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So, the other day when building a character for an application on a PbP, I found myself coming back and thinking about my favorite class - the fighter.
I really cannot tell if he is my favorite because of the old days of yore when I became fascinated with the amount of available feats (and the variety was not as astounding as it is today), or simply because I just find that the grizzled veteran of many battles, pushing forward with a tight grip on his faithful blade, is simply charismatic, but the fact remains that fighter still ranks number one on my list.
Now... I have seen this debated over and over again in the forums, but I wanna relaunch it - the thing is, maybe I should be thinking paladin, but I also tend to look at the fighters as the vanguard of the group, not only in terms of the meat shield, but also as the guy that is there to lay himself on the line, nothing supernatural about them, and only his martial skills to back him/her, there to take a beating to make sure the others do not - Of course I am throwing rp considerations into the mix, but still, fighters are a brave lot.
That being said, I want skills and I want Charisma - no matter how far you stretch your roleplay, when it comes down to it, regardless of any bonuses for good roleplay or good ideas, your Gm will ask you for a Diplomacy, for a Knowledge, for an Intimidate, etc. And 2+Int skills per level and the fighter skill list by itself just doesn’t cut it for me. So what does a fighter has that others don’t, besides a winning attitude and the martial training to enforce it? :D
Feats - easy.
Based on that, I’ve scoured some posts and came up with a list that actually pleases me - both feats and traits, coupled with what someone might call a less optimal distribution of stats results in something like this at level 5 - didn’t include any items and whatnot:
Init +2;
Perception +9
hp 44 (5d10+10)
Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +3 (+1 vs. fear)
Masterwork Scimitar +10 (1d6+10/18-20/x2)
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +5; CMB +9; CMD 22
Feats Additional Traits, Desperate Battler, Dodge, Fast Learner, Iron Will, Power Attack -2/+4, Step Up
Traits Defender of the Society, Ease of Faith, Eyes and Ears of the City, Rice Runner
Skills Acrobatics +6, Climb +5, Diplomacy +9, Escape Artist -2, Fly -2, Intimidate +8, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +10, Perception +9, Ride -2, Stealth -2, Survival +6, Swim +4
Languages Common, Draconic, Goblin
Special Abilities
Bravery +1 (Ex) +1 to Will save vs. Fear
Defender of the Society +1 trait bonus to Armor Class when wearing medium or heavy armor.
Desperate Battler Gain +1 morale bonus on melee attack and damage when alone
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Step Up When a foe makes a 5 ft step away from you, you can move 5 ft to follow them.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Bottom line, I ended up not really pumping Charisma as high as I would like to, and I will admit it, because I could not bring myself to drop the STR below 18. It happened due to the feeling that I had done such non-combat related feat investment, and for the fear of actually being too gimped in combat - and that would be one of my questions to you all - how gimped does this fighter look to you? And what about before lvl5?
Second, when playing characters with low skill amounts, I usually tend to decide between Intimidation and Diplomacy, full stop. But these are skills most likely to be used in different situations, so in this case I decided to go with both of them - thoughts?
There are definitely other possibilities to achieve this sort of goal - I didn’t really toy around much with stuff like Skill Focus, Multiclasssing or alternate race features, so it is probable that there are other mechanically better options to boost this or that stat, capability and/or skill. This was actually my first attempt at a more versatile fighter, without making a Lore Warden :D So I haven’t really equated all the possibilities, and any feedback in those areas is welcome.
In conclusion, what are your thoughts on the idea, on my approach, on what could be done differently or better?
Fighters can be skilled characters, but as you can see, it takes a lot more investment than any other class.
Desperate Battler and Dodge are pretty weak feats, IMO, and Fast Learner is completely inferior to Toughness. Step Up is cool, but IME it doesn't come up that often.
I'd grab Furious Focus (or Weapon Focus) instead of Desperate Battler, and Combat Reflexes instead of Dodge.
At 6th level, you can use one of your bonus feats to get Intimidating Prowess, so your Intimidate score becomes really awesome! Although I'd probably get Lunge first... I love that feat!
With 6 skill points per level, I'd max Perception, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive and Acrobatics, put 1 point in Climb and another one in Swm, then proceed to max Knowledge(Dungeons).
Since your Fighter is human, you may be interested in the Focused Study alternate racial trait, it gives you 3 Skill Focus feats (one at a time, at 1st,a 8th and 16th level) instead of your initial bonus feat.
You've only spent 19 points if your strength started at 15 (which it should if you want optimal point expenditure, then adding +2 for human and +1 for reaching level 4 to hit your 18).
