Hello, guys.
I have a new campaign coming up and one of my players is interested in having a unicorn mount. However, with Leadership, you have to be at least 10th level to get a unicorn. Not only that, the unicorn looks severely underpowered when compared to its folks as 8th level cohorts, such as the Shadow Mastiff or the Giant Owl; it looks more in line with the Pegasus, a 6th level cohort. Should I just houserule unicorns to be lower level?
Unicorns don't have dimension door, all they can do is teleport within their forests.
By level 10, the healing a unicorn gives is very limited. In fact, the only relevant ability I can see a unicorn bringing to a level 10 party is the very highh wild empathy. When it comes to level 10 challenges, a unicorn has low hp, low attack bonus, low damage and low AC. It should probably restrict itself to use aid another actions while fighting defensively and wishing really hard something does not hit it, because then it would be dead.
Unicorn, Cohort Level: 8th.
Yes, and that means you can only get one as a cohort at character level 10th.
Um, you are overlooking the most powerful ability of the unicorn: a continuous magic circle against evil. That is a permanent protection vs evil for all within a 10 foot radius of the unicorn! That power is not something to be underestimated and probably the greatest reason for its high cohort level.
Um, you are overlooking the most powerful ability of the unicorn: a continuous magic circle against evil. That is a permanent protection vs evil for all within a 10 foot radius of the unicorn! That power is not something to be underestimated and probably the greatest reason for its high cohort level.
Magic Circle Against evil is a long duration 3rd level spell. Getting it 24/7 is nifty, but nothing to write home about. Essentially, the unicorn is getting the party an extra 3rd level spell slot. Maybe two if they are going against an evil summoner.
At the same time, the giant owl gets true seeing as a swift action, and it's also an 8th level cohort. I wouldn't mind the giant owl being better than the unicorn, it's just that is so much better it's not even funny - it is actually relevant in combat, it flies, it has decent Perception and Knowledges and freaking True Seeing.Still not sure if it's enough to bump it down to level 7. It does seem a tad more powerful than creatures at that range.
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As Poul Anderson points out, most men who qualify for a unicorn's company don't want it to be known that they do.
I've never heard that the unicorn's status had anything to do with it...
Actually, the unicorn description in the Bestiary makes very clear that the virgin thing is a myth.
I find some of those cohort/leadership level estimates (like the unicorn or pegasus) to be questionable.
Yeah, that's my point. Maybe it's just that the Giant Owl is too damn good for its level, not the other way around.
LOL it doesnt do enought damage therefore it is to hight pfff... a unicorn cohort is such a great roleplay opportunity... sigh
LOL it doesnt do enought damage therefore it is to hight pfff... a unicorn cohort is such a great roleplay opportunity... sigh
And so what? Isn't a Giant Owl cohort a great roleplaying opportunity? Why should someone be punished by choosing a 'great roleplaying opportunity'? It's not a matter of damage, it's a matter of not bringing anything relevant to the table. Have you even read the thread?
I would take a Unicorn cohort over a Giant Owl any day of the week...
Yes true stinken I have read the thread and a big owl thingy is not a roleplaying opportunity it is just a way of locomotion...
I would take a Unicorn cohort over a Giant Owl any day of the week...
I bet you would be very happy for the one encounter it would last.
Unicorn: AC 15, hp 34.The 3 first CR 10 creatures in d20pfsrd:
Adlet - 3 attacks at +17/+12/+7, 1d8+7 damage. Average damage from a full-attack: 31. Dead unicorn.
Aluum - 2 slams at +21/+21, 2d10+8 plus paralysis. Average damage 38. Very dead unicorn.
Movanic Deva - 3 attacks at +17/+12/+7, same as the adlet. However, it hits for freaking 3d6+7 damage. Average of 52,5 damage. That's one very, very dead unicorn.
Sure, you could give barding to the unicorn. It might add around +6 to AC (maybe +8 if it's magical and you have a lot of gold to spend). It still dies, because AC 21 still sucks against those attack bonuses.
Yes true stinken I have read the thread and a big owl thingy is not a roleplaying opportunity it is just a way of locomotion...
Just because you want it. The owls are intelligent and fierce and have as much personality as any unicorn. Sure they can be treated as a means of transport. So can unicorns. Heck, owls even have more out of combat abilities, with their Knowledges and high Perception. Also, don't like owls? Compare a unicorn to a derhii, an aranea, a griffon, a pixie, a shadow mastiff, a tanuki or an 8th level Fighter. All are 8th level cohorts, all are better compared to the unicorn. The unicorn is the only CR 3 creature among the 8th level monster cohorts and it shows.
