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As a purely theoretical character build, can a Elf take both Spire Defender and Spell Dancer? I only ask because the Spire Defender still "has" the ability to ignore ASF, yada-yada if gained another way (e.g. 1 level of Fighter) and the Spell Dancer has Dance of Avoidance for Medium and Heavy. All the other replaced items have no conflicts.
And the second part would be, would they thematically make sense if able to stack anyway? how quick and unarmored can a person really be? This definitely is RAI but maybe not worth it.
This replaces the magus’s normal armor proficiencies.
This ability replaces the medium armor class feature.
This ability replaces the heavy armor class feature.
What if said Spire Defender takes medium/heavy armor proficiency as feats before 7th/13th level?
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Personally, I'd say they still stack.
The Spire Defender says "if they become proficient in (light/medium/heavy) armor, he automatically gains the magus's ability to ignore arcane spell failure... ect."
Which means the Medium Armor class feature is still there. Just unused. Which, by the way, the Medium Armor Class Feature is *not* the same as Medium Armor Proficiency.
The Spire Defender gives up initial armor proficiencies, but still has the Medium and Heavy armor class features. The Spell Dancer replaces the Medium and Heavy armor class features, so then if a Spire Defender ever gained armor proficiency they wouldn't gain they armor class features.
It makes sense in me head, its just hard to me to put on "paper," ha!
I hope this helps.
By RAW, they would stack because Spire Defender does not replace the Medium Armor and Heavy Armor abilities. However, it's somewhat poorly written because a Spire Defender (RAW) should be proficient with medium and heavy armor but not - strangely - light armor. I think that RAI, they shouldn't stack.
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I had arguments, I type out 3 whole different paragraphs, but the more I read and researched the more I lost my taste for the magus's archtypes lol. Anyways, I would let them purely out of sympathy for the Spire Defender archtype. They look like the only archtype that lose the ability to wear and cast in armor and not given a mechanic to not die a gruesome death the first time they're hit in melee. Because that +1 Dodge bonus is really gonna save your bacon. Really the more I read it, it just needs to be merged with the Spell Dancer and be done.
I would have said they stacked, if it wasn't for the wording in the spire defender stating "If he becomes proficient in medium armor, <gain the same benefits as the Medium Armor ability>". That wording implies that the magus wouldn't gain the proficiency granted by the Medium Armor ability (and the other benefits) unless he got medium armor proficiency in some other way (and likewise for the Heavy Armor ability).
But since the Medium Armor and Heavy Armor abilities are actually separate from the normal 1st-level proficiencies, I would have to say that they stack by RAW (as those two abilities can hardly be called "normal armor proficiencies"), but possibly not by RAI.
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I think that the magus base class should be errata'd to say that the magus begins play with all of the armor proficiencies and that the medium armor and heavy armor class abilities only grant you the ability to use them without chance of arcane spell failure. That would clear up the confusion of stacking the spell dancer and spire defender archetypes.
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First:
Medium Armor class ability gives medium armor proficiency. Unless, you have the spell dancer archetype. The spire defneder archetype prevents you from gaining the proficiencies, thus modifying medium armor class ability.
Ergo, spire defender and spell dancer modify the same abilities and do not stack.
Im sorry good sir but you are wrong in case of RAW.
„Dance of Avoidance (Su): At 7th level, while wearing light armor or no armor, a spell dancer gains a +2 insight bonus to Armor Class. This ability replaces the medium armor class feature.
Greater Dance of Avoidance (Su): At 13th level, while wearing light armor or no armor, a spell dancer’s insight bon us to Armor Class increases to +4. This ability replaces the heavy armor class feature.„
„Weapon Proficiency: A spire defender is proficient with all light and one-handed simple and martial weapons, as well as one exotic light or one-handed melee weapon that has the disarm or trip special feature. This replaces the magus’s normal weapon proficiencies.„
Lets examen both of the archtype features. First with Dance of avoidance it states that it replaceses the medium armor „classfeature“, while spire defender replacese a weapon and armor proficincy. Two different things. Also the medium armor class feature states no prequisits like for example light armore proficiency. Also you can find what exactly gets replaced at archive of nethys which is:
Spire defender: Weapon/Armor Proficiencies; Spell Recall
Spelldancer: Arcane Pool; 5th-level Bonus Feat; Medium Armor; Heavy Armor
Again no similarities. I hope i argued my point for the RAW part.
@Kayrell: The argument is years dead. Check dates, yeah?
Years, you say? Excellent.
Im sorry good sir but you are wrong in case of RAW.
„Dance of Avoidance (Su): At 7th level, while wearing light armor or no armor, a spell dancer gains a +2 insight bonus to Armor Class. This ability replaces the medium armor class feature.
Greater Dance of Avoidance (Su): At 13th level, while wearing light armor or no armor, a spell dancer’s insight bon us to Armor Class increases to +4. This ability replaces the heavy armor class feature.„
„Weapon Proficiency: A spire defender is proficient with all light and one-handed simple and martial weapons, as well as one exotic light or one-handed melee weapon that has the disarm or trip special feature. This replaces the magus’s normal weapon proficiencies.„
You missed this critical part
Bonus Feats (Ex): At 1st level, the spire defender gains Combat Expertise and Dodge as bonus feats, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites. The spire defender is not proficient in any kind of armor or shield. The spire defender does not have the magus’ ability to ignore arcane spell failure from armor; however, if the spire defender becomes proficient in light armor, he automatically gains the magus’s ability to ignore the arcane spell failure chance of light armor. If he becomes proficient in medium armor, at 7th level he ignores medium armor’s chance of arcane spell failure. If he becomes proficient in heavy armor, at 13th level he ignores heavy armor’s chance of arcane spell failure. This replaces the magus’s normal armor proficiencies.
By RAW the two archetypes do not stack because both of them modify the character's armor proficiencies. It doesn't matter if the two abilities actually create a conflict or not.
For Example:
If archetype A modifies your skills by giving your proficiency in Skill Y and archetype B modifies your skills by giving you proficiency in Skill X. The two archetypes (by RAW) do not stack.
Certainly you can talk to your DM to make an exception. If there is an obvious way the overlapping modifications would work (gaining proficiency with Skills X and Y for example) then I think most DMs will be amenable to allowing a PC to take both archetypes. But it would be a house rule.