What kind of armor are you wearing? If full plate you could consider dropping dex to 10 and using that to boost cha. The 2 extra points of AC *may* not make a difference. Either monsters will have a hard time hitting your AC, or their bonus to hit will be so high no amount of armor will matter much. Unless of course you are looking to keep your touch AC higher then 10 - but again if a monster has a touch attack, the difference between 10 and 12 touch AC probably won't make any real difference.
The armor check penalty on full plate (if you are wearing full plate) is going to kill any real use of Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Ride, and Swim - unless you can get it in mithral - even then its going to eat into your point expenditure in those pretty heavily - and/or get higher level to get armor training 3+. Your skill points spent there just put you back at neutral with these abilities - not high enough to actually use the skills when it will most often matter. I'd probably wait to boost those skills when you get into the wealth levels and armor training levels to negate the ACP more effectively - then spend a level or 3 dumping skill points into these skills to get to the levels you want.
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First off, let me thank you all for the feedback so far - find some additional notes of mine below:
Fighters can be skilled characters, but as you can see, it takes a lot more investment than any other class.
Indeed I am starting to wonder how far to go with the commitment - in some areas it really seems to hurt... But I am still on it :D
Desperate Battler and Dodge are pretty weak feats, IMO, and Fast Learner is completely inferior to Toughness. Step Up is cool, but IME it doesn't come up that often.
I'd grab Furious Focus (or Weapon Focus) instead of Desperate Battler, and Combat Reflexes instead of Dodge.
At 6th level, you can use one of your bonus feats to get Intimidating Prowess, so your Intimidate score becomes really awesome! Although I'd probably get Lunge first... I love that feat!
A second look at it and I think you are right - Desperate Battler is just a static bonus that never gets any better, though perhaps it can be swapped after a few levels - same reasoning about the Dodge feat - static and perhaps not that useful. Keep in mind that these are choices for bonus fighter feats, and the selection though vast, is not that amazing... Furious focus is indeed a nice option, but I was planning sword and board, so that one will fit only every once in a while. I had thought about Two Weapon Fighting + Improved Shield Bash or Cleave + Great Cleave? Also I would agree that from a strict combat perspective, Toughness is definitely better than Fast Learner, but the last nets me more skills :/
With 6 skill points per level, I'd max Perception, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive and Acrobatics, put 1 point in Climb and another one in Swm, then proceed to max Knowledge(Dungeons).
Since your Fighter is human, you may be interested in the Focused Study alternate racial trait, it gives you 3 Skill Focus feats (one at a time, at 1st,a 8th and 16th level) instead of your initial bonus feat.
I think this one is a very good suggestion - I have tried a few options with Focused Study and the bonus get to a decent level in the focused upon skills.
@Nicos: Agreed on the Desperate Battler assessment - regarding Furious Focus, see my comments above. And yes, regarding focusing Survival vs. Acrobatics, I guess it will depend on the group, but I could manage Acrobatics at about +11 at level 5 with a Mithral Full Plate - not uncanny but decent? Another consideration is taking simply the 3 ranks to improve on the efficiency of fighting defensively.
You've only spent 19 points if your strength started at 15 (which it should if you want optimal point expenditure, then adding +2 for human and +1 for reaching level 4 to hit your 18).
That has been one of the points that has been giving me pause, since the level 5 character is only a sort of projection of what can be - this is something that I will be playing, at best, starting at level 2. Even though I understand that STR17 os nothing to snuff at, as I said before, and since I am investing so much to be skilled, keeping STR18 would allow me to be a tad more effective in combat. I am still thinking about this one...
What kind of armor are you wearing? If full plate you could consider dropping dex to 10 and using that to boost cha. The 2 extra points of AC *may* not make a difference. Either monsters will have a hard time hitting your AC, or their bonus to hit will be so high no amount of armor will matter much. Unless of course you are looking to keep your touch AC higher then 10 - but again if a monster has a touch attack, the difference between 10 and 12 touch AC probably won't make any real difference.
The armor check penalty on full plate (if you are wearing full plate) is going to kill any real use of Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Ride, and Swim - unless you can get it in mithral - even then its going to eat into your point expenditure in those pretty heavily - and/or get higher level to get armor training 3+. Your skill points spent there just put you back at neutral with these abilities - not high enough to actually use the skills when it will most often matter. I'd probably wait to boost those skills when you get into the wealth levels and armor training levels to negate the ACP more effectively - then spend a level or 3 dumping skill points into these skills to get to the levels you want.
Well, it is STEEP at 10500gp, but a Mithral Full Plate sits at an ACP of -2, while being nothing too dramatic, it still eats almos all my potential "class skill" bonuses into those skills - their level will however be appalling bad if I did not have those bonuses in the first place.
I understand perfectly your reasoning behind dumping DEX for CON, but I was trying to stay a fighter, in spite of skills and added versatility. While having Dex12 or 10 makes small difference, it does however impact the pre-requisites for certain feats (Combat Reflexes for example) and that is why I did not want to lower it too much.
