Sorry, I forget, were we doing 20pt buy or elite array on this one?
20 point buy.
Ok, Gyr the druid and Spiney his animal companion are built.
I'm going to do a second companion that does not get so big as well, but it might be tomorrow/the day after.
Quick Edit: Took out the buffs that weren't hours/level to better match with everyone else.
Gyr the Druid
Druid 10
Human (Gyr) Druid 10 Animal(Feather) Domain
N Medium Humanoid (human) (Huge Animal (Allosaurus)
Init +1; Senses Perception +22; Low-Light Vision, Scent
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Defense
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AC 24 , touch 8, flat-footed 24 (+10 armor, - 1 Dex, + 1 deflection, + 6 Natural wildshape)
hp 78 (10d8+28)
Fort +9, Ref +2, Will +13(+2 vs charm/compulsion)
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Offense
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Speed 50 ft.
Melee Bite +9(2d6+6+4PA)x2
2x Claw +9(1d8+6+4PA)x2
Special Attacks: Pounce, 2x Rake +9(1d8+6+4PA)x2
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 18 , Cha 10
Base Atk +7; CMB +15 ; CMD 25
Feats Power Attack, Armor Prof (Heavy), Natural Spell, Boon Companion, Wild Speech
Traits Birthmark, Reactionary
Skills Handle Animal +13(+4 for companion), Perception +29, Survival +21, Kn(Nature) +14; All others untrained
Languages Common, Druidic
Other Gear Full-Plate +1 (AC10)Dragonhide Wild(cost of +3) 19,300, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +4 16,000, Handy Haversack 2,000, Ring of Protection +1 2,000
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Special Abilities Wildshape 4/day
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Active Buffs:
Wildshape (Huge Allosaurus: +6 strength, -4 dex, +6 natural armor)
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Spells
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0: 4
1: 4+1; 3xFeather Step, Goodberry, Calm Animals
2: 4+1; 3xBarkskin, Reduce Animal, Feather Fall
3: 3+1; Companion Mind Link, 3xFly
4: 3+1; Magic Fang, Greater, 2x Freedom of Movement, Summon Natures Ally 4 (Animals)
5: 2+1; 3xBeast Shape 3 (Animals)
Spiney his Spinosaurus
Spinosaurus (Spiney)
N Large Animal (Huge Animal (Allosaurus)
Init +2; Senses Perception +1; Low-Light Vision, Scent
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Defense
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AC 28, touch 10, flat-footed 26 (+5 armor, + 2 Dex, + 11 Natural Armor)
hp 76 (9d8+27)
Fort +9, Ref +8, Will +6(+4 vs enchantment)
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Offense
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Speed 50 ft.
Melee Bite +17(2d6+14+4PA+1MF)
2x Claw +17(1d8+14+4PA+1MF)
Special Attacks: Pounce, 2x Rake +17(1d8+14+4PA+1MF)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 38, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 3, Wis 13 , Cha 3
Base Atk +8; CMB +15 ; CMD 29
Feats Toughness, Power Attack, Iron Will, Armor Proficiency (Light), Extra Item Slot (Belt)
Skills Fly +18, Linguistics -3
Languages Common
Other Gear Large Chain Shirt +1 (AC5) Barding 2,000, Amulet of Mighty Fists +1(Ghost Touch) 4,000, Belt of Giant Strength +4 16,000
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Special Abilities
--------------------
Active Buffs: Beast shape is cast in first round
Magic Fang, Greater (+1 to all weapons)
Beast Shape 3 (Huge Allosaurus: +6 strength, -4 dex, +6 natural armor)
Ok, Witchfire time. Here goes nothing.
Gyr and Spiney are walking along in the swamp for whatever reason they are there. Since the witchfire is waiting in ambush, I'm assuming it is stealthed and invisible. That is a minimum of (+40 non-moving +19 modifier +1 die) 60 stealth check, no one sees it.
Surprise round:
I'm not sure if she would go for touch or ranged because touch seems a bad idea due to the increased reach. I'll play it out for both.
Ranged:
Surprise!
Round 1: Witchfire init is a +10, Spiney is a +2. She'll go ahead and fire again, then move to get up in the air if she wasn't already. Same chance to hit, but damage is up 1.5x now. 13.23 more damage. Total damage taken by Spiney: 22.05 and the sickened condition.
Gyr now takes the chance to cast Beast Shape 3 on his poor pet, as was their plan. Probably smarter to just cast fly, but he wants Spiney to get the pounce.
Spiney is now huge (15x15) with a 15' reach, and gets the bonuses of his beast shape. He still can't hit 60' in the air, which is where the witchfire is if she is smart. He readys an action to attack her if she gets close enough, because he isn't sure what else to do.
Round 2:
Gyr casts Fly on his huge friend.
Spiney (being an intelligent animal companion, having flown before, and having ranks in the skill) knows exactly what to do. He feels the magic infuse him and he goes after the witchfire. Unfortunately, her maneuvability is perfect, while his is only good. I assume she was directly above Spiney as well, which means he has to fly at a 45º angle to get up to altitude. He cannot reliably make the Fly check to fly an a higher angle than this, so he'll spend a 2 move actions to fly 60'up and 60'over (120 total travelled, half speed at 45º angle). Still can't reach her.
Round 3
Summoning is a full round, so if she chooses that, nothing happens at this point.
Spiney: Finally, he can act. He charges and pounces. He is at -2 from being sickened, and is effected by witchflame, but otherwise has no penalties. His amulet gives him ghost touch, so he can damage normally.
+18 on each attack (6 bab, 14 str, -2 sickened, +2 charge, -2 Power Attack) he goes full-tilt with the bite, claw, claw, rake talon, rake talon. Average DPR of 94.5, not halved due to ghost touch. He also gets a grab on the bite. 65% chance to hit, CMB is 23 vs witchfire CMD of 31. 65% chance of success on the grab. Overall 42.25% chance of a grapple succeeding. Assuming ghost touch gets around it anyway. Either way, she will lose the summon will-o-wisps spell.
Round 4
Spiney acts again, if she flew away, he re-pounces and finishes her. If she was grappled he maintains and gets 2 rake attacks to finish. If she stayed in melee range, he makes bite&2 claws to finish. If she was smart she kited him, or went invis an ran off.
Companions are mean. Especially when they get buffs. Please critique my play by play and tell me how screwed I should have been. Its much easier to critique than perform (now I know) so I want to say I am open to it. Next up, the Croc.
So if a paladin built for damage has way better defences, does this not show something pretty significant?I hope so. I think the paladin needs comparison to the monk because both have good defences.Although most of these have been built for damage rather than defense.Absolutely.
If that occurs.
