RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I have something of an addiction to making melee/caster hybrids in PFS organized play (I have an Eldritch Knight, a melee cleric, an Arcane Duelist bard...) so I'm trying to break out of that habit and make a new As-Far-Away-From-Martial-As-Possible caster. I'll be dumping STR to 7 just to avoid "temptation".
So I have this mental image of the untouchable mage, free of armor or weapons, standing with his arms extended as he exerts his will over the battlefield.
Sort of like the CRB art for the Mystic Theurge, which I originally was going to go with for this concept, until I learned that a straight-up sorcerer actually casts more spells than the MT. Lame.
So anyway, I'm looking for advice on what class to go with for the consummate caster. Needs to be PFS-legal (no custom items/abilities, needs to be fun long before 12th level, etc) and I want to avoid touch attacks (melee or ranged, but especially melee) and keep buffs to a minimum; save-or-suck, battlefield control, blasting, and so forth are what I'm after. So for instance if were doing a sorcerer, a bloodline power that lets me toss out a save-based debuff would be preferable to claws or an elemental ray or a party buff or whatever.
I have a slight preference for a spontaneous caster, but I could be persuaded otherwise if the feel is right.
Thanks!
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I'm haven a fun with my Wizard. Who every one in my area dislikes/ thinks I'm insane for playing. He has proven to be very effective with bombs at low level. He is focusing on Transmutation, and Conjuration spells. The idea behind this abomination that is The Mad Bomber. Bombs for damage keeping all my spells for crowd control/ debuff / buff. So you can be a blaster with all the bombs. Crowd control god wizard with your spells. And enough HP for them to think your a fighter.
Dwarf
Wizard (Arcane Bomber)
Con 18
Int 18
HP 11 (Wizard 4 + Con Mod 4 + Favored Class 1 = 9 HP Per level)
Thinking of getting toughness at some point.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Throwing bombs around definitely fits the description I wrote in the OP. Good thing I took the time to try and describe what I was going for, or I might have gotten completely unhelpful replies. Maybe someone else can come in and tell me how awesome a bad-touch cleric or a wildshape-focused druid would be.
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Id suggest a single level of Crossblooded Sorcerer and the rest as a Spellbinder Wizard. The 2 bloodlines being Orc and Draconic (Red) while the wizard picks up the Fire Elemental Arcane School. With this combo all ur fire spells that deal damage will do an extra 2 points per die rolled, u will have an extra slot for the spells on the fire list to cast, and u can chose the fire spells u like to be ur bond spells so ur normal slots can be what ever u want. In all its great blasting and still has the ability of versatility since u dont have to have blast spells prepared if there ur bound spells.
Hrm; no touch attacks, exerting will over the battlefield and keep buffs to a minimum. Focus on save-or-suck and blasting.
How about Treantmonk's God wizard? Specialize in Conjuration (Teleportation) and stock upon Summon Monster, Glitterdust, Stone Call and the many other wonderful conjuration Battlefield Control spells there are.
Otherwise... how about a Heavens Oracle focusing on Awesome Display and Color Spray? Nice for save-or-suck, plenty of healing utility for the party...
Conjuration is filled with battlefield control right from the start, even if you ignore casting summon monster, you still have grease at level one, and create pit at level 2. Both of which shape the battlefield. Conjuration wizards are powerful, and occasionally going out of school helps. Transmutation is buffs, but I've always thought it was about the party. Slow and haste both can shift the tide of battle for melee.
Do you have any more specific questions? General advice is best found in the handbooks I've always thought. Treantmonk's guide is a little old, but the general advice from his 3.5 guide is actually the first time I looked at one of the guides to play and show's a bit about god wizard. Dictum Mortums guide to familiar still has quite a bit that applies to familiars.
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I'd agree - straight up sorcerer or wizard. Just pick the types of spells you're thinking of doing.
If you like save-or-sucks, then maybe Fey bloodline sorc with enchantment spells, and a couple of blasts as backup to use against mindless enemies. Or a conjuration focus for battlefield control (grease, glitterdust, create pit, web). Not sure what bloodline would be best for conjuration - probably just arcane for the versatility.
