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Personally I think it would be sensible for all throw-able magic weapons to return at the end of the round for free, and for there to be an instant returning property which which returns it fast enough that you can make full attacks with it.
With the rules as they are, I would not bother with the throwing property.
The sole advantage to the throwing property is the max 50' range it gives to the weapon enchanted.
Otherwise you could only throw a non 'throwing' weapon 10 feet as an improvised weapon, with the commensurate minus.
It is an option. Not all options are good or even optimal but some folks like having niche options, hence (I assume) why it is there.
I always hated that argument though. Fine more options is better, even if they're not usually useful, but if they're not incredibly powerful when their very rare niche becomes relevant, why not make them half decent for general purposes? I mean, throwing magic melee weapons is cool. Why make it impractical?
I always hated that argument though. Fine more options is better, even if they're not usually useful, but if they're not incredibly powerful when their very rare niche becomes relevant, why not make them half decent for general purposes? I mean, throwing magic melee weapons is cool. Why make it impractical?
It is a niche ability. If you want better throwing weapons then use, you know, a THROWING weapon.
If you make full melee weapons better than throwing weapons with a simple magic add on then your creating the problem all over again by magic. Regular throwing weapons become less advantageous than magic regular weapons with throwing.
Throwing lets you do something you normally cannot do, throw a full blown melee weapon. Want to do it well? Add returning and distance on there.
Or just use a bow. Or house rule it. But as a base line I think the throwing ability is fine.
... I swear some of you would defend squirrel poop.
Hey. I'll have you know squirrel poop can be a very usefull commodity and is an integral part of the natural system. It becomes even more important in semi-urban environments where the common methods of....
Maybe blending the Trowing and Returning into a single +1 bonus is a bit much. Wouldn't that make +1 Throwing greataxes far more useful than +1 Returnig handaxes?
There are only 2 times I've seen it even relatively "worth it"
1 - When it has been found.
JimmyJoeBob uses a battle axe and we happened to fine a silverbladed +2 battle axe with the throwing property. It was several levels before he could afford a +3 battle axe so he used it and did throw it on occasion (but it was rare).
2 - Concept or other reason to have only 1 weapon
2A - Intelligent magic maul would not allow the wielder to carry or use any other weapons. So the PC paid to get the throwing and returning properties added since the maul was otherwise pretty powerful.
2B - Character concept was build around being the absolute best in the world with the perfect weapon (war axe). There was nothing he couldn't do with the war axe and no need to have anything other than the war axe. Etc... So he had all the feats focused on being the best with a war axe. So alot of those would also apply to throwing it when he couldn't get close enough to swing it in melee.
Both of those times it was fairly sweet bit of the game. But definitely not the most powerful use of funds.
Having said that, I would have no problem with the returning property automatically granting the throwing property. Or if kept separate both having a fixed cost not the scaling +1 cost.
A +1 glaive costs $2,000 + some change while a +1 throwing glaive costs $8,000 + and can be thrown 10 feet (or more for a penalty). I can't have the throwing property without spending at least $8K (or $4k to craft).
So for $6,000 extra, I can stand a few feet away from someone and throw my magic glaive at him- at which point he'll be like "oh, hey, free magic glaive" and pick it up and stab me with it or just leave.
Returning weapons are cool, but am I missing a good use for throwing? You could probably just add throwing to returning and it would work. Or you could drop the +1 requirement and just have a flat $1,000 fee for the throwing property.
A throwing weapon is worth something to a fighter, but not until he already has +5 worth of enhancement. Then adding throwing and returning (and maybe versatile) would give him his ultimate one-weapon-fits-all. He can do anything with it and retain all of his bonuses for using his favourite weapon.
A throwing weapon is worth something to a fighter, but not until he already has +5 worth of enhancement. Then adding throwing and returning (and maybe versatile) would give him his ultimate one-weapon-fits-all. He can do anything with it and retain all of his bonuses for using his favourite weapon.
Versatile ability? Can't find it. Where's it from?
Throwing and Returning would have really benefited from being removed from the equivalent bonus magic item system, and have been given a flat cost to be added to any applicable item instead.
Maybe 1,000gp each?
I always marry throwing and returning together as a +1 bonus.
A throwing weapon is worth something to a fighter, but not until he already has +5 worth of enhancement. Then adding throwing and returning (and maybe versatile) would give him his ultimate one-weapon-fits-all. He can do anything with it and retain all of his bonuses for using his favourite weapon.Versatile ability? Can't find it. Where's it from?
Ultimate Combat, I think.
Why not enchant an ACTUAL throwing weapon. The throwing magical ability is to allow you to throw a weapon not design to be thrown. Combining throwing and return for a meager +1 bonus NERFs actual throwing weapons.
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Come on. Not every weapon can be a boomerang. Perfectly balanced does not imply that it comes back to your hand. Matter-of-fact, the boomerang couldn;t return if it was balanced. It needs the off-balance to make it work.
