Likely because of the way extradition agreements are worded. It's entirely possible that Iceland and Ecuador are able to extradite to the US anybody for any reason, while Hong Kong doesn't deport people accused of crimes of political nature.Not that subtle. Considering the number of cyber attacks against the US that originate in China and considering this is someone with supposed insider information on the US security I'd say his choice of vacation city is curious at best. Less eyebrows would be raised if he were in Singapore, Korea, or Japan. Better yet, why not Iceland or Ecuador? Places championing freedom of speech and supporting whistle blowers?
Are we supposed to think that he's not there to make some sort of sale of information?
According to the Dave Lindorff article above, Hong Kong provides asylum to Chinese dissidents; don't see why they can't provide asylum to American whistleblowers.
According to the Finnish newspaper, he's not exactly safe from the US in Hong Kong, and would be better off hiding in Russia or Iceland.
Then again, the validity of this claim is shaky at best if you ask me. I have no idea how reliable Finnish news networks are...
Yeah, I hope Comrade Xi doesn't sell him out like he sold out Pyongyang.
Vive le Bachuan!
It's kind of ironic. The US government engages in terrorism towards its own citizens, with the excuse that they are fighting terrorism.
Antiwar.com was promoting this: Sign the White House Petition to Pardon Snowden
Let's see if Wyden can get the intelligence director to face perjury charges for sworn testimony...
Just giving the petition a friendly bump for you people~
Why should we be talking about this guy? Just because he has documentation to back up what anyone with a brain had already figured out as soon as the Patriot Act was passed.
Besides, the only phone in history that wasn't tapped was the one that Bell used to call Watson on.
You ever been on a party line? There has NEVER been any reasonable expectation of privacy on the telephone. If you had such an expectation, that was totally irrational of you.
His story will totally be backpage by next week, and you will never hear about it again. Just ask Winston Smith down at the Ministry of Truth how that works.
We should be talking about Snowden (and Stellar Wind/Prism by extension) because this doesn't need to drop in a week. Seriously.
Why isn't anyone dragging out all the old Bush-era excuses? "If you have nothing to hide, you shouldn't have a problem with it" was a good one; oh, and "You want the terrorists to win!"
I imagine many people are stuck between but-Barack-seemed-like-such-a-nice-guy-so-I'll-continue-to-blindly-believe- everything-he-says and I'm-pretty-"normal"-so-I-shouldn't-really-worry-about-this. Both outlooks are just as dangerous as the old versions.
Okay so I was watching the Daily Show tonight (my only source for US news) and I see the crazy folks over at Faux are dumping on this guy . . . and when you start sounding like the crazies at Faux news it's time to walk away from the argument. So no more questioning the source of this leak for me.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
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Okay so I was watching the Daily Show tonight (my only source for US news) and I see the crazy folks over at Faux are dumping on this guy . . . and when you start sounding like the crazies at Faux news it's time to walk away from the argument. So no more questioning the source of this leak for me.Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Yes, but you should still get a new clock instead of waiting until 7:37 to check what time it is. :P
If so, then Glenn Greenwald is a chump.
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Non-US competitors of the US companies involved in PRISM look to this like a god-send.
Most non-US people and companies did not realize just how easily the US government and agencies could access to what they consider their private info. Now they do.
I remember some months ago, when US intelligence agencies warned allied countries about the risk of buying chinese hardware that could be used to spy on them. Most security experts found this quite funny as they gathered that the same US intelligence agencies were doing exactly the same spying when people used US hardware.
I think that, in the name of fairness, equal treatment, reciprocity and respect, EU governments and agencies should be granted the same kind of easy access to private information on US citizens that the US government and agencies obviously have on EU citizens.
Maybe, but I don't like baseless character assassination and I'd rather not be seen as part of that group. I'll leave any of the real investigation to the journalists. While I still feel something is a bit off about the story thus far I imagine everything will come out eventually. I am hesitant to call this more important then Watergate or the Pentagon papers though especially as we haven't yet verified all his claims yet.Okay so I was watching the Daily Show tonight (my only source for US news) and I see the crazy folks over at Faux are dumping on this guy . . . and when you start sounding like the crazies at Faux news it's time to walk away from the argument. So no more questioning the source of this leak for me.Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
a lot of this guy's story needs to be verified. Its not impossible that he's telling the truth but a lot of this stretches credibility/sounds like the plot of a 90s conspiracy film. I don't think he's a hero, patriot or spy or traitor just yet. He is a criminal in that he broke the law, however.