Or a wizard with all of those in your spellbook, picking different spells depending on what you want to do that day.
Or you could go witch. They get a lot of spells of the type you're looking for, with hexes on the side.
But it definitely sounds like you're looking for a pure arcane caster. It's just a matter of picking which type.
I can recommend a serpentine sorcerer in PFS, with spell focus necromancy and threnodic spell later on. That is really "willing" things around :)
I have big fun with mine so far, even she is only level 1.
Now if a had a sylph boon, i would totally play a sylph wizard with the racial archetype. You can then get hints what to prepare, listening to the wind^^ You still can be strong enough to do whatever.
Another nice thing is making use of rime spell. Snapdragno fireworks and rime spell work very well as a elemental cold or marid sorcerer. Probably one of my next characters since i don´t see where i would get a sylph boon hehe.
Something else that´s itching me for quite some time is the red riding hood/ LoL Annie theme. Gnome or halfling druid probably either shapeshifting or conjuring a wolf or bear or some other nastieness on your head.
I am not very familiar with PFS, but how about a witch. They are debuff nightmares from what I have seen.
Sorcerer/oracle
Get deaf as a curse. Then Magical Lineage Magic missile. and maybe waynag spell hunter on silent image.
Then get still spell
cast magic missile with no components. They are your mind bolts. Have thought bubles appear above your head for the words you wish to say with silent image. Just walk around in heavy armor without saying anything and shoot mind bolts.
shoot mind bolts.That's telekinesis, Kyle.
That's mind splody powers.
My first and still favorite pfs character sounds just like what you are describing. It is a rakshasa blooded tiefling sorcerer. The race gives a double bump to casting with fiendish sorcery and charisma. I took feats and stats to drive my saves through the roof, at level 11 my will saves on enchantments are in the low 30s.
Sorcerers can retrain lower level spells so I always keep a usable spell that can hit each save. Everything else is utility or battlefield manipulation spells. I bought a grip of level 1 pages of spell knowledge so I can do most anything I want in that range.
I took the infernal bloodline to boost my charm DCs even more, but after earning access to the fairy dragon I bought an ampule of false blood arcana to change out some of the bloodline powers I wasn't using for a familiar. It just so happened that this also boosted my enchantment DCs again here recently when I picked up a robe of arcane heritage (I think this is the name, the one that treats your sorcerer level as 4 higher for the purpose of powers.)
I have a decoy ring to keep myself greater invisible any time I think I might earn aggro. Most GMs will let me trigger it with a withdraw, some claim I have to be threatened first though there is nothing RAW to say this, so I use polypurpose pancea to put myself to sleep and trigger the ring, the dragon immediately wakes me.
Also the dragon is outfitted with muleback cords and a heavyload belt so it can carry me or whoever else it might need to. This ups my action economy and safety tremendously.
This character has been pretty balls to wall fun from the get go, but he did have several levels as a glass cannon before I got the ring, and a few lower to middle levels I got some hell from a few GMs that didn't like me controlling the enemies so I learned to not go claiming everything as my personal property just because I can, but as a whole I can't really think of anything I would have rather done with this style character.
Wayang Spell Hunter and other similar traits cannot be used to lower a spell to below it's level, it can only be used after metamagic has been applied, and if that metamagic has raised its level by 1 or higher.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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So in my original post I say I want the "consummate caster", and that I have a mental image of an armorless, weaponless, robe-wearing caster throwing spells all over the place and having a feel reminiscent of the CRB art for the Mystic Theurge.
And the suggestions I've gotten?
Throw bombs!
Spam color spray over and over and then heal people!
Wear full plate and shoot single-target damage spells!
Bring a nasty animal companion/eidolon!
Charm people!
Thank you to the few people who actually bothered to read more than just the word "caster" before throwing ideas in.
What´s wrong with charming? Enchantment/compulsion has some really nice control spells and with a serpentine sorcerer you can do them on other creatures much earlier. Besides you can still have other combinations as elemental spell and rime spell or whatver you wish.