LG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +10
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Defense
--------------------
AC 25, touch 12, flat-footed 24 (+12 armor, +1 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection) - AC 27 when smiting, AC26 when Hasted
hp 74 (10d10+10)
Fort +13, Ref +9, Will +12
Immune charm, disease, fear
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee +2 Falchion +20/+15 (2d4+12/15-20/x2) and
. . Power Attack +2 Falchion +20/+12 (2d4+21/15-20/x2) and
. . Power Attack Divine Bond +2 Falchion +22/+14 (2d4+23/15-20/x2) and
. . Power Attack Hasted +2 Falchion +21/+21/+13 (2d4+21/15-20/x2) and
. . Power Attack Hasted Smiting +2 Falchion +24/+24/+16 (2d4+31/15-20/x2) and
. . Power Attack Hasted Smiting Divine Bond +2 Falchion +26/+26/+18 (2d4+33/15-20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +17/+12 (1d3+7/x2) and
. . Masterwork Kukri +18/+13 (1d4+7/18-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +17/+12 (1d3+7/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +7) +12/+7 (1d8+7/x3)
Special Attacks smite evil (4/day)
Spell-Like Abilities Detect Evil (At will)
Paladin Spells Prepared (CL 7):
3 (1/day) Dispel Magic
2 (2/day) Resist Energy, Weapon of Awe (DC 15)
1 (3/day) Restoration, Lesser, Grace, Hero's Defiance
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 24, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 16
Base Atk +10; CMB +17; CMD 29
Feats Furious Focus, Improved Critical (Falchion), Improved Initiative, Power Attack -3/+6, Quick Draw, Weapon Focus (Falchion)
Traits Armor Expert, Militia Veteran (any town or village) (Survival)
Skills Acrobatics -3 (-7 jump), Climb +4, Diplomacy +16, Escape Artist -3, Fly -3, Handle Animal +7, Heal +4, Knowledge (nobility) +4, Knowledge (religion) +4, Perception +10, Ride +1, Sense Motive +13, Spellcraft +4, Stealth -3, Survival +6, Swim +4
Languages Common
SQ aura of courage, aura of good, aura of resolve, divine bonds (weapon [2/day]), lay on hands (5d6) (8/day), mercies (mercy [diseased], mercy [fatigued], mercy [poisoned]), paladin channel positive energy 5d6 (4/day) (dc 18
Other Gear +3 Full plate, +1 Bane (Dragons) Arrows (7), +2 Falchion, Arrows (20), Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +7), Masterwork Kukri, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of giant strength +4, Boots of speed (10 rounds/day), Cloak of resistance +2, Headband of alluring charisma +2, Ring of protection +1, 40 PP, 3 GP, 6 SP, 6 CP
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Special Abilities
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Armor Expert -1 Armor check penalty.
Aura of Courage +4 (10' radius) (Su) You are immune to Fear. Allies within aura gain a morale bonus to saves vs Fear.
Aura of Good (Ex) The paladin has an Aura of Good with power equal to her class level.
Aura of Resolve +4 (10' radius) (Su) You are immune to charm. Allies within aura gain a morale bonus to saves vs charm.
Boots of speed (10 rounds/day) Affected by haste
Detect Evil (At will) (Sp) You can use detect evil at will (as the spell).
Divine Bond (Weapon +2) (10 minutes) (2/day) (Sp) Weapon shines with light and gains enhancement bonuses or chosen properties.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Immunity to Charm You are immune to charm effects.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Fear (Ex) You are immune to all fear effects.
Lay on Hands (5d6) (8/day) (Su) You can heal 5d6 damage, 8/day
Mercy (Diseased) (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also removes disease, as per the remove disease spell at a caster level of your Paladin level.
Mercy (Fatigued) (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also removes the fatigued condition.
Mercy (Poisoned) (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also neutralizes poisons, as per the neutralize poison spell at a caster level of your Paladin level.
Paladin Channel Positive Energy 5d6 (4/day) (DC 18) (Su) Positive energy heals the living and harms the undead; negative has the reverse effect.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick Draw Draw weapon as a free action (or move if hidden weapon). Throw at full rate of attacks.
Smite Evil (4/day) (Su) +3 to hit, +10 to damage, +3 deflection bonus to AC when used.
OK, so with attacks peaking at +26/+26/+18 (2d4+33/15-20/x2) ignoring all DR, and enough smites for one per encounter per day, Dick is very strong offensively (that DPR is 130.91 vs AC24 BTW). Even if not smiting and not using his boots (say against multiple weaker foes) he's turning out +22/+14 (2d4+23/15-20/x2) (DPR 64.48 vs AC24). I don't think there's any doubt he can match pretty much any monk's offensive capacity in melee easily. In addition he has a ranged option with his bow which if combined with smite will convince most aerial attackers to either give it up as a bad deal or else get into melee quickly (hence the Quickdraw). He can use dispel magic for a debuff on top.
On to defences:
His AC of 25 is OK, though not brilliant. Using his boots and smite it's up to 28, though, which is fairly good. His hit points aren't amazing at 74, but with 8x 5d6 lay on hands he has potentially an extra 140 hit points waiting in the wings, so he's really not all that bothered by that (he could get +10 by swapping out Quickdraw for Toughness as well). With hero's defiance a single round's attacks would have to do around 95+ damage to keep him down, starting from fresh.
Saves are at +13/+9/+12 which are pretty good. If he's up against area attacks he has resist energy tucked away to bolster his reflex save.
Immunities: He's immune to disease, charms, and fear. In addition his mercies grant effective immunity to fatigue and poison. He also has a lesser restoration in his spells prepared, just in case.
Mobility: 20' movement isn't great, but he can add +30' from his boots when he has to. With the grace spell he can do a 100' charge once a day that doesn't provoke AoO's. Pretty nifty.
I'd say this paladin matches Aranthos' monk's offence and defence, while having adequate mobility, better ranged effects, and spells into the bargain.
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His AC is only OK. It's much lower than the Dex monk and even lower than my monk with barkskin (which will be on a whole lot more than smite. Not to mention his touch AC...not so good. His saves are fine, but not better. Both are immune to disease and poison, you get charms and fear, but the monk gets improved evasion.
His DPR is about the same as either "Damage" monk when he isn't smiting and they aren't using ki (or ki and boots in my case). You can smite 3 times a day, we can ki/haste/etc...about 10 rounds a day.
You get a couple spells, mercies, etc, the monk gets more skill points (and no ACP), triple your movement, improved evasion, more feats, etc...
So...to me they look fairly comparable, with regards to value. Which is pretty much as it should be.
Tarantula,
The Witchfire's attacks target touch AC. This means Spiney's AC against it is 10, not 28 (Barkskin doesn't affect touch AC). Also, you only stop being flat-footed once you act, and neither Gyr nor Spiney would be able to act during the surprise round, so they only stop being flat-footed and get to do something at 2nd round, after the Witchfire has acted. Oh, and Spiney acts earlier than Gyr, but we can assume it dealays its turn to get buffs.
I'd assume the creature can't go invisible for some reason, though, (maybe the Wizard cast Glitterdust on it). Otherwise, it can simply fire, go invisible, wait for the PCs to run out of buffs and repeat...
Also, you're effectively comparing the Druid vs Rangers/Monks, not just his animal companion. There is nothing wrong with that, but there's a reason we don't usually include full casters in these comparisons...
His AC is only OK. It's much lower than the Dex monk and even lower than my monk with barkskin (which will be on a whole lot more than smite. Not to mention his touch AC...not so good. His saves are fine, but not better. Both are immune to disease and poison, you get charms and fear, but the monk gets improved evasion.
His DPR is about the same as either "Damage" monk when he isn't smiting and they aren't using ki (or ki and boots in my case). You can smite 3 times a day, we can ki/haste/etc...about 10 rounds a day.
Er, check again. Smite is 4 times per day at 10th level, and smite doesn't last one round, it lasts until the target of the smite is destroyed or sundown, whichever comes quicker. So if the encounters are single creatures, I get smite on them all day long, as opposed to ten rounds (and remember, smite ignores DR to boot). Can any of them match this paladin's maximum DPR smiting? What happens if the target AC is higher?
Also, you are comparing damage to the damage monk and AC to the dex monk. Pick one, or the other. I was comparing directly to the damage monk with an unbuffed AC of 22. After all, isn't it the complaint of the monk that he can have damage or AC, but not both? Admitedly some the monks using the agile property get close to it, but they have to suck until they get to that level.