The fact that they were able to do this stuff was reported a few years ago. Hell it was even on the NSA wikipedia entry. The full scope wasn't known, but it was clear they had access to a lot of information. There's no problem with them having access to information. The problem is the checks on this ability are apparently worthless as a rubber stamp court never denies them. It pretty much nullifies the 4th amendment when it comes to electronic information.
It would be like having to require search warrants to search people's homes...except the judge issuing the warrants is Vic Mackey..
also, this in many ways.
Yes, but you should still get a new clock instead of waiting until 7:37 to check what time it is. :POkay so I was watching the Daily Show tonight (my only source for US news) and I see the crazy folks over at Faux are dumping on this guy . . . and when you start sounding like the crazies at Faux news it's time to walk away from the argument. So no more questioning the source of this leak for me.Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
I can't afford one. :-p
Maybe, but I don't like baseless character assassination and I'd rather not be seen as part of that group. I'll leave any of the real investigation to the journalists. While I still feel something is a bit off about the story thus far I imagine everything will come out eventually. I am hesitant to call this more important then Watergate or the Pentagon papers though especially as we haven't yet verified all his claims yet.Okay so I was watching the Daily Show tonight (my only source for US news) and I see the crazy folks over at Faux are dumping on this guy . . . and when you start sounding like the crazies at Faux news it's time to walk away from the argument. So no more questioning the source of this leak for me.Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Well, healthy skepticism about a figure that chose to make himself public doesn't qualify in my mind as character assassination... You don't have the Nationally Published Journalism Prestige Class which would be required... I'm not trying to talk you one direction or the other, though. I think this, like a few other issues that have been discussed lately on these boards, is a problem for the Obama administration. But every administration has their issues. *shrug* Bush did for sure, and that's coming from an (admittedly centrist) Republican. Lets face it, this crap started on his watch.
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I find this article awesome:
Bank Robbery Suspect Wants NSA Surveillance Records for Defense
Okay, that's actually rather clever. Also leaves me thinking they don't have much of a defense for the man, otherwise.
I find this article awesome:
Bank Robbery Suspect Wants NSA Surveillance Records for Defense
that's interesting..
Not that subtle. Considering the number of cyber attacks against the US that originate in China and considering this is someone with supposed insider information on the US security I'd say his choice of vacation city is curious at best. Less eyebrows would be raised if he were in Singapore, Korea, or Japan. Better yet, why not Iceland or Ecuador? Places championing freedom of speech and supporting whistle blowers?
Are we supposed to think that he's not there to make some sort of sale of information?
Because he would have been extradited ASAP ?
Hong Kong is one of the few places where he doesn't have to fear to be seized and silenced even before he could blow the whistle.
I'm not at all surprised that the NSA got itself backdoors in each and every US software companies, and that it does spied on everybody (remember the ECHELON program).
There are no direct flights from Honolulu to Iceland or Ecuador (or anywhere in Europe or Latin America).
Hong Kong was probably his best bet for a direct flight out.
Okay so I was watching the Daily Show tonight (my only source for US news) and I see the crazy folks over at Faux are dumping on this guy . . . and when you start sounding like the crazies at Faux news it's time to walk away from the argument. So no more questioning the source of this leak for me.
Was that the episode with Mavis Staples?
'Cuz I was pleasantly surprised at what song she covered.
Philistine.
Why would he be extradited? People didn't even know he was the source of the leaks until he revealed himself. Supposedly he'd taken time off work to get treatment for epilepsy. I mean it's possible that he was being watched and that they would have picked him up the moment he tried to switch flights or something but if they suspected he was the leak why let him fly to China in the first place? There are lots of places in the world that don't have extradition treaties with the US. I said I wasn't going to question this guy's character but he did have choices. Hong Kong is convenient, I'm sure their are direct flights, and I'm sure it's the safest city in China, but I got to wonder if it really was his best choice.
Because he left for China before the story broke. I have seen rummors that the FBI was looking for him for 3 days before the story initially broke, but he was already in China by then.
Why would he be extradited? People didn't even know he was the source of the leaks until he revealed himself. Supposedly he'd taken time off work to get treatment for epilepsy. I mean it's possible that he was being watched and that they would have picked him up the moment he tried to switch flights or something but if they suspected he was the leak why let him fly to China in the first place? There are lots of places in the world that don't have extradition treaties with the US. I said I wasn't going to question this guy's character but he did have choices. Hong Kong is convenient, I'm sure their are direct flights, and I'm sure it's the safest city in China, but I got to wonder if it really was his best choice.
Well, step 1) Snowden gives intel to a bunch of journalists.