So in my original post I say I want the "consummate caster", and that I have a mental image of an armorless, weaponless, robe-wearing caster throwing spells all over the place and having a feel reminiscent of the CRB art for the Mystic Theurge.
And the suggestions I've gotten?
Throw bombs!
Spam color spray over and over and then heal people!
Wear full plate and shoot single-target damage spells!
Bring a nasty animal companion/eidolon!
Charm people!Thank you to the few people who actually bothered to read more than just the word "caster" before throwing ideas in.
Since I am the only person who used the word charm,I will assume the last one was about me. I would suggest that it is you that didn't read. I rarely charm with this character despite being exceptional at it. I listed several things I have done to make this character effective and some of the troubles along the way.
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Yeah, I'm not sure why you're unhappy with charm suggestions. You mentioned save-or-suck in the first post, and enchantment is the main school for that sort of thing. That's why I mentioned fey bloodline with enchantment spells. You'd have high DCs for stuff like Sleep and Daze right from level 1, then add Hideous Laughter, Deep Slumber, etc as you level up. I'm only up to level 4 with my sorc of that type, so I don't remember offhand which spells go best with that build at higher levels, but there are plenty. I did it with Tattooed Sorcerer, with the tattoo boosting evocation, so I use blasting spells as my backup plan for things with no minds.
But really, it sounds like what you want is Treantmonk's "god" wizard. His guide may be a little out of date, but the core concepts still apply. Conjuration school, Teleportation subschool is probably the most powerful option these days for that type of build. Just ignore his recommendations to focus on summoning if you don't want to worry about managing critters. Although having a couple of those spells in your spellbook as a backup plan for when you have a table with little or no meat shields isn't a bad idea. That's the great thing about wizards - you can do something different every time you play them.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Jiggy,
What do you see them standing back and doing? And what is your playstyle? From my limited arsenal...
Ksenia stands fairly close, being a witch most stuff isn't long range or multi-target.
Rey stands farther away (or "Way-the-frak-away" as I say) and enjoys the long range spells. He's only 5th level, but stone call can make huge swaths of the battlefield hostile, and snapdragon fireworks allows him to stand way back there and annoy people while throwing his 'real' spells.
Just for some examples.
So, evocation and battlefield control.
Sorcerer is good as they have bloodlines which add to your elemental damage. Maximizing damage requires Crossblooding which really limits your Spells Known, probably not what you want.
Play a Sorcerer with either the Draconic or Primal bloodlines. Stock up on evocation spells of your chosen element, take Spell Focus: Evocation, Spell Specialization: Evocation and whatever other blasting feats are required...
The Irrisen Icemage feat is also worth a look. Let´s you change energy types three times a day and cast cold spells from higher level.
Don´t be frustrated, the main thing on this board is always about damage^^
What i suggested is a bit more about roleplay (at least from my perspective). Charming also has sleep and it´s really cool to put animals, magical beasts and monstrous humanoids to sleep at early levels.
I would prefer serpentine for the broader enchanting range to fey or infernal anytime.You are just someone who is irresistible then.
Or the cold sorcerer that launches snapdragon fireworks which dazzle and entangle? As a move action each round one on higher levels?
Else you can go with the normal blasting or summoning stuff.
For summoning take a look at egorian academy summoner wizard and read Treantmonks guide then.
Oh for visually dramatic i recommend the spell ice spears from inner sea magic or reign of winter if you have that. A pillar of ice spearing someone from below and tripping them, after wards granting you cover is really nice.
I've seriously considered a subfocus on cold with Rime Spell, though cold isn't exactly my favorite element. Is there similar metamagic for other energy types, like electric?
Concussive for sonic, burning for fire and acid, flaring affects light fire and electricity, toppling for force, and a few others likely. Rime is one of the best though, entangled is far more powerful than most of your other options, and cold spells aren't the rarest. You may consider Admixture wizard for the power to change your spell's element. Evocations strength is in metamagic and side effects. I'm not sure how admixture works with feats and effects, and it says some things about it are left up to DM's discretion so YMMV.