You get a couple spells, mercies, etc, the monk gets more skill points (and no ACP), triple your movement, improved evasion, more feats, etc...
So...to me they look fairly comparable, with regards to value. Which is pretty much as it should be.
What would you rather have, spells of skills? Who has more capacity to assist a party, rather than just themselves?
I'd say the paladin is far ahead. In defensive abilities he's a match to the DPR focussed monk and that swift-action lay-on-hands on himself makes up a lot for his AC compared to the dex monk, the monk has greater mobility (but the paladin, I have to point out, has enough mobility and the ranged attack to force an enemy with little in ranged options to come to him), in abilities that aid the party the paladin is ahead. In utility, the monk has an advantage in skills but the paladin has spells and lay-on-hands. In DPR the paladin wins hands-down.
The worst thing is this was slung together on the fly, without much real thought. All the monk builds that struggle to match it take a lot of work to put together.
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Yes, single target.
And it is skills, spell-like abilities, movement, etc...
Look at the DPR on the Dex monk.
Second, compared to my monk, the Paladin is comparable defensively, but not better (Touch AC).
Don't use flung together as an excuse, remember I didn't even make my build. I just edited feats on someone else's build. If you want to improve the build, feel free, but I didn't see anything that made me think "Wow, that really outshines the monks that have been posted.
Particularly the Dex monk.
Okay, let's se... Dire Croc is a easy fight for most martials... It's big, stupid and has no supernatural abilities. It does have terrain advantage, though... Remember: The Dire Croc is most likely partially submerged or close to a large lake/pond. This could be a problem.
Both Mork and 2HR can easily spot the beast, and even move unnoticed by it, but unless the rest of the party can do it too, they'll have to face the monster.
Since they can spot the Croc before it spots any of them, both Mork and 2HR will have Barkskin (and Longstrider, for 2HR) active before engaging the creature.
Mork is in a pinch. He doesn't have any ranged weapon, so he tries to bait the Dire Croc away from its pond. The only way he can do it, though, is through looking delicious. If the Dire Croc goes after him, he spends 1 Ki to cast Barkskin on himself, if Coc doesn't chase him, though, moves away from its sight, then sneakly approaches it again, this time without being seen.
Mork then casts Scorching Ray on it (average damage: 29,3) from 50ft away, then goes back a 20~30ft, but he makes sure the Croc sees him casting the spell, so it will know who is responsible for its pain. It'll either attack or run away. If it runs away... Awesome, encounter is over.
If it attacks Mork, OTOH, the encounter goes on...
Round 2
Mork delays his turn, he'll act after Croc.
Croc charges Mork. It can only move 40ft, though, even with its 15ft reach, it still can attack Mork.
Mork moves in for an attack, that means he suffers an AoO... That's 24.8 damage, plus Grab (and he'll almost certainly succeed on its Grapple check) and swallow Mork whole. Well... That's bad... -.-'
Mork makes a single attack against the beast stomach. That's 23.3 damage to the beast, it's now at 85.4 hp.
Round 3
Croc doesn't have a target. It'll either go for another party member or return to its lair (which will take at least 1 full round). Let's hope Mork's friend can survive 1~2 rounds without him.
Mork is inside Croc's stomach. That means he takes 17.5 acid damage. His total hp is now 35.7. Mork proceeds to FoB the beast as hard as he can! Its stomach AC is 17. That means Mork deals 69.3 damage to the beast (I'm assuming the stomach is immune to Acid damage, otherwise, this DPR increases to 80.85.1).
Either way, Croc is seriously hurt (only 39.4 hp left, about 28% of its total hp). It's unlikely the other party members can't finish it off, but if that happens, the beast will almost certainly retreat to its lair... Mork takes yet another 17.5 Acid damage (only 18.2 hp left -.-'), but can definetely kill Croc (or knock it unconscious if he's feeling merciful), then free himself from its belly.
Terrain/reach advantage made this battle surprisingly harder than expected, but Mork did succeed... with very few hit points left...
2-Handed Ranger is has a much easier time... He can just use his longbow to kill it. 2HR makes a ranged full attack during the surprise round from as far as he can (DPR 38.12 - 27.6% of Crocs total hp). If that's less than 100ft away, then make a single attack and move away & stealth again. Repeat until it's dead (actualy, you don't even need stealth, it just makes your life a bit easier). With Longstrider (it lasts for 9h!), 2HR can move twice as fast as the beast, so if it couldn't reach 2HR in the first round, it won't be able to do it any time soon...
He can easily defeat the beast without spending any resource other than a few arrows... If it decides to spare the creature's life, just hit it until it's hurt enough to run away or be knocked unconscious in a single round.
My TWF Ranger with Cestus, Unarmed Ranger and MoMS Ranger would have very similar results to 2HR, the only real difference is how many rounds it would take to defeat Croc.
Ok, Witchfire time. Here goes nothing.
Gyr and Spiney are walking along in the swamp for whatever reason they are there. Since the witchfire is waiting in ambush, I'm assuming it is stealthed and invisible. That is a minimum of (+40 non-moving +19 modifier +1 die) 60 stealth check, no one sees it.
Surprise round:
I'm not sure if she would go for touch or ranged because touch seems a bad idea due to the increased reach. I'll play it out for both.Ranged:
Surprise!
** spoiler omitted **Round 2:
** spoiler omitted **...
Tarantula that is a touch AC for the ranged attack. I know the book does not say it, but all incorporeal attacks are touch attacks by their very nature. It is just a typo, that was never errata'd. That is why all the other martials got their butts kicked.
Speaking of which I need to submit it for errata before the next printing.
Tarantula that is a touch AC for the ranged attack. I know the book does not say it, but all incorporeal attacks are touch attacks by their very nature. It is just a typo, that was never errata'd. That is why all the other martials got their butts kicked.
Speaking of which I need to submit it for errata before the next printing.
Ah, in that case, she snipes and moves and kills me too. 27.93 the first round, 41.895 the others.
Surprise: Woah that hurts. 27.93 taken and sickenedRound 1: Woah, that really hurts, 41.895 more damage, 69.825 total.
Druid casts beast shape.
Round 2: Dead.
Tarantula,
The Witchfire's attacks target touch AC. This means Spiney's AC against it is 10, not 28 (Barkskin doesn't affect touch AC). Also, you only stop being flat-footed once you act, and neither Gyr nor Spiney would be able to act during the surprise round, so they only stop being flat-footed and get to do something at 2nd round, after the Witchfire has acted. Oh, and Spiney acts earlier than Gyr, but we can assume it dealays its turn to get buffs.
I'd assume the creature can't go invisible for some reason, though, (maybe the Wizard cast Glitterdust on it). Otherwise, it can simply fire, go invisible, wait for the PCs to run out of buffs and repeat...
Also, you're effectively comparing the Druid vs Rangers/Monks, not just his animal companion. There is nothing wrong with that, but there's a reason we don't usually include full casters in these comparisons...
Barkskin wasn't factored in, no prebuffs <1hr/level were.
I wanted to do Ccompanion+A buff or two vs the monk. The druid has plenty of other things he could do, but isn't. Still loses to the witch though.
I wanted to do Ccompanion+A buff or two vs the monk. The druid has plenty of other things he could do, but isn't. Still loses to the witch though.
Makes sense, although most buffs used on animal companions could also be used on other PCs (especially Monks).
But I think a couple buffs might be fair game, considering Animal Companions have no WBL of their own. It's reasonable to assume that 10min/level buffs will be active in ares the PCs know are dangerous.
