch and moan when you don't get this many choices and half the 'fighter/rogue fix' threads are all about creating ridiculous long lists of choices for you to take that is exactly like the cavalier orders, so I have no sympathy for the same people complaining about having too many choices now with a good class that they simply don't feel like learning.
Order of the Sword is the best option for the mounted combat oriented character. Period. Gets just as many feats as a ranger taking the combat style thanks to the free feat from the order. Order of the Dragon is the best imo for cavaliers who don't want to focus on the mount, and they can fill a niche of being able to do rangery things, while still being a good party face and doing damn good damage like a paladin. Not to mention that mount can carry stuff.
The class mitigates most of the weaknesses of mounted combat as part of the classes abilities. No armor check on my ride skill? No more negatives on my attacks when I charge, and I get +2 instead? My weapon is automatically keen, essentially giving me the Improved Critical feat for free? Later, when I challenge they take a -2 to their AC from anyone that isn't me? Oh and my banner gives all my fellow chargers a scaling bonus on attack rolls?
Ally: Do you count as your own ally?
You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies."—Sean K Reynolds, 10/12/10
Oh, so my banner gives me that bonus also?
I didn't even cover the bonus feats, or teamwork feats, or the tactician ability. And all of that comes from class abilities, there are no order powers there.
The class is beyond solid, and if anyone wants to do a charging build, god help them if they want to do something other than a cavalier. They even get good skills, and 4+ per level.
That's the thing, Challenge does not exist on its own. And its not meant to. Challenge and order are an intertwined mechanic. You can't judge one without the other because you'll never use one without the other.Weak nothing, people just need to read more imo.Challenge on its own is very weak imo. Your order does change it, but since its chained to your order that means you have to pick an order based on what challenge you want to. YMMV.
and I hate them both, but for different reasons. I've said that several times. I think orders are too attached to roleplaying mandates over suggestions, that they're usually very weak, and that challenge is weak and many of the orders don't do much to gives it strengths. One of them gives a temporary DR/- that goes up to 5, another one gives the cavalier a bonus to attack but only if you the opponent attacks someone other than his challenger, another gives your mount an AC bonus. They all go up to 1+1/4 levels though. I don't think most of them are that impressive, and its a very temporary bonus. At least its a swift action and economy friendly. It also suffers from x/day limitations, which I don't think are well balanced.
Domains and School choices directly affect your class abilities and how you play the character. It is no different than an order choice.
Domains and schools directly change a class feature? Do they really? Exactly he same as challenge is attached to orders?
Domains and School choices directly affect your class abilities and how you play the character. It is no different than an order choice.Domains and schools directly change a class feature? Do they really? Exactly he same as challenge is attached to orders?
Challenge doesn't change based on your order, you get added effects when you use it.
Domains and Specializations affect your spells and choices of which ones are available to you, your main class feature. Yes is the answer to your condescending question. They also have added benefits in the form of domain and school powers, much like the added effects onto your cavalier challenges from orders.
Orders an an extra complication step beyond challenge. When you first read the cavalier class, you start reading, and you're like, "Sweet, I get to challenge people, that seems fun." "Oh, I get an order too, seems kind of like the paladin thing, but I get to choose, I don't have to be lawful-stupid, neat!"
Then you keep going, and finally get to the orders, and you go, "Wait, so I have to pick one of these, and off the bat, the first one is "selfish prick" followed by "only helps the team and not himself directly" then "king" then "common folk" then "religion" then "chivalry". And you go, but, my X concept doesn't really fit those, but I have to pick one, and if I don't follow it I lose my challenge? What??!
Picking a domain means you gain X instead of Y. Not "you must do this or behave that way or else we take away a different ability."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Picking a domain means you gain X instead of Y. Not "you must do this or behave that way or else we take away a different ability."
That is exactly what domains do. You gotta pick an alignment to go with the deity to get those domains you want. It is the same thing.
Orders an an extra complication step beyond challenge. When you first read the cavalier class, you start reading, and you're like, "Sweet, I get to challenge people, that seems fun." "Oh, I get an order too, seems kind of like the paladin thing, but I get to choose, I don't have to be lawful-stupid, neat!"