You want to turn Mjollnir into something you stash in your tool box.
If you throw your +5 weapon at somebody, either you need to make sure that is's a kill shot, that it's your "last ditch" effort, or that you can chase the bugger down to get it back.
A throwing and returning +5 Great Sword should be worth 4 to 5 times as much as one that's just balanced for throwing.
I had to throw my masterwork (not even magic) alchemical silver dagger at some escaping goblin. When I threatened to chase the goblin (whom I failed to kill by 1 HP) to get it back, the GM had him throw it back at me. Would have been worth the DAM if it had hit me when the goblin "returned" it.
Not found in ultimate combat
The idea of adding 'throwing' to a weapon being a +1 bonus for purchase is because it will almost always be on a heavy hitting weapon, such as a two-handed sword or great axe.
I would allow throwing/returning for a 1 handed weapon to be a +1 bonus, but two handed weapons, +2 bonus...because it is that much more valuable.
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I would skip the returning and go for called instead... swift action to return it to your hand from anywhere withing 100 feet...
Give your ghost touch glaive to someone with high initiative, let them charge in and hit, then call it back and use it yourself.
Get disarmed? Call it back.
Throw it across the room and it misses? Call it back.
Throw it across the room and it lodges into an enemy? Call it back.
Need to drop it to climb over a wall, or up a rope, or to swim? Call it back.
Returning is so last week (assuming you don't have other uses for swift actions, as a fellow polearm wielder, guessing you don't have many).
Seriously though, next time I have spare cash I am making a +1 ghost touch called mace to share around the party :)
Throwing and Returning would have really benefited from being removed from the equivalent bonus magic item system, and have been given a flat cost to be added to any applicable item instead.
Maybe 1,000gp each?
Way, way underpriced.
Returning is a really useful ability. It deserves to be a +1. The more valuable the weapon is, the more valuable Returning is, without a doubt, so the value must go up with the other enhancement bonuses.
Throwing is the throwaway ability (sorry, couldn't help it). That's the one that can justifiably be yanked out of the equivalent bonus pricing. Nobody really wants to pay +1 for that, as this thread shows. A flat rate, though maybe 1,000gp is still pretty cheap, makes sense. I might even make it a sliding scale, like 1,000gp for 1H weapons and 3,000gp for 2H weapons, but only 50gp for ranged weapons.
("Get your +1 Throwing javelins here, only 50gp more than a +1 javelin, while supplies last!")
I think throwing primarily exists to jack up the price of things that could be turned into throwing, returning weapons that wouldn't normally be thrown at all. You could be a 12th level fighter with Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, and Improved Critical, all for the greatsword. Now, with a +1 throwing returning greatsword, all those feats translate into a ranged attack. Now, just add Improved Vital Strike and some oil of greater magic weapon and you are doing like 6d6+7 + your Strength modifier with a thrown greatsword, critting on a 17-20 for 8d6 + 14 + twice your Str modifier. It's not amazingly efficient, but it's a way to knock out more than 1/4 of a CR 12 opponent's hit points at a range with a greatsword fighter.
Wow... really? Seeing as Throwing can ONLY be placed on MELEE weapons. Why would you throw your melee weapon anyway? Your telling me that your whining over making your greatsword on par with a throwing axe or javelin? Throwing deserves its +1 bonus. Keeps it out of the hands of the flakey "I want one weapon to do everything" player. Throwing also removes the improvised weapon from throwing a weapon not designed for throwing.
To the Called comment. Doesn't work exactly that way.
Disarmed... yes.
Thrown... yes.
Letting your friend use it... NO!
If your friend uses it, you are no longer the wielder of it. It is not specifically tuned to you.
Balance of a weapon only means that it is properly weight for it's intended purpose. A perfectly balanced greatsword (or masterwork as the more common term) is weighted in such a way as to maximize the slashing of the weapon. Not that it's appropriately weighted to be thrown or any other improvised used.
Are there already gloves around, that add the 'rerturning' ability to every light or simple weapon thrown with them (for one round)?
If not, what would be the price on that? The same as your ordinary +1 weapon (+50%)?
Dunno about gloves, but there is the Belt of Mighty Hurling (Greater).
Returning Weapon is a spell in Ultimate Combat. Level 2 wizard. I won't get into cheese of having a magus make it instead of a wizard, there's plenty of argument about whether that's valid or not, so assume wizard for now.
Making a permanent continuous pair of gloves that have this ability imparted to a thrown weapon would be SL x CL x 2,000gp, x2 because the spell is 1 minute/level. So that is 2 x 3 x 2,000 x 2 = 24,000gp.
Arguably, someone may say that the spell has to be put on a weapon, putting it on gloves doesn't impart the ability to weapons. Meh. We already have ranged weapons like bows, etc., that have abilities imparted to ammunition, and for 24,000gp, I think it's safe to use that as a precedent for gloves like these. Yes, I know, your Vorpal Greatsword is not ammunition. It's a precedent to justify a similar decision, not a claim of an identical situation.