We are assuming each encounter happens something like 15~30 minutes after the last one. We can consider our hp is restored as much as we want (usually to full health, but characters with lots of hp, such as Barbarians, might be okay with having less), then we can compare what each character cost to their party and/or herself.
Every spell used to heal you is a spell the Cleric could have made better use of. Every charge of wands of CLW spent on you is gold/magic not spent in any other way.
So far, every build cost their party a resurrection. But that's assuming they are fighting alone, in which case, there is no party to bring them back. -.-'.
I made a token party so we can have an idea of how an average party could help...
I think we should have a "mini-adventure"... Like we are looking for a lost artifact that is inside a ancient temple in the middle of whatever swamp our builds are going through right now.
Makes sense, although most buffs used on animal companions could also be used on other PCs (especially Monks).
But I think a couple buffs might be fair game, considering Animal Companions have no WBL of their own. It's reasonable to assume that 10min/level buffs will be active in ares the PCs know are dangerous.
We are assuming each encounter happens something like 15~30 minutes after the last one. We can consider our hp is restored as much as we want (usually to full health, but characters with lots of hp, such as Barbarians, might be okay with having less), then we can compare what each character cost to their party and/or herself.
Every spell used to heal you is a spell the Cleric could have made better use of. Every charge of wands of CLW spent on you is gold/magic not spent in any other way.
So far, every build cost their party a resurrection. But that's assuming they are fighting alone, in which case, there is no party to bring them back. -.-'.
I made a token party so we can have an idea of how an average party could help...
I think we should have a "mini-adventure"... Like we are looking for a lost artifact that is inside a ancient temple in the middle of whatever swamp our builds are going through right now.
The benefit of animal companions? He dies and gives you 3 rounds to RUN AWAY with. They are free to get a new one (takes 24 hours).
I think the witchfire is designed for the PCs to hear about, investigate, prepare, and go in wizard blazing. Definitely a martial killer.
I like the idea of a mini-adventure. I'm also planning to stat out a medium sized companion (to avoid issues of dungeons/smaller areas) and see how the damage compares.
The benefit of animal companions? He dies and gives you 3 rounds to RUN AWAY with. They are free to get a new one (takes 24 hours).
Yeah, but then you lost a Class Feature for one whole day... And whatever gear it had equipped may be lost forever, digested/destroyed/stolen by whatever killed the critter.
I think the witchfire is designed for the PCs to hear about, investigate, prepare, and go in wizard blazing. Definitely a martial killer.
Yup, a tough fight for any martial or unprepared caster.
I like the idea of a mini-adventure. I'm also planning to stat out a medium sized companion (to avoid issues of dungeons/smaller areas) and see how the damage compares.
A Large creature is not too problematic, IME. It's only a real issue if it grows bigger than that.
Oh, yeah, true about the equipment... but also a possibility of the team coming back the next day prepared to reclaim it?
I agree, large isn't too bad. Its when you have huge that sizes are an issue. Medium can get animal growth to large and still be usable inside. Large can't go huge and still be of a lot of use.
Our heroes kill the croc and move on. They come across what appears to be an abandoned small town. However they are not alone. It seems they have angered someone, and a rather nasty outside has been sent to deal with them.
We will assume the buildings are large enough to use as cover for this monster.
Bebilith CR 10
XP 9,600
CE Huge outsider (chaotic, evil, extraplanar)
Init +5; Senses darkvision 60 ft., scent; Perception +16
DEFENSE
AC 22, touch 9, flat-footed 21 (+1 Dex, +13 natural, –2 size)
hp 150 (12d10+84)
Fort +15, Ref +11, Will +7
DR 10/good
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft., climb 20 ft.
Melee bite +19 (2d6+9 plus rot) and 2 claws +19 (2d4+9/19–20)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Special Attacks dismantle armor, penetrating strike, web (+11 ranged, DC 23, 12 hp)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 12th)
At will—plane shift (bebilith only)
STATISTICS
Str 28, Dex 12, Con 24, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 13
Base Atk +12; CMB +23; CMD 34 (46 vs. trip)
Feats
Cleave, Improved Critical (claws), Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack
Skills
Acrobatics +16, Climb +32, Perception +16, Sense Motive +16, Stealth +16, Survival +16; Racial Modifiers +8 Stealth
Languages Abyssal (cannot speak); telepathy 100 ft.
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Dismantle Armor (Ex)
If a bebilith hits a foe with both claw attacks, it can attempt to peel away the target's armor and shield as a free action by making a CMB check. If the bebilith is successful, the target's armor and shield are torn from his body and dismantled, falling to the ground. Armor subjected to this attack loses half its hit points and gains the broken condition if the target fails a DC 25 Reflex save. The save DC is Strength-based.
Penetrating Strike (Su)
A bebilith's natural weapons are treated as chaotic and magical for the purposes of penetrating damage reduction. Against creatures with the demon type, its natural weapons are also treated as cold iron and good.
Rot (Su)
A bebilith's bite causes a horrible withering and weakening of the flesh, resulting in a hideous melting and foul rotting effect. This catastrophic withering begins on the round the creature is bitten and continues for another 4 rounds thereafter, for 5 rounds of withering in all. Each round the rot persists, the target must succeed on a DC 23 Fortitude save or take 2 points of Constitution damage. If the target makes two consecutive saving throws in a row, the effect is cured. Heal can also halt the rot effect. The save DC is Constitution-based.
It has in init of +5, and a perception and stealth of +16. It also has DR 10/good.
Oh, BTW, guys, I have an idea for "calculating" how SoL spells effect each encounter.
We see the chance each build has of making a save. Divide it by 2. Then take the number we found and divide again by 5 (because each die roll is a 5% chance). That's the number of rounds each character can fight without failing that save, but Monk suffers the full effects at 9th round.
e.g.:
Let's say Monk has an 80% chance to a save against Dominate Person. 80/2 = 40, and 40/5= 8. That Monk can fight 8 rounds without being dominated.
Now, a imagine a Fighter who has a 30% of making that same save. 30/2 = 15, and 15/5 = 3. That Fighter can fight only 3 rounds without being dominated.
To make it easier, just divide your chance of making the save by 10.
This gives a solid advantage to Characters with good saves, as they have more time to kill their target, as it should be. A good initiative may give you an extra round (if the Fighter can act before the caster in the 9th round, he may kill the caster before being dominated). For blasting spells/effects, we should simply keep using average damage, though, as they usually deal damage anyway.
I'm not sure how good or precise is this system... I didn't put much thought into it, but it seems okay to me.
Our heroes kill the croc and move on. They come across what appears to be an abandoned small town. However they are not alone. It seems they have angered someone, and a rather nasty outside has been sent to deal with them.
We will assume the buildings are large enough to use as cover for this monster.
** spoiler omitted **...
Question:
Is it already there, guarding the place? Or was it summoned just as the heroes set foot on the town, appearing right in front of them?
Can I assume PCs can use stealth to approach it (let's say... get as close as 30ft away from it, since getting into melee range without being seen is nearly impossible without invisibility)? Most characters would be suspicious of abandoned towns in the middle of the swamp, and any sneaky character with a decent stealth score and half a brain would probably be smart enough to scout ahead or at least walk as quietly as possible.
Ok, time for the dire croc. His stealth beats the perception of Spiney (18vs11). The croc almost certainly sees Spiney. I’ll give benefit of the doubt, and Spiney wanders over to get a drink of water. (Boy, with Int 3 you think he’d know better!)