Then you keep going, and finally get to the orders, and you go, "Wait, so I have to pick one of these, and off the bat, the first one is "selfish prick" followed by "only helps the team and not himself directly" then "king" then "common folk" then "religion" then "chivalry". And you go, but, my X concept doesn't really fit those, but I have to pick one, and if I don't follow it I lose my challenge? What??!Picking a domain means you gain X instead of Y. Not "you must do this or behave that way or else we take away a different ability."
The bolded part exactly describes my dilemma. None of the current orders really fit the flavor of my concept (Dire Wolf Beast Rider based off the Wolf Nomads of Greyhawk). It would have nice to have some orders that are a bit primal in flavor. Maybe even swap out challenge for a lesser rage feature or similar. If there was a Horse Master feat that worked with the Beast Master archetype, I'd just multi-class into barbarian for a few levels, but alas, the archetype currently has lackluster support, IMO.
Domains and School choices directly affect your class abilities and how you play the character. It is no different than an order choice.Domains and schools directly change a class feature? Do they really? Exactly he same as challenge is attached to orders?Challenge doesn't change based on your order, you get added effects when you use it.
Domains and Specializations affect your spells and choices of which ones are available to you, your main class feature. Yes is the answer to your condescending question. They also have added benefits in the form of domain and school powers, much like the added effects onto your cavalier challenges from orders.
Domains and specializations don't change your choice of spells at all actually, though they sort of give bonus spells, which isn't even close to being a part of the spell casting class feature like a challenge is apart of an order. Spells on their own in this case is a pretty awesome class feature with a lot of versatility, which challenge is very much not.
The answer, was no. My choice of domain or school doesn't radically change my spell casting class feature, nor is my spell casting dependent at all on my school. Meanwhile, challenge is dependent on your order, and your order then controls your roleplaying, because everyone loves being told how to play.
Bloodlines might be a little bit closer, but again, spellcasting is powerful and versatile and the point of the class, but not so much for challenge/order. I won't suddenly become a fan because one or two options are better than the others.
Domains and School choices directly affect your class abilities and how you play the character. It is no different than an order choice.Domains and schools directly change a class feature? Do they really? Exactly he same as challenge is attached to orders?Challenge doesn't change based on your order, you get added effects when you use it.
Domains and Specializations affect your spells and choices of which ones are available to you, your main class feature. Yes is the answer to your condescending question. They also have added benefits in the form of domain and school powers, much like the added effects onto your cavalier challenges from orders.Domains and specializations don't change your choice of spells at all actually, though they sort of give bonus spells, which isn't even close to being a part of the spell casting class feature like a challenge is apart of an order. Spells on their own in this case is a pretty awesome class feature with a lot of versatility, which challenge is very much not.
The answer, was no. My choice of domain or school doesn't radically change my spell casting class feature, nor is my spell casting dependent at all on my school. Meanwhile, challenge is dependent on your order, and your order then controls your roleplaying, because everyone loves being told how to play.
Bloodlines might be a little bit closer, but again, spellcasting is powerful and versatile and the point of the class, but not so much for challenge/order. I won't suddenly become a fan because one or two options are better than the others.
You're right, I guess opposition schools and choosing whether or not you channel positive or negative energy thus determining whether you cast cure or inflict spells has no effect on what spells you plan on preparing for the day or how you play the class. I was wrong.
You're right, I guess opposition schools and choosing whether or not you channel positive or negative energy thus determining whether you cast cure or inflict spells has no effect on what spells you plan on preparing for the day or how you play the class. I was wrong.
Those have nothing to do with domains or your specialized school, though obviously you can't choose your specialized school as a prohibited school.(Why would you?)
You're right, I guess opposition schools and choosing whether or not you channel positive or negative energy thus determining whether you cast cure or inflict spells has no effect on what spells you plan on preparing for the day or how you play the class. I was wrong.Those have nothing to do with domains or your specialized school, though obviously you can't choose your specialized school as a prohibited school.(Why would you?)
Your opposition schools have nothing to do with your specialized school? Choosing to specialize has no restrictions on how you play the character? Domains don't what spells you want to cast?
Do we even play the same game?
You're right, I guess opposition schools and choosing whether or not you channel positive or negative energy thus determining whether you cast cure or inflict spells has no effect on what spells you plan on preparing for the day or how you play the class. I was wrong.Those have nothing to do with domains or your specialized school, though obviously you can't choose your specialized school as a prohibited school.(Why would you?)Your opposition schools have nothing to do with your specialized school? Choosing to specialize has no restrictions on how you play the character? Domains don't what spells you want to cast?
