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RAW, Charisma is personality, life force, magnetism and such -- when one's CHA drops to zero from Ability Drain spells, one become unconscious.
Here's the situation:
A Lawful Good (for example) PC gets hit in the Surprise Round for a -6 CHA drain. And then again before his turn in Init. he gets hit again for another 9. After losing 15 CHA while Flat Footed it becomes his turn in the Round -- and his CHA is a 3. He's not unconscious, but man, it's funny to look at the Bestiary to see what monsters have a like CHA score.
Here's the question:
According to the description of CHA, can the PC still be played as LG (or whatever)?!?
Isn't there a very strong argument that he HAS to be Neutral (like ants or a bat or some other Animal or Vermin)?
And while we're at it let's say our LG PC with a CHA of 18 (-15) is a Paladin. Can he still be a Pally?
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Yes.
Animals are animals because they have less than 3 Int, not Cha. And it doesn't affect his alignment in any way, shape, or form either.
This seems like another thinly veiled "I hate Paladins how can I f@%! them today?" thread TBQH.
The corporeal form has been affected but there has been no change to the soul of the paladin. This is like asking if you can still be a buddhist after I apply an electrode to the speech center of your brain. I.E. the grounds for a hilarious experiment.
In all seriousness, just because he has suddenly been cursed with an awful personality and positively repugnant inter-personal skills doesn't mean he can't still piously worship his deity and follow the tenets of his faith and personal morality.
Also, none of the base or core classes have an actual base stat requirement to have levels in them.
he can even still be just as pretty... just a little more coarse in interpersonal relations... hope he weren't the face.
ability damage is also alot less crippling long term.
I'd probably take a step back and ask what the "fluff" is for the Cha-draining monster. It's almost certainly not "this monster turns you into an animal, morally speaking", I imagine.
PC can still be played as LG or whatever he was prior to the ability drain.
No, he does not have to be neutral. There is no rules argument for it. The only argument is what you perceive cha to be.
Yes he can still be a pally. Is taking cha drain contrary to the paladin code? Has he done something contrary to the paladin code?
I'm so very tired of the idea that low charisma automatically equals boorish, abrasive jerk.
I'm so very tired of the idea that low charisma automatically equals boorish, abrasive jerk.
So what does it equal? Charisma is your ability to exert your will upon others, be it diplomacy or intimidation. Low charisma would likely be a lack of people skills.
At least it is no longer 'lol, -1 cha mod=fugly'
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You become the classic milquetoast, unwilling or unable to persuade anyone else to do what you say: "I say, there, friend, maybe you might want to not sacrifice that innocent to your demon lord? I mean, if it's convenient, as long as it doesn't put you out." :)
This does raise an interesting question, though. What if the drain in question is Intelligence, rather than Charisma, and it drops you below 3? Wasn't it a rule that creatures with that low an intelligence don't have the capacity for moral reasoning, and are thus True Neutral?
This does raise an interesting question, though. What if the drain in question is Intelligence, rather than Charisma, and it drops you below 3? Wasn't it a rule that creatures with that low an intelligence don't have the capacity for moral reasoning, and are thus True Neutral?
Undead.
This does raise an interesting question, though. What if the drain in question is Intelligence, rather than Charisma, and it drops you below 3? Wasn't it a rule that creatures with that low an intelligence don't have the capacity for moral reasoning, and are thus True Neutral?
"Creatures of animal-level instinct have Intelligence scores of 1 or 2."
Just because your Int has been drained, would not immediately make your alignment change to NN. If it remained at 2, over time your alignment would shift to NN as you would be acting purely on instinct, without regard for morality or law. The same as a neutral character who helps revive a random commoner from near death does not immediately jump to Good alignment. Changes take time (with exceptions for drastic actions eg. burning an orphanage).
No ability drain causes alignment change. If you're a good person, then get zonked in the head and lose a ton of intelligence, now you're just a stupid good person.
Maybe, in real world sense, people with severe mental disorders have been demonstrated to lack basic understanding of ethical behavior, but in game terms, there is no link in the rules between alignment and any ability score.
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The link between understanding, ethical understanding, and alignment, that's mighty dangerous territory.