Step 2) NSA becomes aware of it as soon as they babble on phone or by e-mail about it, or at the very least by reading said newspapers (BTW NSA agents reading us just now are very upset about your lack of faith in theit abilities) and trace backwards the journalists' trail to discover when and where they have met the trait... scumb... I mean, whistleblower, and who he is.
Step 3) if the poor sod hadn't got the good idea to make himself unavailable, that's a one way trip to whatever black prison is currently in use. Thanks, Patriot act.
Better to go public, and from a safe place (well as safe as you can). I guess drones aren't so insconspicuous in Hong Kong's skyline.
NB : okay, I'm pushing a little the paranoid slide in that last one. But how far ? If the US spooks had had the opportunity of silencing Snowden before he went public, what would have happened ?
By itself, it's quite sad that most people (including me and most non US people I know) are willing to believe anything about the US governement evil intents without batting an eye. Guess that's the result of really bad PR (as in condoning torture, secret prisons, Guantanamo still here, assassination by drones, reckless wars, etc. ad nauseam).
Using metadata to find Paul Rever
This is an example of how a simple set of metadata can be used to identify persons of interest, done in a humorous and easily understood way.
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This guy says he's done nothing wrong, but yet he ran. IMO: Innocent men don't run.
Morality and legality aren't always the same thing.
This guy says he's done nothing wrong, but yet he ran. IMO: Innocent men don't run.Morality and legality aren't always the same thing.
agreed. I personally think he should have gone about this very, very differently.
This guy says he's done nothing wrong, but yet he ran. IMO: Innocent men don't run.Morality and legality aren't always the same thing.
And in the US, they're rarely the same thing.
And in the US, they're rarely the same thing.This guy says he's done nothing wrong, but yet he ran. IMO: Innocent men don't run.Morality and legality aren't always the same thing.
You know, I'm probably one of the most vociferous anti-USA people on here, but even I think that's quite a stretch.
But I know what you're getting at.
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His reasons for sacrificing his freedoms for others' and Julian Assange shows support. We've assumed our government was spying on us for years...turns out we were right.
Emphasis mine.
The reason is that no one is surprised, nor should we be. There have been hundreds of creditable stories of NSA boxes in data centers for years, phone tapping and all that. This leak only flushes out the scope of the reality we knew we were living in already, Snowden isn't blowing the whistle, its been blowing for years.
agreed. I personally think he should have gone about this very, very differently.This guy says he's done nothing wrong, but yet he ran. IMO: Innocent men don't run.Morality and legality aren't always the same thing.
How?
If he'd stayed in country, he'd be in jail and incommunicado right now.
If he'd gone through channels instead of to the media, we'd have heard nothing of it.
Hong Kong might not have been the best choice, but that's for practical reasons as much as anything.
unfortunately, he broke the law to do what he did, so he probably would have gone to jail. but I doubt the super secret black bag over your head brigade would have shown up if he had both complained through channels and gone to the media. He also really shouldn't have gone to Hong Kong as a first stop-extradition or no, it makes it look like he had secrets to sell to the highest bidder. I also would have noted that a lot of the things being complained about have been legal for years and phrased my complaints differently. I don't think he's a super spy or hero or traitor like I said before, but I'm starting to think he may not be a very rational planner.
unfortunately, he broke the law to do what he did, so he probably would have gone to jail. but I doubt the super secret black bag over your head brigade would have shown up if he had both complained through channels and gone to the media. He also really shouldn't have gone to Hong Kong as a first stop-extradition or no, it makes it look like he had secrets to sell to the highest bidder. I also would have noted that a lot of the things being complained about have been legal for years and phrased my complaints differently. I don't think he's a super spy or hero or traitor like I said before, but I'm starting to think he may not be a very rational planner.
I have to wonder, if he had secrets to sell, why would he have gone to the press in the first place? I can't think of any spy in the history of espionage who did that.
EDIT--damn ninjas.
unfortunately, he broke the law to do what he did, so he probably would have gone to jail. but I doubt the super secret black bag over your head brigade would have shown up if he had both complained through channels and gone to the media. He also really shouldn't have gone to Hong Kong as a first stop-extradition or no, it makes it look like he had secrets to sell to the highest bidder. I also would have noted that a lot of the things being complained about have been legal for years and phrased my complaints differently. I don't think he's a super spy or hero or traitor like I said before, but I'm starting to think he may not be a very rational planner.I have to wonder, if he had secrets to sell, why would he have gone to the press in the first place? I can't think of any spy in the history of espionage who did that.