Do we even play the same game?
Domains OMG give a handful of spells you might use once a day each and a bunch of pseudofeats
Opposition schools, restrict what spells you can prepare, by doubling the cost of the opposition spells. you can still use items and the like to get around opposition spells. such as Scrolls, Wands, Staves, Runestaves, and the like.
Opposition schools, affect a wizard more than Domains affect a cleric.
the following 2 schools you should never Ban
Conjuration
Transmutation
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You're right, I guess opposition schools and choosing whether or not you channel positive or negative energy thus determining whether you cast cure or inflict spells has no effect on what spells you plan on preparing for the day or how you play the class. I was wrong.Those have nothing to do with domains or your specialized school, though obviously you can't choose your specialized school as a prohibited school.(Why would you?)Your opposition schools have nothing to do with your specialized school? Choosing to specialize has no restrictions on how you play the character? Domains don't what spells you want to cast?
Do we even play the same game?
Domains OMG give a handful of spells you might use once a day each and a bunch of pseudofeats
Opposition schools, restrict what spells you can prepare, by doubling the cost of the opposition spells. you can still use items and the like to get around opposition spells. such as Scrolls, Wands, Staves, Runestaves, and the like.
Opposition schools, affect a wizard more than Domains affect a cleric.
the following 2 schools you should never Ban
Conjuration
Transmutation
Right, but the point is they still directly affect the way you play the character. That interaction between the player's choice and the options they have is the same thing you get from your choice of order as a cavalier.
Same thing with bloodlines and mysteries.EDIT: Also you forgot Divination and Abjuration.
You can also use Samurai Orders with a Cavalier, and vice versa, they are really the same thing.
I would be far from surprised if Paizo releases more Orders in some product, and you can write your own if you really want.
If you can't stand Classes with roleplaying flavor tie-in, then this is not the game for you: Paladin, Cleric, Monk, Barbarian...
I would be far from surprised if Paizo releases more Orders in some product, you can write your own if you really want.
If you can't stand Classes with roleplaying flavor tie-in, then this is not the game for you: Paladin, Cleric, Monk, Barbarian...
I'm urged to argue here... but there's this part of me that won't let me. Anyways, Homebrew isn't the best help in the world. Not every DM uses it, not every game allows it. If homebrew was a good topic in this forum I'd be able to go on about a flying alicorn riding cavalier with a super lance who was viable on foot and mount!
That's actually one of the things that bothers me about the cavalier. Hyper focused on mount, but I always thought being foot friendly and having a few reliable static bonuses was the best way to go. YMMV. I'm not the happiest with this class, but to be fair not every class can be for you.
If you can't stand Classes with roleplaying flavor tie-in, then this is not the game for you: Paladin, Cleric, Monk, Barbarian...
I'll just say that refluffing any of these classes is pretty easy, actually... Well, Paladin is a bit tricky, but not impossible. Barbarians, OTOH, are really easy, there are so many ways to describe Rage that the class feature's name barely matters.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Describe it how you want, but you cannot Rage if you are Lawful Alignment by RAW.
That is what connected that list of classes, the Alignment restrictions on abilities, Alignment being component of Roleplaying (or vice versa).
Cavalier Orders having less strict restrictions in terms of Alignment, but with role-playing tie-ins that are more open to interpretation, make it more flexible. Of course, you can always just go Ronin.
I've had great fun from playing "Samurai" who are more like nomadic Mongolian warriors.
People who go on and on about how Mount is all that Cavaliers got, while just ignoring the other actual class features they get, give no credence to their position. I have always sustained that Cavaliers/Samurai are a viable class even if you can't use the Mount consistently.
Describe it how you want, but you cannot Rage if you are Lawful Alignment by RAW.
Well, you can oddly enough. Through domains/inquisitions. Just not through the barbarian class, which is rather awkward when you think about it. More so with controlled rage.
People who go on and on about how Mount is all that Cavaliers got, while just ignoring the other actual class features they get, give no credence to their position. I have always sustained that Cavaliers/Samurai are a viable class even if you can't use the Mount consistently.