Good to know that cohorts should be expressed in survival rate and not in mystical power...
I find some of those cohort/leadership level estimates (like the unicorn or pegasus) to be questionable.Yeah, that's my point. Maybe it's just that the Giant Owl is too damn good for its level, not the other way around.
I'm inclined to agree on that point. I'd be hard-pressed to say that the unicorn is really every bit as useful as a level 8 humanoid. By the rules, a level 8 humanoid would be a CR 7. The Unicorn is a CR 3. That's a pretty substantial gap.
Heck, you could get an overall stronger mount by taking a level 8 Druid/Cavalier/etc as your cohort, and riding the cohort's animal companion. To me, that's a sign that the unicorn is rather overvalued as a cohort. Quite a few of the other options are in similar straights.
That said, I do love the flavor of monster cohorts. I just wish the rules made them a bit more competitive with their humanoids-with-class-levels counterparts.
Good to know that cohorts should be expressed in survival rate and not in mystical power...
Sarcasm does not a point make. As mentioned before, cohort level is not about survival and not about mystical power or whatever, it's about bringing something to the table. And aside from references to My Little Pony, a unicorn brings nothing. If you want to spend a feat to quote a girl's cartoon, good on you. I want my players to get a little more bang for their buck.
Also, the tanuki has more mystical power and a better survival rate compared the unicorn. How about an 8th level Cleric? It does everything a unicorn can. How about an 8th level First Worlder Summoner? Not only does it do everything a unicorn can better, it can summon a freaking unicorn.
So in your game only active killing power matters, and nothing else, i think you are missing out on a great deal of the game...
I'm inclined to agree on that point. I'd be hard-pressed to say that the unicorn is really every bit as useful as a level 8 humanoid. By the rules, a level 8 humanoid would be a CR 7. The Unicorn is a CR 3. That's a pretty substantial gap.Heck, you could get an overall stronger mount by taking a level 8 Druid/Cavalier/etc as your cohort, and riding the cohort's animal companion. To me, that's a sign that the unicorn is rather overvalued as a cohort. Quite a few of the other options are in similar straights.
That said, I do love the flavor of monster cohorts. I just wish the rules made them a bit more competitive with their humanoids-with-class-levels counterparts.
I agree completely. I think there are cases where the rules cover it rather well (I'd say Pegasus is pretty much where it belongs), but some are overvalued, such as the unicorn. I think I'll lower the level, or I might just allow it without a feat, using only roleplaying. I mean, get the player to convince the unicorn to follow her and all that.
So in your game only active killing power matters, and nothing else, i think you are missing out on a great deal of the game...
I never said that. Please drop the fallacy.
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True Shinken, I think you're correct and clearly most of the posters agree with you: the unicorn is over-rated by the cohort system.
I would definitely drop it down: I've given a unicorn friend (cohort) to a level 4 character before (in lieu of treasure) and it was not unbalanced. I would suggest allowing your player to get the unicorn at level 6 or 7: well worth a feat at that stage and not over-powered.
Why on earth would one take a Unicorn into battle..
I agree that if a characters is pure of heart a unicorn would bond with her and there would be no need to spend a feat.
Unicorns are the stuff that legends are made of.. LEgend is a Movie one should watch indeed...
Why on earth would one take a Unicorn into battle..
I agree that if a characters is pure of heart a unicorn would bond with her and there would be no need to spend a feat.
Unicorns are the stuff that legends are made of.. LEgend is a Movie one should watch indeed...
Unicorns are the stuff of legends, so what? Do you think anyone in the Legend movie was 10th level? No one is saying unicorns are not cool, we are just saying they are too weak to be 8th level cohorts.
True Shinken, I think you're correct and clearly most of the posters agree with you: the unicorn is over-rated by the cohort system.
I would definitely drop it down: I've given a unicorn friend (cohort) to a level 4 character before (in lieu of treasure) and it was not unbalanced. I would suggest allowing your player to get the unicorn at level 6 or 7: well worth a feat at that stage and not over-powered.
Yeah, the characters will be level 5, I'll give her the unicorn and see how it goes.
To be honest, I'm starting to think that monster cohorts would work just fine if they were pegged at CR-equivalent to a class-leveled humanoid. That would admittedly open up a lot of powerful options, but I do wonder if any of those options would be stronger than a well-built equal-CR humanoid with class levels.
An awakened Giant Owl?
An awakened Giant Owl?
Giant Owls cannot be the traget of Awaken, they are magical beasts, not animals
Even though they can't speak, they can still learn drow sign language.