Surprise!
Round 1:
Croc gets to go first again, most likely going for swallow whole, which will succeed. Spiney takes 15.275(bite damage without a chance for crit).
Gyr wants to do something useful, but now Spiney is inside the croc, so no Line of Effect and he can’t reach Spiney for a touch spell, he picks his nose or something.
Spiney makes a full attack, because, what else is he gonna do. AC of the inside of croc is 16. No buffs means he just has his bite +15(1d8+13+4PA+1MF) and 2 claws +15(1d6+13+4PA+1MF) for attacks. 13HP will cut himself out. DPR is 65.33625. He is cut out.[spoiler]
Round 2:[spoiler]
Croc didn’t like that. Stupid dinosaurs cutting their way out. He will probably go for deathroll. This does another 17.8 average to Spiney, and if it hits, will trip him.
Gyr finally can cast Beast Shape 3 on Spiney, lucky him.
Spiney, now Huge but prone, can make a full attack. Bite and 2 claws at -4 for prone gives him average DPR of 49.8225. Croc has now taken a total of 115.15875. This is over 80% of his hp, and he would probably withdraw at this point.
Round 3:
Total damage to Spiney: 49.875
Alternate: If the party spots the croc before it attacks, Gyr could use wild empathy, or even just calm animals on the croc. I am pointing this out to show the side-benefits of picking a druid over a monk, as the Companion can pretty much replace the monk in combat, but the druid brings more outside of combat.
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I think the witchfire is designed for the PCs to hear about, investigate, prepare, and go in wizard blazing. Definitely a martial killer.Yup, a tough fight for any martial or unprepared caster.
It is a hard solo, but not hard for a 4 person party. Each time it attacks, you then have a full round of attacks on it, in trade for one attack that isn't going to drop an equal level enemy, or even put them at real risk.
It is a hard solo, but not hard for a 4 person party. Each time it attacks, you then have a full round of attacks on it, in trade for one attack that isn't going to drop an equal level enemy, or even put them at real risk.
If it is played smart, it would just hover 50' off the ground, and drop ranged attacks on players. Probably starting with the ones who can cast spells (since they will do full damage to it). Hows the average wizard fair against the surprise round ranged touch?
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It is a hard solo, but not hard for a 4 person party. Each time it attacks, you then have a full round of attacks on it, in trade for one attack that isn't going to drop an equal level enemy, or even put them at real risk.If it is played smart, it would just hover 50' off the ground, and drop ranged attacks on players. Probably starting with the ones who can cast spells (since they will do full damage to it). Hows the average wizard fair against the surprise round ranged touch?
But as soon as it does that, it appears and is vulnerable for a full round until it can cast invisibility again.. It only has one attack a round. Yes it does 8d6, but that is only average 28 damage.
So it attacks, hurts someone, then the whole party unloads on it for a round.
Now I want to take lemmy's sample party through a witchfire encounter. See how they do. Way too many decisions for me to do, might belong in its own thread.
It is a hard solo, but not hard for a 4 person party. Each time it attacks, you then have a full round of attacks on it, in trade for one attack that isn't going to drop an equal level enemy, or even put them at real risk.
Sure, but we're not comparing different 4-person parties. That makes the Witchfire considerably powerful.
I wonder how hard the Bebilith will be... I think I'll post the encounter simulation later...
Since the paladin was mentioned, I thought I'd do the thought-experiment and make a paladin monk. As expected the defenses are very formidable, and damage is passable. The build is not intended to be used for the Proving Grounds:
str 8
dex 24 = 16 + 2 racial + 2 levels + 4 item
con 12
int 10
wis 16 = 14 + 2 item
cha 16 = 14 + 2 item
traits -
level 1 - pala 1 - weapon focus (scimitar), weapon finesse
level 2 - pala 2 -
level 3 - pala 3 - dervish dance
level 4 - pala 4 -
level 5 - monk 1 - dodge (bonus), crusader's flurry
level 6 - monk 2 - combat reflexes (bonus)
level 7 - monk 3 - crane style
level 8 - monk 4 -
level 9 - monk 5 - crane wing
level 0 - monk 6 - deflect arrows (bonus)
equipment:
+1 keen mithril scimitar (9000)
+4 dex belt (16000)
+2 headband for cha and wis (10000)
+1 ring of deflect (2000)
+2 cloak of resistance (4000)
jingasa (5000)
dusty rose prism (5000)
wayfinder (500)
cracked pale green prism (4000)
featherstep slippers (2000)
eyes of the eagle (2500)
potion of mage armor x20 (50 each, 1000)
various potions for 1000gp
HP 80
AC 37 touch 31 flat 24 CMD 37
Fort 15 Ref 18 Will 17
primary skills: acrobatics 20(10), perception 21(10), perform (dance) 8(2)
scimitar flurry (crane) +16/+16/+11/+11 1d6+9 15-20/x2
smiting scimitar flurry (crane) +19/+19/+14/+14 1d6+13 15-20/x2
special smite 2/day; ki 6/day; Stunning Fist DC 16
scimitar flurry (crane) 2 * 0.65 * 12.5 * 1.3 + 2 * 0.4 * 12.5 * 1.3 = 34.1
ki attack scimitar flurry (crane) 3 * 0.65 * 12.5 * 1.3 + 2 * 0.4 * 12.5 * 1.3 = 44.7
smiting scimitar flurry (crane) 2 * 0.8 * 16.5 * 1.3 + 2 * 0.55 * 16.5 * 1.3 = 57.9
ki attack smiting scimitar flurry (crane) 3 * 0.8 * 16.5 * 1.3 + 2 * 0.55 * 16.5 * 1.3 = 75.1
scimitar flurry 2 * 0.75 * 12.5 * 1.3 + 2 * 0.5 * 12.5 * 1.3 = 40.6
ki attack scimitar flurry 3 * 0.75 * 12.5 * 1.3 + 2 * 0.5 * 12.5 * 1.3 = 52.8
smiting scimitar flurry 2 * 0.9 * 16.5 * 1.3 + 2 * 0.65 * 16.5 * 1.3 = 66.5
ki attack smiting scimitar flurry 3 * 0.9 * 16.5 * 1.3 + 2 * 0.65 * 16.5 * 1.3 = 85.8
With more aggressive archetyping, more options come available - since both paladin and monk give disease immunity, that might as well be archetyped away - Ki Mystic may be a good option, as it also gives a good boost to the ki pool.
Something else to consider: if Weapon Adept's "way of the weapon master" is read to allow the scimitar as focus and specialization weapon, then the levels can be re-ordered such that Crane Riposte is finished before level 10; and weapon specialization grants another +2 to all attacks. Most will probably not read it like that.
Jakiro senses the bebilith before the monster can sense him. He immediately begins to stealth in cautiously, switching to invisibility to close the final distance, then rushes in with a charge when opportunity presents itself. Jakiro doesn't bypass DR.
Surprise Round
Jakiro charge 0.85 * 8.5 * 1.1 = 7.95
Round 1
Jakiro holds the initiative and flurries, following up with a ki-point for AC
Flurry 2 * 0.8 * 8.5 * 1.1 + 2 * 0.55 * 8.5 * 1.1 = 25.25
Furious the bebilith returns the favor, unloading its bite and claws on Jakiro
Attack 0.05 * 15 * 1.05 + 2 * 0.05 * 14 * 1.1 = 2.33
Rot 0.05 * 0.6 * 2 = 0.06 Con damage
Snake Fang 3 * 0.95 * 0.8 * 8.5 * 1.1 = 21.32
Round 2
Jakiro keeps pressing the bebilith, ki to dodge
Flurry 2 * 0.8 * 8.5 * 1.1 + 2 * 0.55 * 8.5 * 1.1 = 25.25 (total of 79.77 by now)
The bebilith is somewhat worried at this stage, and attempts to pick up its superior reach - first it webs Jakiro then backs into 15ft reach range; but Jakiro's touch AC of 31 is too much for the web to connect with and instead it just creates a plotch of difficult terrain around Jakiro's feet. As the monster moves away it tries to tumble, but Jakiro smashes with an 85% chance to ignore the tumble.