Well it is about what people don't like about the cavalier, not about what you love, and apparently the mount is a big part. I'd actually love the mount if it weren't so restrictive and if there were better alternatives for your mount based class features for charge and mount choices. Personal opinion is a big part. I suppose we could create a "what you love about the cavalier" section, which includes the roleplaying opportunity of being in an order(which oddly enough you can do with anything, but some people like incentive.), and we could also say "When he charges he's cool", and also "Teamwork feats can do awesome things!" which they can, though I feel too few sometimes.
Describe it how you want, but you cannot Rage if you are Lawful Alignment by RAW.
If only there was more to roleplay than allignment... Oh, wait!
I can describe Rage in a million different ways and still be chaotic or neutral.
Refluff does not necessarily mean "Refluff to mirror a completely opposite allignment"
I know this is a separate issue... But I really hate alignment! HATE IT! It adds nothing to the game but pointless restrictions! It doesn't help or expand roleplay in any way! In fact, it does the complete opposite of that!
/rant
The Barbarian Class was specifically what was being discussed in the exact sentence mentioning Rage....
Barbarians, OTOH, are really easy, there are so many ways to describe Rage that the class feature's name barely matters.
If you think the difference between Barbarian non-Lawful restriction and Rage Domain Clerics' Deity Alignment restrictions vs. Rage spell's non-restrictions is awkward, great, but that's the base assumption of this game, which is what comparing the value of a new class is referring to.
(thematically, it makes perfect sense to me, because the Domain Rage is not coming from the target's own non-Lawful Rage, but is coming from the Divine Source just like Rage spell is coming from an outside source. a Lawful Deity may offer the Rage subdomain because deities simply possess dominion over Domains that they wish to, it is not about what class they have)
All I'm saying is that it's possible and actually quite easy to refluff Rage to something different without having to make your character Lawful.
Then I went on to rant about alignment... Just because I hate it with a burning passion...
I can describe Rage in a million different ways and still be chaotic or neutral.
Refluff does not necessarily mean "Refluff to mirror a completely opposite allignment"
To remind you what I actually wrote earlier:
If you can't stand Classes with roleplaying flavor tie-in, then this is not the game for you: Paladin, Cleric, Monk, Barbarian...
That does not allude to 'completely opposite alignments', but clearly when playing with Alignment in the game, which is part of the rules we're discussing, saying "no Lawful Alignment" or "no Chaos" or "only Lawful Good" have role-playing ramifications, even if they don't dictate a single way to role-play, they are ruling out some approaches or some consistent moral choices.
So my point was that the Cavalier restrictions on SOME Orders can be even less restrictive, or certainly no more, since they don't care what your alignment is, they give some vague guidelines which can be fulfilled in different manners and by different alignments... In the context of a game where many classes do come with Alignment restrictions, that is just not outside the norm of role-playing restrictions.
If you don't like other classes' Alignment restrictions, I don't see how this isn't mostly in the same boat, and you can houserule both to your heart's content. If you can't house-rule, then you're already stuck with similar restrictions, so in the context of a comparison of the validity/viability of the class to the existing class options, it seems moot.
But I really hate alignment! HATE IT! It adds nothing to the game but pointless restrictions! It doesn't help or expand roleplay in any way! In fact, it does the complete opposite of that!
OK, I will get rid of Alignment, meaning get rid of Smite Evil, does that deserve a cookie?
The Barbarian Class was specifically what was being discussed in the exact sentence mentioning Rage....
In English you have to specify what your talking about. In the quote the subject was weird. You then quoted lemmy but responded to me... Little confusing. Probably way off topic from cavaliers now.
More on topic, I'm really happy that the cavalier doesn't have an alignment restriction, but I'm not so happy with edicts. Orders probably could've been made a less of a package deal I think.
But I really hate alignment! HATE IT! It adds nothing to the game but pointless restrictions! It doesn't help or expand roleplay in any way! In fact, it does the complete opposite of that!OK, I will get rid of Alignment, meaning get rid of Smite Evil, does that deserve a cookie?
Erm, or you could just edit some of the class features to affect everyone or a select individual, or in a more role play based game it would be about a certain roleplaying factor, though I never favor those. Most of the time you face your opposite alignment anyway in my experience, and the main targets are devils/undead and for some reason evil dragons, most of which don't actually need the evil alignment because its a mechanical gig to be an evil subtype outsider or an undead.