Actually, I think all of the monster cohorts are underpowered compared to the equivalent standard races and classes. I cannot think of any monster cohort that is as powerful as a standard cohort of a core race and class at equivalent level. I think most of the level equivalents for monster cohorts were inherited from D&D 3.5 (with minor tinkering), which makes these level assignments the last vestige of the otherwise obsolete level adjustment system.
Yeah I would allow my players to gain their Unicorns at lower level. While the Unicorns certainly possess some neat abilities - The Magic Circle against evil includes an AoE-shield against any mind control effect- they are just too squishy to accompany any adventurers of that level.
Even if the GM won't directly target the unicorn it would still die quite some through some AoE blasts.
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To be honest, I'm starting to think that monster cohorts would work just fine if they were pegged at CR-equivalent to a class-leveled humanoid. That would admittedly open up a lot of powerful options, but I do wonder if any of those options would be stronger than a well-built equal-CR humanoid with class levels.
The problem with universally translating CR directly to level is that some abilities have limited application in a single combat encounter, but are very powerful if available through an adventuring day. These abilities don't contribute much to CR, but would have a big effect on PC/cohort power compared to a humanoid with class levels. This is especially true for at-will or constant abilities since these don't run out during extended adventuring.
For example, the Silvanshee's Truespeech and Speak with Animals don't make it any more difficult to fight, but they mean that a PC with a silvanshee companion can talk to pretty much anything using the silvanshee as a translator. That plus its scouting ability (high stealth, flight, gaseous form minutes/day, dimension door 1/day) makes it more useful than a 3rd level caster or rogue.
A unicorn is probably not as powerful a cohort as an 8th level humanoid, but I'd definitely pick it over a 4th level humanoid. Their skills and combat ability are roughly comparable to a 4th level ranger, and then on top of that they get their healing SLAs, immunities, and permanent magic circle against evil. They also have fantastic stats. If you treat a unicorn as a level 4 humanoid and then start adding PC levels (Inquisitor maybe?), you'll get a very powerful cohort.
The unicorn isn't a fighting cohort. It allows you to teleport within the entirety of its forest. It's constantly immune to mind-affecting abilities and grants this to you. It can serve as a mount, with a 60 foot ground speed. It's almost more like a magic item than a cohort. It it attacks at all, it should be using its powerful charge to attack an opponent your or an ally have flanked for it.
If Chastity, rather than virginity, is the requirement, then a person who abstained from any pre-marital or extramarital sex would qualify.
To be honest, I'm starting to think that monster cohorts would work just fine if they were pegged at CR-equivalent to a class-leveled humanoid. That would admittedly open up a lot of powerful options, but I do wonder if any of those options would be stronger than a well-built equal-CR humanoid with class levels.The problem with universally translating CR directly to level is that some abilities have limited application in a single combat encounter, but are very powerful if available through an adventuring day. These abilities don't contribute much to CR, but would have a big effect on PC/cohort power compared to a humanoid with class levels. This is especially true for at-will or constant abilities since these don't run out during extended adventuring.
For example, the Silvanshee's Truespeech and Speak with Animals don't make it any more difficult to fight, but they mean that a PC with a silvanshee companion can talk to pretty much anything using the silvanshee as a translator. That plus its scouting ability (high stealth, flight, gaseous form minutes/day, dimension door 1/day) makes it more useful than a 3rd level caster or rogue.
A unicorn is probably not as powerful a cohort as an 8th level humanoid, but I'd definitely pick it over a 4th level humanoid. Their skills and combat ability are roughly comparable to a 4th level ranger, and then on top of that they get their healing SLAs, immunities, and permanent magic circle against evil. They also have fantastic stats. If you treat a unicorn as a level 4 humanoid and then start adding PC levels (Inquisitor maybe?), you'll get a very powerful cohort.
Fair points there—some monsters do have abilities that are a lot more useful than their CR would indicate. Just to pull out another random example, imagine a PC picking up a genie cohort and getting free wishes.
Monster Cohorts are always going to be a bit tricky to balance. It doesn't help that a lot of their abilities are prone to varying in usefulness depending on the circumstances/campaign style, and not all of them age well as you level up. Truespeech is amazing at level 3, but unimpressive by level 12, and the unicorn's teleport ability within its forest is going to vary wildly in usefulness depending on where/how big its forest is and how relevant it is to campaign.
Bottom line, I think starting from a base of the monster's CR and then making adjustments/tweaks for any abilities that skew that particular game balances out a lot better than the way monster cohorts currently work.
Yes, pretty much all of the monster cohorts effective cohort levels are too high to be meaningfully contribute to anything.
Compare a unicorn to an 8th level paladin.