Indeed I am starting to wonder how far to go with the commitment - in some areas it really seems to hurt... But I am still on it :D
It can be done, if you're willing to invest the necessary resources. As long as you're having fun, everything is fine.
A second look at it and I think you are right - Desperate Battler is just a static bonus that never gets any better, though perhaps it can be swapped after a few levels - same reasoning about the Dodge feat - static and perhaps not that useful. Keep in mind that these are choices for bonus fighter feats, and the selection though vast, is not that amazing...
Sure, but remember: You can only switch feats every 4 levels. That means it's practically impossible to change a whole feat chain.
Furious focus is indeed a nice option, but I was planning sword and board, so that one will fit only every once in a while. I had thought about Two Weapon Fighting + Improved Shield Bash or Cleave + Great Cleave?
If you're going the sword and board rote, you will need a lot of feats. Luckily, you have those feats. Furious Focus might not be a priority for you then, as TWF is a pretty intensive feat chain with steep prerequisites! I'd just take TWF and Double Slice, then go for the shield feats.
Also, I'm not a big fan of Cleave, as its utility drops more and more as soon as you get iterative attacks... Great Cleave requires 3 opponents to be adjacent to each other (and to you since you're not using reach weapons)... And how often does that happen? IMHO, Cleave is something you get as a 1st~2nd level Fighter and then switches it right away at 4th or, at most, 8th level.Also I would agree that from a strict combat perspective, Toughness is definitely better than Fast Learner, but the last nets me more skills :/
No it doesn't. That's the problem.
If you get Fast Learner, you get 2 favored class bonuses: 1 hp and 1 skill point. With Toughness you get 1 hp, but then you simply use your favored class bonus to get that extra skill point. Either way, you end up with +1 hp and +1 skill point.The difference is that if you ever decide to multiclass, Toughness still gives you the extra HP, and if you start at 1st level, it gives you 3 HP right off the bat. So unless you want to stack both feats (and that is probably unnecessary), take Toughness instead of Fast Learner.
Two Weapon Fighting + Improved Shield Bash or Cleave + Great Cleave?
Two weapon fighting: DEX 15+
Improved two weapon fighting: DEX 17+
Greater two weapon fighting: DEX 19+
--> with STR 18 and DEX 14 I think you should take Power Attack and a two-handed weapon or you must spend more points for DEX
Fighters are great, but I would dip into something else for more versatility options. Ranger has a ton of flavor and benefits for a fighter. Skills, ref saves, a grizzled scout feel, and FE. All fighter have that one enemy type that they dread. A 2 lvl ranger dip gives you alot.
Bard is great for a lightly armored fighter. You can get max potential out of 3 lvls of bard with only an 11 cha. But you get saves, skills, some inherent magic and access to a ton of wands. Inspire courage is t a bad buff either that you can share with the party. It will give you that battle leader feel you are looking for.
Barbarian is not a bad choice. Gives a skill bump, rage, movement, and rage powers. 4 lvl dip min for a unique feel all of his own.
Cavalier/ samurai gives the non- paladin knight feel. Take boon companion and you have a faithfull steed as well.
Rogue up to lvl 3 gives ref, evasion, trap finding, skills, and 2d6 SA to help encourage some teamwork and flanking.
By all means though, there is nothing wrong with straight fighter, but depending on the expected lvl cap, dips can be great tools.
Fighters are great, but I would dip into something else for more versatility options. Ranger has a ton of flavor and benefits for a fighter. Skills, ref saves, a grizzled scout feel, and FE. All fighter have that one enemy type that they dread. A 2 lvl ranger dip gives you alot.
Bard is great for a lightly armored fighter. You can get max potential out of 3 lvls of bard with only an 11 cha. But you get saves, skills, some inherent magic and access to a ton of wands. Inspire courage is t a bad buff either that you can share with the party. It will give you that battle leader feel you are looking for.
Barbarian is not a bad choice. Gives a skill bump, rage, movement, and rage powers. 4 lvl dip min for a unique feel all of his own.
Cavalier/ samurai gives the non- paladin knight feel. Take boon companion and you have a faithfull steed as well.
Rogue up to lvl 3 gives ref, evasion, trap finding, skills, and 2d6 SA to help encourage some teamwork and flanking.
By all means though, there is nothing wrong with straight fighter, but depending on the expected lvl cap, dips can be great tools.
I'd go for Horse Master instead. Better benefit and is on the prd instead of found in some obscure softback.
That's all you took away from that post? It was the weakest suggestion... Oh well.
Have you thought about Two-handed Scimitar build? Good dph for early game, so you don't need as much feats in early game. Late game you can always go for shield and two weapon or crit tree depends what you like.