Are you okay? We're going way off topic, and I'm not sure if this is a healthy discussion if we're going to be sarcastic or leave flamebait in the post.
Again...
All I'm saying is that it's possible and actually quite easy to refluff Rage (and other class features) to something different without having to make your character Lawful.
It wasn't even a comment about Cavaliers, actually... I'm sure they can be refluffed just as easily as any other class, even if I don't like the class. I don't hate it either, I just don't have even the slightest interest in it.
OK, I will get rid of Alignment, meaning get rid of Smite Evil, does that deserve a cookie?
Meh... "Smite Evil/Good" could simply be named "Smite" and be usable on any creature. It'd still be limited by the number of daily uses, so no biggie. I don't think Paladins are OP. And if alignment was removed from the game, I'd have no problem seeing Detect Evil/Good disappear.
Anyway, let's not derail this thread into an alignment debate, okay?
@MrSin: Lemmy was the first person to mention Rage, in context of Barbarian Class.
I responded to that, respecting the context, in the post directly following Lemmy's.
You responded to that response of mine, joining the debate but apparently overlooking the context.
(at that point the responses became out of sync due to people writing/posting at the same time)
But sure, all the context referential posts can get confusing, and you can read one sentence that you want to respond to while overlooking the context.
...Yeah, if you go back to the Cavalier playtest, many people approached it as if Lawful alignment would be required, I'm also glad that didn't happen, because there's so many thematic roles appropriate to the class that are non-Lawful. I think it really works great for nomadic Mongol warrior tropes, not to mention Chaotic scheming noble warriors or nobles turned criminal/rebel (ala Ronin, per chance).
Incidentally, there are a bunch of ways to jack up the Morale bonuses, both Cavalier Favored Class, and means allies can use (including spells) to boost the bonuses they didnt' even create in the first place, which opens a whole realm of optimization around that. Of course, you have to be aware of that and understand the mechanics first in order to do so. Probably why something like Fighter or Rogue is better for many players especially starting out, and why APG+ Classes are considered 'advanced'. (Same goes for Magus, many consider Dervish Dance to be de rigeur - not exactly, but that is advanced build knowledge that the Class doesn't just shove in your face)
And maybe I'll repeat: I have no idea why the action for Tactician doesn't scale smoothly from Standard to Move to Swift instead of just waiting a long time to go from Standard directly to Swift.
That will be bad IMHO. First smite is already powerful as it is, so that would be mechanically umbalanced. Second it defeat the whole fluff of the class, at least for me.OK, I will get rid of Alignment, meaning get rid of Smite Evil, does that deserve a cookie?Meh... "Smite Evil/Good" could simply be named "Smite" and be usable on any creature. It'd still be limited by the number of daily uses, so no biggie. I don't think Paladins are OP. And if alignment was removed from the game, I'd have no problem seeing Detect Evil/Good disappear.
Anyway, let's not derail this thread into an alignment debate, okay?
Oh noes, he's smiting bad guys who aren't evil aligned! Whatever will we do when you can smite any antagonist instead of just the ones who are evil aligned and have nothing to do with your deity or justice! I made a thread on it a long time ago, its not that overpowered imo, but again off topic entirely from cavaliers...
I have no idea why the action for Tactician doesn't scale smoothly from Standard to Move to Swift instead of just waiting a long time to go from Standard directly to Swift.
I wish I knew myself, I'm usually not big on scaling action economy. I'm sure there's an idea behind it, but if its balanced as a swift it was probably balanced to begin with, especially because with scaling things like bardic performance and tactician only become more powerful and gain more options. Feels like punishment for entering the class, and it lacks incentive to actually use the ability if it means giving up your turn entirely.
That way he could smite animals, plants, golems, a whole new game of monsters. So yeah I think is unbalancing a perfectly fine as it is class feature.
I was sort of trying to push this back onto topic. Atm its useless in an a game with lots of neutrals or those exact foes. Which is rather unbalancing imo. Best leave this to another topic.
That is fair. But the ability to target every kind of enemies with challenge should be taken into acount for the sake of this thread.
Then mention it! That said, I don't think its that amazing, nor makes up for the dozens of things I have against it. Also, isn't it weird you can challenge all sorts plants, vermin, animals, and golems? Challenge also comes with a -2 penalty, x/day, makes order a choice of optimization, etc.