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I've seriously considered a subfocus on cold with Rime Spell, though cold isn't exactly my favorite element. Is there similar metamagic for other energy types, like electric?
Shadow Grasp lets you entangle with darkness spells, but you need to take two relatively crappy prerequisite feats. Toppling spell lets you trip people with Force, and that's it for damage type specific feats afaik.
You could go with an Admixture focus school Evoker and change the element of any spell to Cold, but it's not worth it imo.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Shadow Grasp lets you entangle with darkness spells, but you need to take two relatively crappy prerequisite feats. Toppling spell lets you trip people with Force, and that's it for damage type specific feats afaik.
Just to clarify on toppling spell, it has to have the force descriptor. I mention this only because the trait 'havok of the society' from the faction guide adds a point of force damage to everything, but doesn't add the descriptor. Rereading that dashed my hopes of toppling fireballs. :-(
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Shadow Grasp lets you entangle with darkness spells, but you need to take two relatively crappy prerequisite feats. Toppling spell lets you trip people with Force, and that's it for damage type specific feats afaik.Just to clarify on toppling spell, it has to have the force descriptor. I mention this only because the trait 'havok of the society' from the faction guide adds a point of force damage to everything, but doesn't add the descriptor. Rereading that dashed my hopes of toppling fireballs. :-(
Does Toppling work with anything besides Magic Missile? There really aren't many force spells out there, and Wall of Force doesn't work with this.
There are a few force spells, in particular Battering Blast can be made into something really powerful and overwhelming. Sonic is the one I have trouble finding on the arcane list.
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Shadow Grasp lets you entangle with darkness spells, but you need to take two relatively crappy prerequisite feats. Toppling spell lets you trip people with Force, and that's it for damage type specific feats afaik.Just to clarify on toppling spell, it has to have the force descriptor. I mention this only because the trait 'havok of the society' from the faction guide adds a point of force damage to everything, but doesn't add the descriptor. Rereading that dashed my hopes of toppling fireballs. :-(Does Toppling work with anything besides Magic Missile? There really aren't many force spells out there, and Wall of Force doesn't work with this.
Sign of Wrath
Force PunchBattering Blast
Twilight Knife
Mage's Sword
Explosive Runes
Chain of Perdition
Should all work with toppling. Spiritual Weapon and Blade Barrier would also work for a divine caster who takes the feat.
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Huh. I've never even heard of most of those. I never would have guessed that Explosive Runes or Blade Barrier would be force damage. I should have thought of Spiritual Weapon.
Now you've got me (half jokingly) considering switching traits on my new cleric to take Magical Lineage: Spiritual Weapon, then pick up Toppling as my level 3 feat. :P The fact that it would get a trip attempt every round, if it hits, would be awesome. So can the Spiritual Weapon take an AoO from someone standing up after it knocks them prone? (I know it can't, but the idea of it is hilarious)
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So in my original post I say I want the "consummate caster", and that I have a mental image of an armorless, weaponless, robe-wearing caster throwing spells all over the place and having a feel reminiscent of the CRB art for the Mystic Theurge.
And the suggestions I've gotten?
Throw bombs!
Spam color spray over and over and then heal people!
Wear full plate and shoot single-target damage spells!
Bring a nasty animal companion/eidolon!
Charm people!Thank you to the few people who actually bothered to read more than just the word "caster" before throwing ideas in.
I am going to be running a fetchling master summoner who due to a background story element can/will summon his eidolon 1/year just to say hi and who also believes that a "true" mage would never use rods/staves/wands or any sort of weapon.
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Something visually dramatic: fire, lightning, flashes of blinding light, loud explosions, upheavals of stone, objects and enemies hurtling through the air... that kind of thing.Jiggy,
What do you see them standing back and doing?
What are ur thoughts then on what i suggested earlyer in the post with the sorcerer wizard?
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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What are ur thoughts then on what i suggested earlyer in the post with the sorcerer wizard?Something visually dramatic: fire, lightning, flashes of blinding light, loud explosions, upheavals of stone, objects and enemies hurtling through the air... that kind of thing.Jiggy,
What do you see them standing back and doing?