I'd probably allow it.
Compare that to the belt, it has +4 STR and the Returning ability for 42,000gp. The STR should cost 16,000gp so that leave 26,000 for the Returning ability, but technically, the least expensive should have a 50% price markup because of two abilities on one item. Which means, by my best calculation, they estimated Returning at 18,000gp, somewhat less than my gloves (maybe a magus made them - just kidding, that would only be 4,000gp, as I said above, cheese):
24,000 (+4 STR = 16,000 x 1.5 = 24,000)
18,000 (Returning)
------------
42,000
So, price the gloves at 18,000 like Paizo did, or at 24,000 like the Magic Item Creation rules would suggest. Either way, probably good.
(Actually, the belt does other stuff too, like letting you use your STR mod instead of DEX mod when throwing a weapon, and increasing range increment, so if I try to price all of that separately, maybe they did have a Magus enchant the Returning part for only 4,000)
Pre-requisite for the Returning magical property is the throwing property (magical or natural). Where as making gloves that allow throwing is fine and good, but your weapon could not have the returning magical property as the throwing ability is only imparted on the weapon and not on the weapon itself.
Sounds fine to me, having a pair of gloves that returns ONLY darts, throwing daggers, throwing axes, shuriken and the like (as well as any other weapon that has the throwing ability) back to your hands was my intention.
Throwing and Returning would have really benefited from being removed from the equivalent bonus magic item system, and have been given a flat cost to be added to any applicable item instead.
Maybe 1,000gp each?
Way, way underpriced.
Returning is a really useful ability. It deserves to be a +1. The more valuable the weapon is, the more valuable Returning is, without a doubt, so the value must go up with the other enhancement bonuses.
While true, would you rate a throwing-focused build using returning throwing weapons as being on par with an archer? A good melee build? I feel like to be really good at throwing, you basically need most of the feats that an archer wants AND many of the feats a melee wants (two-weapon fighting chain), and then you're still probably weaker than the archer at the very least.
Yet other combat styles don't come with such a tax on their main weapons (and none of the other styles need to enhance a number of weapons equal to the number of attacks they can make, because the property doesn't even support full-attacking). Unless I'm missing something, Returning is a rather awful ability that only barely supports its main constituency. So, why should it be costly?
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I'm playing a 3rd ed fighter. I have to deal with the rules as they are, not how I wish they were.
I have a +5 everbright, throwing adamantine bastardsword (everbright because my last PC lost her Rod of Lordly Might to a black pudding!). The throwing property doesn't make it come back, but the returning weapon crystal does. He also wears gloves which double the range of thrown weapons, so he can throw it up to 100-feet.
The reason to spend an extra 22k on the throwing enchantment (plus the rest for gloves/crystal) is simple. During a full attack all the baddies within reach drop while I still have an unused attack. Instead of wasting the rest of my attacks I can throw my sword at a baddy who is not adjacent! The sword will return just before my next turn.
Why is it a bastard sword and not a greatsword? Because throwing a weapon takes an attack, but throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action.
It would be worth it if for a flat GP increase, not for a +1 though.
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To the Called comment. Doesn't work exactly that way.
Letting your friend use it... NO!
If your friend uses it, you are no longer the wielder of it. It is not specifically tuned to you.
In fact it does, a weapon has to be in the possession of another individual for 24 hours to change ownership, handing it off for a round or two of combat does not change ownership in terms of the enchantment
Price +1 bonus
Aura moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Weight —
A called weapon can be teleported to the wielder's hand as a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, even if the weapon is in the possession of another creature. This ability has a maximum range of 100 feet, and effects that block teleportation prevent the return of a called weapon. A called weapon must be in a creature's possession for at least 24 hours for this ability to function.
There is nothing in RAW that states that voluntarily giving it to another creature surrenders possession or ownership... unless you know of a FAQ somewhere that contradicts this.
There is, but it is kind of weird. See, I had a samurai heavily invested in katana, and he squeezed extra damage out of them with multiple mundane katana in sheathes of vigor. Because a sheath of vigor can give you up to a +4 enhancement bonus, and I could draw katana with quickdraw sometimes it was better to chuck a katana as an improvised weapon. Think I killed an ogre magi that way. Now, if my katana had the throwing property, I would have been able to squeeze it further as a ranged weapon. My weapon foxus and specialization now applies, and I can place it in a blinkback belt to get multiple throws out of it, as well as have it's sweet 18-20 critical threat range. Sure, its not as attractive as keen, but it enhances your threat range with a one handed, sheathable weapon you can quick draw. You can now two hand it to deal big power attack damage or two weapon fight and deadly aim with it to get a storm of blows in.
Makes me want to play that character again thinking about it.