That is fair. But the ability to target every kind of enemies with challenge should be taken into acount for the sake of this thread.Then mention it! That said, I don't think its that amazing, nor makes up for the dozens of things I have against it. Also, isn't it weird you can challenge all sorts plants, vermin, animals, and golems? Challenge also comes with a -2 penalty, x/day, makes order a choice of optimization, etc.yeah is crazy. I would like to comment this commentary or yours " makes order a choice of optimization", but I have another thread for that.
Does somebody have played a hutmaster? it elimnate the mount from the equation and seems to be good enough.
I was going to bring that up. No matter what, the class has a big focus on his buddy. I'm sure if paizo was willing to create an archetype that did something for you in place of the mount that wasn't the sword saint people would be all over that.
You're right, I guess opposition schools and choosing whether or not you channel positive or negative energy thus determining whether you cast cure or inflict spells has no effect on what spells you plan on preparing for the day or how you play the class. I was wrong.Those have nothing to do with domains or your specialized school, though obviously you can't choose your specialized school as a prohibited school.(Why would you?)Your opposition schools have nothing to do with your specialized school? Choosing to specialize has no restrictions on how you play the character? Domains don't what spells you want to cast?
Do we even play the same game?
Domains OMG give a handful of spells you might use once a day each and a bunch of pseudofeats
Opposition schools, restrict what spells you can prepare, by doubling the cost of the opposition spells. you can still use items and the like to get around opposition spells. such as Scrolls, Wands, Staves, Runestaves, and the like.
Opposition schools, affect a wizard more than Domains affect a cleric.
the following 2 schools you should never Ban
Conjuration
TransmutationRight, but the point is they still directly affect the way you play the character. That interaction between the player's choice and the options they have is the same thing you get from your choice of order as a cavalier.
Same thing with bloodlines and mysteries.EDIT: Also you forgot Divination and Abjuration.
it is far safer to ban Divination and Abjuration than Conjuration and Transmutation
outside of Dispel Magic and it's sister spells, Abjuration is mostly defensive buffs that are inferior to the buffs provided by illusion and transmutation and generally more selfish.
and divination, outside of stuff like see invisibility and the like, is a school that can be dropped if you have a DM that is very restrictive on information, gives you the runaround, or tries to avoid spoiling the entire plot with one spell. and like common necromancy spells, many common divination spells are frequently banned in some areas.
|
Personally I really love the Cavalier in concept, a fighter from noble bearing who's been trained in the arts of the courts as well as the tactics of the field but it does have it's problems.
1.) That if playing a medium sized character you are basically locked into a horse from here till eternity which is pretty boring when compared to some of the options you get as a small character
2.) the tactician ability, though cool, is really pigeon holed by the whole "you can only share teamwork feats you've acquired as bonus feats" since this basically makes it totally worthless to invest in new teamwork feats outside your bonus ones since you can't share them and most players aren't going to want to go in on it with you. This is compounded by the shear lack of team work feats that are really good which further limits both your options and the uses of the ability.
3.) the charge. Now I love the idea but I hate how it is just tied to your mount and so much of the class is built around it. As stated before charge can be fun but when you build all the classes big abilities around it with no versatility to it the ability gets old fast. Combine that with it's restriction to only while mounted and the prevalence of dungeons and you are basically screwed out of the use of one of your primary abilities. That being said just being able to get an insane charge while on foot might help mitigate some of this but really some other options would be nice as well
Now I will say I'm very happy with the new huntsmaster archetype we got from animal archive.
On the topic of raising your Animal Companion's int : An animal with int above 2 is no longer an animal. I thing many GM would not let a player do that. I sure wouldn’t unless the player wants a NPC with 4 legs. I guess leadership could fix that.
Let's see if I can sum up what we've heard so far. (I'm summing up, not stipulating these points or necessarily agreeing with them.)
1) Very few players hate the cavalier, but many disdain the class and regard it as weaker than most other full-BAB classes.
2) The foremost reason for this dislike is the inclusion of a mount mechanic that is mechanically inferior to certain options for other classes.
3) The second reason is a feeling that "granting teamwork feats" isn't much use without a really good teamwork feat to take.
4) The third reason is that there's no supernatural reason for Orders granting special benefits.