AOO vs bebilith 0.85 * 0.8 * 8.5 * 1.1 = 6.36 (total of 86.13)
Round 3
Jakiro has no difficulty following the bebilith, in spite of the sticky ground; ki to dodge. He tumbles and has a 60% chance of not provoking.
AOO vs Jakiro 0.6 * 0.05 * 15 * 1.05 = 0.47 (total of 2.8)
Rot 0.6 * 0.05 * 0.6 * 2 = 0.10 Con damage
Jakiro attacks 0.75 * 8.5 * 1.1 = 7.01 (total of 93.14)
Confounded by this human, the bebilith decides that if it has almost no chance to hit - it might as well hit as hard as it can, it uses Power Attack on its full attack.
Attack 0.05 * 21 * 1.05 + 2 * 0.05 * 20 * 1.1 = 3.30 (total of 6.1)
Rot 0.05 * 0.6 * 2 = 0.06 Con damage (total of 0.16)
Snake Fang 3 * 0.95 * 0.8 * 8.5 * 1.1 = 21.32 (total of 114.46)
Round 4
Jakiro keeps pressing the bebilith, ki to dodge
Flurry 2 * 0.8 * 8.5 * 1.1 + 2 * 0.55 * 8.5 * 1.1 = 25.25 (total of 139.71 by now)
Very nearly dead, the bebilith decides to flee - 5ft step and plane shifting away.
SADness really makes Monks powerful... I think that's the reason Kenshiro is so badass...
What I find interesting about snake fang, is that all of their damage comes from being attacked, so the best strategy is to kill everyone else first, then figure out how to hit without being hit.
Also, why isn't the Bebilith climbing on those buildings or its webs to get up off the ground and out of easy full-attack range? It does have Int 11 afterall.
It comes down to the same thing: in Round 2 to Round 3 the Bebilith tries to make distance between itself and Jakiro follows. The numbers get smaller because less attacks go back and forth, but the Bebilith is still playing a losing game. If the monster goes out of reach by going up, then Jakiro needs to follow using a potion of fly - but it still doesn't change the per-round numbers.
I actually considered switching it's tactic to overrun or trip or grapple; but in my experiments the numbers favored her even less, so I switched to Power Attack which at least increases DPR a little.
Yes, single target.
And it is skills, spell-like abilities, movement, etc...
Look at the DPR on the Dex monk.
Can you link that? And does it beat 130 DPR? Oh, and I forgot to factor in weapon of awe as well, and assumed the +2 divine bond was just +2 enhancement...
Second, compared to my monk, the Paladin is comparable defensively, but not better (Touch AC).
How was your monk's flat-footed AC?
Don't use flung together as an excuse, remember I didn't even make my build. I just edited feats on someone else's build. If you want to improve the build, feel free, but I didn't see anything that made me think "Wow, that really outshines the monks that have been posted.
Particularly the Dex monk.
I'll reserve judgement until I see your Dex monk. And also remember you have to survive to 10th level. The problem I had playing a dex monk in a real game was the lack of an AoMF, anywhere to buy one (or the money to do so), and no time to make one. Without an agile AoMF the dex monk is a lame duck.
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It is a hard solo, but not hard for a 4 person party. Each time it attacks, you then have a full round of attacks on it, in trade for one attack that isn't going to drop an equal level enemy, or even put them at real risk.Sure, but we're not comparing different 4-person parties. That makes the Witchfire considerably powerful.
I wonder how hard the Bebilith will be... I think I'll post the encounter simulation later...
Agree 100%
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Yes, single target.
And it is skills, spell-like abilities, movement, etc...
Look at the DPR on the Dex monk.
Can you link that? And does it beat 130 DPR? Oh, and I forgot to factor in weapon of awe as well, and assumed the +2 divine bond was just +2 enhancement...
Second, compared to my monk, the Paladin is comparable defensively, but not better (Touch AC).How was your monk's flat-footed AC?
I'll reserve judgement until I see your Dex monk. And also remember you have to survive to 10th level. The problem I had playing a dex monk in a real game was the lack of an AoMF, anywhere to buy one (or the money to do so), and no time to make one. Without an agile AoMF the dex monk is a lame duck.Don't use flung together as an excuse, remember I didn't even make my build. I just edited feats on someone else's build. If you want to improve the build, feel free, but I didn't see anything that made me think "Wow, that really outshines the monks that have been posted.
Particularly the Dex monk.
Flatfooted AC is fine, as the wisdom and monk still apply.
Again, the Paladin you posted is nice, against a single evil target per encounter (and even pretty good against non-evil). It will do great in this format against evil and "struggle" against non-evil. It is also slow, has a very heavy ACP on a skill starved class.
I thought the gap was significantly reduced with the haste and AoMF rulings. These threads are making me think it may be gone at this point.
Oh, BTW, guys, I have an idea for "calculating" how SoL spells effect each encounter.
We see the chance each build has of making a save. Divide it by 2. Then take the number we found and divide again by 5 (because each die roll is a 5% chance). That's the number of rounds each character can fight without failing that save, but Monk suffers the full effects at 9th round.
e.g.:
Let's say Monk has an 80% chance to a save against Dominate Person. 80/2 = 40, and 40/5= 8. That Monk can fight 8 rounds without being dominated.Now, a imagine a Fighter who has a 30% of making that same save. 30/2 = 15, and 15/5 = 3. That Fighter can fight only 3 rounds without being dominated.
To make it easier, just divide your chance of making the save by 10.
This gives a solid advantage to Characters with good saves, as they have more time to kill their target, as it should be. A good initiative may give you an extra round (if the Fighter can act before the caster in the 9th round, he may kill the caster before being dominated). For blasting spells/effects, we should simply keep using average damage, though, as they usually deal damage anyway.
I'm not sure how good or precise is this system... I didn't put much thought into it, but it seems okay to me.
Well once you know the percentage it is easier to figure out. As an example someone with an 80% chance to succeed will make it 4/5 times so assume the 5th round is the failing round.
Our heroes kill the croc and move on. They come across what appears to be an abandoned small town. However they are not alone. It seems they have angered someone, and a rather nasty outside has been sent to deal with them.
We will assume the buildings are large enough to use as cover for this monster.
** spoiler omitted **...
Question:
Is it already there, guarding the place? Or was it summoned just as the heroes set foot on the town, appearing right in front of them?
Can I assume PCs can use stealth to approach it (let's say... get as close as 30ft away from it, since getting into melee range without being seen is nearly impossible without invisibility)? Most characters would be suspicious of abandoned towns in the middle of the swamp, and any sneaky character with a decent stealth score and half a brain would probably be smart enough to scout ahead or at least walk as quietly as possible.
The town is beyond the swamp, and whoever called it teleported it there since that is the most likely path the PC's would take so it was waiting for them.
I basically just needed a reason for it to use stealth, and to keep the psuedo adventure going so I used that to tie it in.