But shield and sword is boring, every fighter gets that. I have mine with polearms with reach instead. Reach weapons doesn't have many feats for them on it's own, but if you read up the rules for reach and combat reflex, you might like it. At least I was hated by my group for being over-power when I wasn't, just that I used my reach well. Reach is easy to pick up and you only need few feats, try it!
Are you permitted 3rd party material? If so I strongly recommend looking at the super genius games talented fighter (and more fighter talents) pdfs. If you really want a more versatile fighter this is the way to go. It breaks down everything fighters get including bonus feats into talents. It would better allow you to make a more versatile fighter. In particular there is a talent called 'war college' which adds 5 skill ranks to class skills. With the traits you have selected you'll have a fair number of class skills to work with in addition to what the fighter gets.
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Just wanted to let everyone know I am still here and still wrestling Fighter builds :D
I REALLY appreciate the feedback so far, and am currently digging through Byrdology's suggestions - first one I am tackling is the ranger multiclass - any suggestions on at which level the comparison should be made? I am guessing 3 or 4, since my character is starting at PFS level 2.
To keep the things rolling, do you think UMD is useful for a Fighter? I have seen at least a paladin using it to VERY good effect - combat starts, BAM! Wand of Shield.
Thoughts?
UMD is a great fighter skill, but it is expensive for you. Poor charisma and low skill points make it hard to max. Best to figure what spell you want and dip the class that grants it.
desperate battler is okay if you have a courageous weapon to beef it up--though you'd only really want something like that if you had a lot of other morale bonuses to work with it so it's not a waste for such a small case (barbarians synergize very well with the courageous weapon enchant with desperate battler, particularly).
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Be a human, go for Fast Learner / Improvisation / Improved Improvisation. Buy a Traveler's Any-Tool. Take the Quick Learner trait. Tada! You can use any weapon at no penalty (after the first attack), you are considered trained in any and every skill and get a +4 bonus (next to stats and what not) on it. The Any-Tool gives a +2 on every craft check out there so you can Macgyver things up. This setup will also let you focus on the skills you do go for with skill ranks :)
Be a human, go for Fast Learner / Improvisation / Improved Improvisation. Buy a Traveler's Any-Tool. Take the Quick Learner trait. Tada! You can use any weapon at no penalty (after the first attack), you are considered trained in any and every skill and get a +4 bonus (next to stats and what not) on it. The Any-Tool gives a +2 on every craft check out there so you can Macgyver things up. This setup will also let you focus on the skills you do go for with skill ranks :)
i'm really tempted to do that on a bard, even though it'd take some finagling to avoid getting feat starved.
also, while not as crazy, there's breadth of experience for elves, dwarves and gnomes (and more, pending DM approval) that lets you make all skill checks untrained. no major bonuses, but takes two less feats compared to the human one.
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Hello again to all - I have taken up on some of the suggestions you have presented (again, thank you for the feedback), and created a sort of hybrid creature who I do not know if will be doing fine as a melee tank :D
Take a look (please disregard the details of gear selection such as weapon and such - he is just an example) and do leave some feedback and opinions:
Human Fighter 4 Ranger 1
CG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +8
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Defense
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AC 26, touch 13, flat-footed 24 (+10 armor, +3 shield, +2 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 43 (5d10+9)
Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +5
Defensive Abilities bravery +1
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +9 (1d4+4/x2) and
. . +1 Longsword +11 (1d8+5/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks favored enemy (humans +2)
Ranger Spells Prepared (CL 0):
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Statistics
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Str 18, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 13
Base Atk +5; CMB +9; CMD 22
Feats Additional Traits, Combat Expertise +/-2, Fast Learner, Iron Will, Power Attack -2/+4, Toughness +5, Weapon Focus (Longsword)
Traits Ease of Faith, Carefully Hidden, Rice Runner, World Traveler (Knowledge [local])
Skills Acrobatics +5 (+1 jump), Bluff +1 (+3 vs. humans), Climb +3, Diplomacy +10, Escape Artist -3, Fly -3, Intimidate +9, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +10 (+12 vs. humans), Knowledge (local) +11 (+13 vs. humans), Perception +8 (+10 vs. humans), Ride -3, Sense Motive +0 (+2 vs. humans), Stealth -3, Survival +5 (+7 vs. humans, +6 to track), Swim +3
Languages Common, Draconic, Giant
SQ track, wild empathy
Other Gear +1 Full plate, +1 Heavy steel shield, +1 Longsword, Cloak of resistance +1, Ring of protection +1, 135 GP
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Special Abilities
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Bravery +1 (Ex) +1 to Will save vs. Fear
Combat Expertise +/-2 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Favored Enemy (Humans +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Humans).
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Track +1 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Wild Empathy +2 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.