4) Some kind of argument about whether horses can learn to walk a tightrope? I don't know, I kinda faded in and out there.
5) Those who dislike the class feel that it's good at what it does best, so it's not utterly useless, but anybody who doesn't want to run a mounted-combat specialist in a campaign which mostly takes place outdoors should avoid it.Did I miss anything?
Good work on summing up. I would like to add some stuff that you might be able to condense better than me
6) If you want a fighter with less feats, more skills and a mount? Samurai is more appealing.
7) The cavalier, as most classes that lacks spells:
•"kind of fail as a generic "build it yourself" class."
• Lack good cavalier only feast.
• don’t have any non-hitting-people problem-solving schticks worth taking about except the mount.
• Are not self-sufficient enough (Samurai at least get resolve).
• and there is nothing exclusive about the cavalier. They don’t have any cavalier spells and no cavalier talents or cavalier rage powers. As pointed out above there are not many cavalier only feats. They can’t even pick the “Swift Aid” feat without having Combat Expertise and Int 13.
8) Speaking of exclusive: there is even a cavalier class called the samurai that is closer to what I want of a cavalier than the cavalier. As for Animal Companions, there are many more classes that get an Animal Companion. Classes that are far more appealing, versatile and self-sufficient.
This is slightly off-topic, but related to a cavalier build I am working on. Does Charge Through feat allow you to select the charge target as the overrun target?
If so, does this combo work well (assuming a hit): Charge + Charge Through (same target) + Greater Overrun (free AoO) + Trample (can't avoid overrun) = 2 attacks, with the charge attack dealing extra damage
It's about the only way I can see getting multiple attacks per round on a target without Pounce.
The real reason for all the cavalier hate?
Alain.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
• Lack good cavalier only feast.
Just for that, I'm only inviting Cavaliers to my next party.
We'll have Barbeque, drinks, music, dancing, delicious caek, and hot & cold running women (men for the lady Cavaliers) so they'll feel the ❤.
On the topic of raising your Animal Companion's int : An animal with int above 2 is no longer an animal. I thing many GM would not let a player do that. I sure wouldn’t unless the player wants a NPC with 4 legs. I guess leadership could fix that.
Actually, last I checked the way it works is that an animal never ceases to be an animal by raising its intellect in that manner. It only gains more bonus tricks and can take a wider selection of feats and skills. Never learns to cease being an animal though. Regardless, 3 or 4 intellect isn't exactly up to human standard, and its not like the animal could is going to start its own civilization of intelligent animals(though I could argue a few cats I know might try...) I've seen GMs rule it a variety of ways, but I know in PFS you absolutely can't make your animal smarter than an animal with it(which is sad, because rolling handle animal is a pain and slows gameplay.)
We'll have Barbeque, drinks, music, dancing, delicious caek, and hot & cold running women (men for the lady Cavaliers) so they'll feel the ❤.
Caek? What is this strange delicacy you offer... This must be a rare once in a life time chance to eat it! Supposing caek is edible of course.
You're right, I guess opposition schools and choosing whether or not you channel positive or negative energy thus determining whether you cast cure or inflict spells has no effect on what spells you plan on preparing for the day or how you play the class. I was wrong.Those have nothing to do with domains or your specialized school, though obviously you can't choose your specialized school as a prohibited school.(Why would you?)Your opposition schools have nothing to do with your specialized school? Choosing to specialize has no restrictions on how you play the character? Domains don't what spells you want to cast?
Do we even play the same game?
Domains OMG give a handful of spells you might use once a day each and a bunch of pseudofeats
Opposition schools, restrict what spells you can prepare, by doubling the cost of the opposition spells. you can still use items and the like to get around opposition spells. such as Scrolls, Wands, Staves, Runestaves, and the like.
Opposition schools, affect a wizard more than Domains affect a cleric.
the following 2 schools you should never Ban
Conjuration
TransmutationRight, but the point is they still directly affect the way you play the character. That interaction between the player's choice and the options they have is the same thing you get from your choice of order as a cavalier.
Same thing with bloodlines and mysteries.EDIT: Also you forgot Divination and Abjuration.
it is far safer to ban Divination and Abjuration than Conjuration and Transmutation
outside of Dispel Magic and it's sister spells, Abjuration is mostly defensive buffs that are inferior to the buffs provided by illusion and transmutation and generally more selfish.
and divination, outside of stuff like see invisibility and the like, is a school that can be dropped if you have a DM that is...