Ah yes, kept meaning to reply to that. I don't have the book for the Orc bloodline and I'm not sure how keen I am on playing an elf, but I'm very intrigued by the concept of dipping a crossblooded sorcerer for a pair of arcanas and then switching to another casting class for my "real" levels. Lots of possibilities there.
sorcerer/oracle/wizard
magivcal knack
waves oracle for cold spell to slow them
wizard admixture to make cold spells
rime spell to make them entangled too
sorcerer for the dual blood line to add +2 damage for each die of cold damage you roll.
Spell specilaiziation
mage tattoo evo
plus tons of 0 level spells
this is one of my characters
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Also see the very thorough complete wizards guide (original thread) which covers a lot of ground and books. And has done some of the bookkeeping for you.
Something visually dramatic: fire, lightning, flashes of blinding light, loud explosions, upheavals of stone, objects and enemies hurtling through the air... that kind of thing.
Picking a few decent sorceror or wizard spells that might fall into that category.
Level 1: Color Spray, Grease, Silent Image, Ear piercing scream
L2: Create Pit, Glitterdust, Stone Call, Web, Flaming sphere, Pyrotechnics, Burning gaze (on your familiar)
L3: Aqueous orb, Mad monkeys, Sleet storm
L4: Telekinetic charge, Ice Storm
L5: Cloudkill, Wall of Force/stone, hungry pit, Icy prison, Telekinesis
I like the lesser persistent rod to make those L1-3 spells extra sticky. Persistent slow and persistent glitterdust are favorites into the high levels of PFS.
Fun from the off and once you have level 2 spells its solid. I prefer the toolbox of the wizard myself, but if you are shunning buffs (Haste!) and utility then maybe sorceror is an option.
it is not that ridiculous. Since they are a level lower then what you can cast it is not that over powering.
I admit it is a nice feature and usualy trumps the 1 hp. I think having a theme for the caster is more powerfull. Ie an fey bloodline kitsune with favored class enchant spell DC+1/4. You get crazy high DCs. The more you can stack into it the more powerfull it becomes.
But I tried to give you my first idea as somethign different and creative. Not powerfull. You are not very open with what of our ideas you thought of.
Its a temptation. You don't get that many over a PFS career though. It'd be cantrips from 1-3. Can't say it isn't nice though.
Well my 3 class build has 8 cantrips, 2 cleric spells 4 a day, 1 sorcerer spell 4 a day, and 5 wizard spells one evocation a day.
I am not saying it is a bad idea. I just think it is not worth building a concept around. By the time you are 4th and 5th level those level one spells begin to lose their potancy. Plus you get so many spells as a sorcerer. I honestly never ran out of spells. Now my 7 sorcerer/1 oracle has never even used half of his spells. So I chunk out the high levels spells as much as I can. So this makes those level 1 spells I traded HP for not nearly as valuable. The cantrips I think are always valuable since you can spam them. But the amount you get makes you pick garbage ones eventually. So That HP you woulda got...
A human sorcerer combined with pages of spell knowledge, a filled spellbook and a ring of spellknowledge can be very versatile and powerful.
Also the razmiran priest archetype is good for UMD divine things, or tattoed sorcerer for a familiar, like a greensting scorpion for +4 initiative. You could use something flying for delivering some nice touchspells, or you wait untill level 3 and take spectal hand for that (in which case i really recommend toughness).
sorcerer/oracle/wizard
magivcal knackwaves oracle for cold spell to slow them
wizard admixture to make cold spells
rime spell to make them entangled too
sorcerer for the dual blood line to add +2 damage for each die of cold damage you roll.Spell specilaiziation
mage tattoo evo
plus tons of 0 level spellsthis is one of my characters
Why bother with wizard at all in this build? If the focus is to blast, then why not stay Sorcerer? There are bloodlines that let you make everything cold.
Personally I like a battlefield controller wizard who focuses on evocation, because no one sees it coming.
If you wanna be as far away from martial as possible, then a debuffer or battlefield controller is probably what you want.