PS: I would have been more active yesterday, but I had internet issues. I will run my ranger against the Bebilith today, and I might get invurlnable rager version of my barbarian up also. It is the same barbarian actually, just with the archetype subbed in.
I actually considered switching it's tactic to overrun or trip or grapple; but in my experiments the numbers favored her even less, so I switched to Power Attack which at least increases DPR a little.Actually, i am surprised to see that there is not a grapple monk in this mix. Maybe it's just Dude's restriction about archetypes. But it seems like the "i grapple it; i grapple it again" guy would be very successful in this kind of artificial one-on-one type of thing at level 10.
(Incidentally, I hope that the artificial one-on-one thing is not my fault -- i do think that a better thing would be to do "the [monk/ranger/whatever] and 3 iconics vs each encounter", and maybe make some of the encounters be a BBEG and some be a pair of medium BEGs, and some be a bunch of little BEGs, some be a series of X closely-following-each-other encounters, etc.)
Level 10 is where grapple starts to not work so well. It would be hard to grapple that Bebilith for example.
Our heroes kill the croc and move on. They come across what appears to be an abandoned small town. However they are not alone. It seems they have angered someone, and a rather nasty outside has been sent to deal with them.
We will assume the buildings are large enough to use as cover for this monster.
** spoiler omitted **...
First off link to my ranger build just so I can find it again.
The Bebelith would be spotted by the ranger and the animal companion, and they both have a high enough stealth to sneak up on the Bebelith. The ranger does not have knowledge planes, but if the Bebilith is on a building he knows enough to attack it from range, if he has to fight it, and since it looks like a giant spider avoiding a web would make sense.
The ranger would try to get animal companion in a ready to flank position.
The ranger would get 7.84 DPR after DR comes into play in the surprise round.
The ranger would want to try to do as much damage as possible before entering melee with the "giant spider" so he would have shot it from about 100 feet away.
The Bebelith wins initiative and as a full round actions runs up to the ranger. The ranger does not have quick draw, but he can still drop the bow as a free action, and pull his sawtooth sabres, and attacks.
The animal companion comes in next and takes an AoO. The animal companion takes 21.32 with a power attack while trying to flank
With a 70% chance to hit, and a 75 percent chance of Rot taking affect there is a 52.5 percent chance of the animal being in trouble. 1.05 rot con damage.
The companion lands 5.49 points of damage after the DPR is accounted for from the single attack.
Now it is the Bebiliths turn. He does 47.17 points of damage
With a 70% chance to hit, and a .6 percent chance of Rot taking affect there is a 42 percent chance of the animal being in trouble. .84 rot con damage.
Having taken 5.5 out of 150 the Bebilith is still in decent condition.
The ranger gets to full attack now. 49 ish DPR. If haste was in play it would be just around 65.
If he could bypass the DR he would do 89.3. With haste it would go up to
about 106.
The animal companion with no buffs has the same DPR because the 1d3 claw attacks can't bypass the DR.
So with reliable buffs or time to bless his weapons with oil the TWF ranger has a change to kill the monster or run it off. Otherwise he loses.
Ok, Witchfire time. Here goes nothing.
Gyr and Spiney are walking along in the swamp for whatever reason they are there. Since the witchfire is waiting in ambush, I'm assuming it is stealthed and invisible. That is a minimum of (+40 non-moving +19 modifier +1 die) 60 stealth check, no one sees it.
Surprise round:
I'm not sure if she would go for touch or ranged because touch seems a bad idea due to the increased reach. I'll play it out for both.Ranged:
Surprise!
** spoiler omitted **Round 2:
** spoiler omitted **...
You can't grapple the witchfire. It is incorporeal.
With the witchfire being in a swamp it would use a ranged attack and try to get into a position that was not able to be charged. That is why the barbarian failed against it.
Jakiro senses the bebilith before the monster can sense him. He immediately begins to stealth in cautiously, switching to invisibility to close the final distance, then rushes in with a charge when opportunity presents itself. Jakiro doesn't bypass DR.
Surprise Round
Jakiro charge 0.85 * 8.5 * 1.1 = 7.95Round 1
Jakiro holds the initiative and flurries, following up with a ki-point for AC
Flurry 2 * 0.8 * 8.5 * 1.1 + 2 * 0.55 * 8.5 * 1.1 = 25.25Furious the bebilith returns the favor, unloading its bite and claws on Jakiro
Attack 0.05 * 15 * 1.05 + 2 * 0.05 * 14 * 1.1 = 2.33
Rot 0.05 * 0.6 * 2 = 0.06 Con damage
Snake Fang 3 * 0.95 * 0.8 * 8.5 * 1.1 = 21.32Round 2
Jakiro keeps pressing the bebilith, ki to dodge
Flurry 2 * 0.8 * 8.5 * 1.1 + 2 * 0.55 * 8.5 * 1.1 = 25.25 (total of 79.77 by now)The bebilith is somewhat worried at this stage, and attempts to pick up its superior reach - first it webs Jakiro then backs into 15ft reach range; but Jakiro's touch AC of 31 is too much for the web to connect with and instead it just creates a plotch of difficult terrain around Jakiro's feet. As the monster moves away it tries to tumble, but Jakiro smashes with an 85% chance to ignore the tumble.
AOO vs bebilith 0.85 * 0.8 * 8.5 * 1.1 = 6.36 (total of 86.13)
Round 3
Jakiro has no difficulty following the bebilith, in spite of the sticky ground; ki to dodge. He tumbles and has a 60% chance of not provoking.AOO vs Jakiro 0.6 * 0.05 * 15 * 1.05 = 0.47 (total of 2.8)
Rot 0.6 * 0.05 * 0.6 * 2 = 0.10 Con damageJakiro attacks 0.75 * 8.5 * 1.1 = 7.01 (total of 93.14)
Confounded by this human, the bebilith decides that if it has almost no chance to hit - it might as well hit as hard as it can, it uses Power Attack on its full attack.
Attack 0.05 * 21 * 1.05 + 2 * 0.05 * 20 * 1.1 = 3.30 (total of 6.1)
Rot 0.05 * 0.6 * 2 = 0.06 Con damage (total of 0.16)
Snake Fang 3 * 0.95 * 0.8 * 8.5 * 1.1 = 21.32 (total of 114.46)Round 4
Jakiro keeps pressing...
Is this the paladin-monk?
@wraithstrike: no Jakiro is the Dex monk I posted on page 1. I'm not going to run the paladin-monk in the Proving Grounds, it was just a thought experiment so it's not fully thought-through.
Well once you know the percentage it is easier to figure out. As an example someone with an 80% chance to succeed will make it 4/5 times so assume the 5th round is the failing round.
That also assumes that the monster is spending 5 turns using dominate (and not much else). If it doesn't have at-will dominate it may be hard to accept.
Ok, Witchfire time. Here goes nothing.
Gyr and Spiney are walking along in the swamp for whatever reason they are there. Since the witchfire is waiting in ambush, I'm assuming it is stealthed and invisible. That is a minimum of (+40 non-moving +19 modifier +1 die) 60 stealth check, no one sees it.
Surprise round:
I'm not sure if she would go for touch or ranged because touch seems a bad idea due to the increased reach. I'll play it out for both.Ranged:
Surprise!
** spoiler omitted **Round 2:
** spoiler omitted **...You can't grapple the witchfire. It is incorporeal.
With the witchfire being in a swamp it would use a ranged attack and try to get into a position that was not able to be charged. That is why the barbarian failed against it.
I addressed both those. I assumed ranged it would use, since that's the smartest option. It wins.