Is the Int 18 Wizard more aligned than the Int 7 Paladin, because he's so much more intellectual? Are the intellectuals also the ethical (and anti-ethical) elite?
Is a fussy bearded old man who doesn't really get involved in adventuring but has written academic papers about it, more Good than a paladin that actually kills evil dragons, because the academic dude has more intellectual sophistication?
Is the socio-intellectual upper class also the ethical upper class?
Do we really want to go there?
Do we really want to go there?
We don't need to, the rules already did. Once you have an intelligence of three or higher, you are a moral being capable of making choices that influence your alignment. There is no quantification in that quality.
Ahem.... correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't ability damage actually not touch the base stat, just things 'associated' with that stat.
A pally with 20 char and 15 points of damage to it still has 20 Char (and some penalties when using it). A LG creature with 10 int and 9 points of damage to it still has 10 int (and penalties when using stats associated with it).
Does this solve that pesky aspect at all?
Does this solve that pesky aspect at all?
For ability damage, yes.
Ability drain, on the other hand, actually lowers that attribute... so, would the alignment of a character drained to Int 1 change to neutral?
I think that if you have inteligence drained to less than 3, you no possess animal intelligence and can no longer make moral decisions. Over time you well trend towards neutral if this situation is not corrected by restoring your intelligence. You also lack the ability to speak at int less than 3.
As far as cha drain, you're force of personality decreases. People find you as interesting as melba toast. However, it doesn't affect your capacity for reasoning or your alignment. However, it does severly hinder a paladin because he can no longer cast spells and many of his abilities are dependent upon his cha score. He is however still a lawful good paladin, as bad as he might be at it.
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This seems like another thinly veiled "I hate Paladins how can I f%~* them today?" thread TBQH.
Ouch.
It doesn't really matter one way or the other but I Paladins. Pallys and Wizards are my two Classes.
If my OP came across differently, please reread without that in mind; it's completely unintended.
It was just so funny / awesome when it happened in the game it made me wonder.
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I'd probably take a step back and ask what the "fluff" is for the Cha-draining monster. It's almost certainly not "this monster turns you into an animal, morally speaking", I imagine.
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Curse of the Crimson Throne
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The OP writes RAW, then quotes some fluff about CHA, then goes into complete houserules territory.
Too true, LOL.
I struggled with whether I should put this in the Suggestions Forum because, ultimately, that's probably where this belongs. But it just seems so close to RAW -- just look at the definition / description of Charisma in the Ability Score chapter.
But you're right, of course.
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Ben, back in the day there were minimum requirements, 9 was the score you needed in a particular Ability to gain a level in the particular Class (with a few notable exceptions such as Paladin). But the rules back in the day were haphazardly placed, sporadically designed and grossly incomplete. There was no rule for what would happen to your Thief if his DEX went below 9 or your Magic-User if his INT went below 9.
And on topic, I agree, "unwinnable" roleplay situations are bad design -- another form of turtling, railroading, and/or trumping a PC's ability to adventure.
Is a fussy bearded old man who doesn't really get involved in adventuring but has written academic papers about it, more Good than a paladin that actually kills evil dragons, because the academic dude has more intellectual sophistication?
Only if he inspires a thousand people to go out and kill an Evil Dragon. And, of course that was his intention.
Also fussy bearded old men were once young. Who is to say that they didn't go out and slay Dragons or Demons when they were young?
I'm so very tired of the idea that low charisma automatically equals boorish, abrasive jerk.So what does it equal? Charisma is your ability to exert your will upon others, be it diplomacy or intimidation. Low charisma would likely be a lack of people skills.
At least it is no longer 'lol, -1 cha mod=fugly'
I would say the character becomes more passive in social situations. They are quiet, and when they do speak, they are easily ignored. They are still the same person they were before, but they are now a non-entity in social interactions.
I'd probably take a step back and ask what the "fluff" is for the Cha-draining monster. It's almost certainly not "this monster turns you into an animal, morally speaking", I imagine..
Curse of the Crimson Throne** spoiler omitted **
In this specific case, I would say that the PC feels very… restrained. He may know just what to say or do, but when he goes to do it, he just feels like there's something holding him back… leading to faltering words and half-hearted actions.