EDIT--damn ninjas.
yeah ninjaed by thejeff. I'm not saying that he *did* have secrets to sell, Just that it may seem thatway to a skeptic. Also bringing in the media would be a great way to cover up some tracks or at the very least provide some deniability. Then again, I am not an espionage expert.
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yeah ninjaed by thejeff. I'm not saying that he *did* have secrets to sell, Just that it may seem thatway to a skeptic. Also bringing in the media would be a great way to cover up some tracks or at the very least provide some deniability. Then again, I am not an espionage expert.unfortunately, he broke the law to do what he did, so he probably would have gone to jail. but I doubt the super secret black bag over your head brigade would have shown up if he had both complained through channels and gone to the media. He also really shouldn't have gone to Hong Kong as a first stop-extradition or no, it makes it look like he had secrets to sell to the highest bidder. I also would have noted that a lot of the things being complained about have been legal for years and phrased my complaints differently. I don't think he's a super spy or hero or traitor like I said before, but I'm starting to think he may not be a very rational planner.I have to wonder, if he had secrets to sell, why would he have gone to the press in the first place? I can't think of any spy in the history of espionage who did that.
EDIT--damn ninjas.
I can also see it as a great way to get buyers to approach you.
yeah ninjaed by thejeff.
Only by two minutes! And that's because I was busy looking up Khalid el-Misri and Abdullah Ocalan.
When it turned out that I had misremembered Ocalan's case (I thought he got kidnapped in Italy, but it was in Kenya), I dropped the case I was building of CIA abductions in European democracies.
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Lets get one thing straight about this "he's fled to China" business. Hong Kong is really only pretty much, kinda, sorta, technically in the PRC. They have their own executive, legislative and judicial branches of government and 95% of the time the HK government does whatever it wants and Beijing really can't do a thing about it without stirring up a huge pot of shit.
The reason that Snowdon went there is that first off it is his bet bet given that he had to get somewhere on a nonstop flight from Hawaii. Secondly, HK's extradition treaty with the US is unique because it allows for the government to step in and block the extradition for basically whatever reason they want (this was negotiated to stop the HChinese from trying to get political dissidents who had fled to the West so it is ironic that it is helping someone who needs to get away from the US government). So the real reason that he chose Hong Kong is that it gets China involved and China is one of the countries most willing to be able to and want to give the US government a diplomatic black eye over something.
It doesn't sound to me like an ill thought out plan or the product of delusional thinking to me. Especially since the character-assassination engine is in full swing focusing on how he dropped out of HS and so on and so forth. It is just the by about him "potentially defecting" to "Communist China" that was an especial load of horseshit and really rubbed me the wrong way.
For the record, I support him and actions like his, when necessary are vital for the health of a civil society.
It doesn't sound to me like an ill thought out plan or the product of delusional thinking to me.
I largely agree. There was some disquieting evidence in the one of the articles above (not the Dave Lindorff one, but the other one in the same post) of HK's extradition of Muslim dudes to Libya for Qaddafi to torture, though, so it is a bit of dice-toss.
But what are you going to do? Revealing the secrets of American imperialism is a tricky business no matter how many precautions you take.
Lets get one thing straight about this "he's fled to China" business. Hong Kong is really only pretty much, kinda, sorta, technically in the PRC. They have their own executive, legislative and judicial branches of government and 95% of the time the HK government does whatever it wants and Beijing really can't do a thing about it without stirring up a huge pot of s*~+.
The reason that Snowdon went there is that first off it is his bet bet given that he had to get somewhere on a nonstop flight from Hawaii. Secondly, HK's extradition treaty with the US is unique because it allows for the government to step in and block the extradition for basically whatever reason they want (this was negotiated to stop the HChinese from trying to get political dissidents who had fled to the West so it is ironic that it is helping someone who needs to get away from the US government). So the real reason that he chose Hong Kong is that it gets China involved and China is one of the countries most willing to be able to and want to give the US government a diplomatic black eye over something.
It doesn't sound to me like an ill thought out plan or the product of delusional thinking to me. Especially since the character-assassination engine is in full swing focusing on how he dropped out of HS and so on and so forth. It is just the by about him "potentially defecting" to "Communist China" that was an especial load of h%&&!$+!$ and really rubbed me the wrong way.
For the record, I support him and actions like his, when necessary are vital for the health of a civil society.
You can think that if you wish, but I think you're a bit naive if you think China won't make a move against Hong Kong to get information that could be valuable. Also, physically, he is in the next best place to defect to China, although I sincerely doubt he would do that.
Or the NSA fed him information they wanted to do so they can find there leak and Snowden fell for it hook, line, and sinker.
maybe. A bit out there but maybe.