The companion does have an amulet of ghost touch. Like I said, "might" allow grappling. Since the teeth/fangs are able to fully effect it, and are what is being used to grapple it. Subject to GM rule. Either way, with the ranged attack being touch (due to incorporeal) it beat all of us.
@wraithstrike: no Jakiro is the Dex monk I posted on page 1. I'm not going to run the paladin-monk in the Proving Grounds, it was just a thought experiment so it's not fully thought-through.
Well once you know the percentage it is easier to figure out. As an example someone with an 80% chance to succeed will make it 4/5 times so assume the 5th round is the failing round.That also assumes that the monster is spending 5 turns using dominate (and not much else). If it doesn't have at-will dominate it may be hard to accept.
True so you go by the number of times the monster does use the ability for better accuracy.
Your numbers for rot seem to be off also.
The monster needs a 16 to hit you so it has a .2 chance for that. However if it does the Rot ability has a 65% chance to succeed. That puts us at .13 x 2(con damage)=.26 con damage a round.
The monster still gets his butt kicked I think. My invurnable rager should be able to take him also as soon as I stop being lazy. So far, assuming I am right, only archetypes are winning this.
Ok, Witchfire time. Here goes nothing.
Gyr and Spiney are walking along in the swamp for whatever reason they are there. Since the witchfire is waiting in ambush, I'm assuming it is stealthed and invisible. That is a minimum of (+40 non-moving +19 modifier +1 die) 60 stealth check, no one sees it.
Surprise round:
I'm not sure if she would go for touch or ranged because touch seems a bad idea due to the increased reach. I'll play it out for both.Ranged:
Surprise!
** spoiler omitted **Round 2:
** spoiler omitted **...You can't grapple the witchfire. It is incorporeal.
With the witchfire being in a swamp it would use a ranged attack and try to get into a position that was not able to be charged. That is why the barbarian failed against it.
I addressed both those. I assumed ranged it would use, since that's the smartest option. It wins.
The companion does have an amulet of ghost touch. Like I said, "might" allow grappling. Since the teeth/fangs are able to fully effect it, and are what is being used to grapple it. Subject to GM rule. Either way, with the ranged attack being touch (due to incorporeal) it beat all of us.
I missed that. I would allows for ghost touch to work, even if it is a GM call in that case.
We are not using archtypes in this competition. Additionally I don't think you are account for the rot damage from the bite. Dunno what bruno's fort save is, doesn't look like he is fully statted. What can bruno do if the bebilith stays in its web and attacks with its superior reach? You also did not account for its bite and 2 claws it looks like.
Level 10 is where grapple starts to not work so well. It would be hard to grapple that Bebilith for example.I don't know how true that is. For instance, if I use Bruno's two guys from here (level 9) against the Bebilith:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pp29?How-Would-You-Build-A-Deadly-Grappler#7I get this:
Stats after 1000 bouts (avg duration: 3.513 rounds): monk-bruno-9 won 894, with an average of 50.8881 hp remaining; bebilith won 106, with an average of 121.745 hp remaining.
** spoiler omitted **Stats after 1000 bouts (avg duration: 3.084 rounds): lorewarden-bruno-9 won 999, with an average of 57.3153 hp remaining; bebilith won 1, with an average of 150 hp remaining.
** spoiler omitted **...
That is nice, but we use average die rolls to see what would normally happen and to not depend on luck.
The lore warden you linked to also has no AC that I can see, and I don't even see the monk build. I can give a build credit that I can't see all the stats for. He might get ambushed by the bebilith for all we know.
Flatfooted AC is fine, as the wisdom and monk still apply.
Figures? The monk of yours I can find is the dwarf monk, with AC22, which I have beat. Lorewarden's dex monk is up at AC35, but this monk has two MAJOR problems: suriving until he gets an agile AoMF, and relying on drinking potions like a fish ahead of any encounter. One greater dispel and this monk is knocked way down on AC. It's a nice design, but not a practicable one.
Again, the Paladin you posted is nice, against a single evil target per encounter (and even pretty good against non-evil).
He can use divine bond, weapon of awe, and his boots of speed to be effective enough against multiple non-evil foes, the paladin's only "weakness".
It will do great in this format against evil and "struggle" against non-evil. It is also slow, has a very heavy ACP on a skill starved class.
50' movement isn't slow. This guy is not relying on the party wizard to cast haste he can pull 10 rounds a day out of his boots, which is as many uses as a monk this level get's ki.
Skill starved? Sure. But not spell-starved, and spells do more than skills.
I thought the gap was significantly reduced with the haste and AoMF rulings. These threads are making me think it may be gone at this point.
It's not.
Your dwarf monk's DPR vs AC24, with haste & ki, I make at 94.6. That and a way lower AC, worse saves, fewer immunities...you're on a loser. Lorewarden's tricked-out Dex monk is cranking out the same hits, inflicting 85.8 DPR. He has better AC by a long way, but most of that AC is dependent on buffs easily blown away. Take them off and he's on 27AC, 31 at max (using ki) against the max AC of the paladin at AC28 vs what he's smiting. Add in the paladin's self-healing to the equation and the paladin is ahead on defences AND on offences, and with spells could well be a match on versatility.
Now if we crank up the enemy's AC to 28 (say a dragon with a single buff, not unreasonable in a boss-fight) and look at the DPR stats we get:
Paladin:
Normal Power Attack: 30.42 With haste, smite, & divine bond: 116.09
Dwarf monk:
Normal full attack: 35.475 With haste & ki: 66.22
Lorewarden's Monk:
Normal full attack: 30.25 With haste & ki: 56.98
...and these assume a DR the monk can get through. If there is DR 10/good (conceivable at this level), the monk's DPR falls well below "annoyance" level.
I'm just not seeing any competition here. Sure the dex monk can be unhitable (until somebody hits him with a dispel), but his offensive power is much reduced as a result, and it's a build at the extreme edge of what can be done requiring a lot of knowledge of the system and hinging on some hard-to-find equipment.
What's letting the monk down is his poor attack bonus; +18 vs +26 is no contest. I'm not saying the monk should be doing the same DPR as the paladin, but I am saying that either the dwarf monk should be able to accrue a much better AC, or the Dex monk should require a lot less tricking out to get to where he is. There is your issue with the monk.
@wraithstrike: no Jakiro is the Dex monk I posted on page 1. I'm not going to run the paladin-monk in the Proving Grounds, it was just a thought experiment so it's not fully thought-through.
Well once you know the percentage it is easier to figure out. As an example someone with an 80% chance to succeed will make it 4/5 times so assume the 5th round is the failing round.That also assumes that the monster is spending 5 turns using dominate (and not much else). If it doesn't have at-will dominate it may be hard to accept.
True so you go by the number of times the monster does use the ability for better accuracy.
Your numbers for rot seem to be off also.
The monster needs a 16 to hit you so it has a .2 chance for that. However if it does the Rot ability has a 65% chance to succeed. That puts us at .13 x 2(con damage)=.26 con damage a round.
The monster still gets his butt kicked I think. My invurnable rager should be able to take him also as soon as I stop being lazy. So far, assuming I am right, only archetypes are winning this.
Ah - the monster needs a 20 to hit (as specified, Jakiro uses ki dodge), hence the smaller Rot damage.
So far, assuming I am right, only archetypes are winning this.
If you remove the qinggong from Jakiro, then the only change is the +4 natural AC goes away: you end up with exactly the scenario you described with needing a 16 to hit. And as you said, the bebilith still gets its butt kicked that way. That would be core monk then.