I disagree, Read Magic are the only spells you get should your book ever be stolen, and Detect Magic is one of the most important spells in the game.
I disagree, Read Magic are the only spells you get should your book ever be stolen, and Detect Magic is one of the most important spells in the game.
Indeed, but if don't mind having only those two cantrips prepared, banning divination is not that much of a problem...
I'd still choose Necromancy or Enchantment, though... Or get an Elemental school and then use "Opposition Research" to get access to my one banned school... lol
I disagree, Read Magic are the only spells you get should your book ever be stolen, and Detect Magic is one of the most important spells in the game.Indeed, but if don't mind having only those two cantrips prepared, banning divination is not that much of a problem...
I'd still choose Necromancy or Enchantment, though... Or get an Elemental school and then use "Opposition Research" to get access to my one banned school... lol
Depending on my build I 100% agree with you. Only time I wouldn't is when I plan on making my Conjurer Samsaran healer who takes Healer's Touch. Then I am giving up evocation.
Anyway, back on topic. The point is, the choice of order directly affects how you should play the cavalier, and if your domain and school choices, or bloodline and mystery choices, don't affect the way you play the character at all then you probably don't have just a problem with cavaliers.
Anyway, back on topic. The point is, the choice of order directly affects how you should play the cavalier, and if your domain and school choices, or bloodline and mystery choices, don't affect the way you play the character at all then you probably don't have just a problem with cavaliers.
To be honest, I think your enforcing your opinion that school/domains work exactly like orders, rather than viewing what the point was when the statement was made. Stop that, not everyone thinks like that and they aren't wrong for thinking of something a different way. My domain choice doesn't suddenly turn every spell I cast into a new spell with new effects. My order changes the way my challenge works. One directly affects the other, one doesn't. Worse, you have a variety of options with domains, mysteries, and even schools through subschools. They are much more modular and build your own friendly. Even picking your prohibited schools is a selection, and only reduces a wide variety of options(though you can still utilize them!). Orders, you pick one and its static. You don't get to change anything or make any choices after you pick that order. That's a problem imo. At level one this is what you picked and you don't get to make any changes or choices a long the way to build your own character.
That's something I don't like about the cavalier. Fake choices. You get to pick an order, that's awesome! But your order is locked into being one exact way, and your choice of order is influenced by what you want your challenge to be. The class is highly restrictive. You get to pick an order, but you don't get to make any choices about the order. You get to pick a mount, but there really isn't a choice. You get to pick a play style, but there's really only one play style that its class features have a focus on. If you don't want to play that playstyle, or if you don't like that mount, or if the orders don't appeal to you, you can't fix it outside of house rules.
It isn't some much hate as the fact I find them boring. There simply isn't anything about them that I find all that interesting.
Also, there is the fact that I simply don't like classes with animal companions. Whenever I play a druid or a ranger it is actually the first thing I get rid of is the animal companion (and wild empathy), and the fact that I don't really have an option to to that with the Cavalier is something of a downer for me.
On the topic of raising your Animal Companion's int : An animal with int above 2 is no longer an animal. I thing many GM would not let a player do that. I sure wouldn’t unless the player wants a NPC with 4 legs. I guess leadership could fix that.Actually, last I checked the way it works is that an animal never ceases to be an animal by raising its intellect in that manner. It only gains more bonus tricks and can take a wider selection of feats and skills. Never learns to cease being an animal though. Regardless, 3 or 4 intellect isn't exactly up to human standard, and its not like the animal could is going to start its own civilization of intelligent animals(though I could argue a few cats I know might try...) I've seen GMs rule it a variety of ways, but I know in PFS you absolutely can't make your animal smarter than an animal with it(which is sad, because rolling handle animal is a pain and slows gameplay.)
If you roll you scores your human Cav could theoretically end up with an int score of 3.
As for animals and their int score. I’m no rules expert but the PRD says this:
Animal
[...]Traits: An animal possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).
•Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).
And
INTELLIGENCE (INT)
Creatures of animal-level instinct have Intelligence scores of 1 or 2. Any creature capable of understanding speech has a score of at least 3.
A Horse with int higher than 2 is probably a no with many GMs