Cleric of Asmodeus - Hiding your identity from the party


Advice


So, we're about to start a new campaign (Kingmaker to be specific) and somehow, even though it won't be an evil party campaign (just no LG characters), I ended up playing a LE cleric of Asmodeus (could be LN as well, but I think it will be much more fun to be LE).

I was going to be a proud member of the Asmodean clergy. mostly stressing the Lawful aspects of my alignment and the Cheliaxian way of thinking, but then the GM saw that I had elected the Trickery domain and promptly declared "You shall hide your identity from the party - do it well and you shall be rewarded", the "... or else!" didn't even have to be voiced! ;)

So, anyway, how can I hide the fact that I'm an Asmodean cleric when I'm supposed to cast spells? I can get away for some time doing roguish things, but in the end I'll have to cast some spell or to channel energy or ... well, you know, I'm supposed to be a cleric!!!

Any ideas? Your insight, as always, is extremely appreciated!


make up a false god or carry a few pieces of wood and call them "wands" and cast your spells through these. and say you have other magical items like magic stones to channel energy, or a magic boot to cast bless ect... say you are a wizard.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Perhaps the Hidden Priest archetype from Inner Sea Magic?

The Exchange

Just hide the fact that you're Asmodean. Carry a ton of holy symbols and claim to be a cleric of Abadar interested in exploring comparative religions (a god with the knowledge domain would work as well, Abadar is good because of the lawful and contractual aspects.)

Shadow Lodge

If you're a "proud" member of the Asmodean clergy, you may need to to re-think your backstory. Would a proud servant of Asmodeus hide behind a facade of fake symbols and wands? Does the GM wish you to hide your nature or is it a Chelaxian decree via NPC?


Birthmark trait so your holy symbol isn't visible. Prehaps pretend you are an oracle of some sort instead?

Very little you can do about your alignment at level 1 unless the DM provides you with something.

Scarab Sages

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I really hate this kind of heavy-handed railroading of character concept in a DM. Lawful Evil can be the most honest and trustworthy character in a party and still be roleplaying the alignment properly. By forcing you to lie to your party, he is making party in-fighting much more likely when they find out you are a Cleric of Asmodeus. Just because you selected the Trickery domain is no justification for being a pathological liar with your adventuring party.

Scarab Sages

Play a Lawful Neutral cleric of Asmodeus.

Openly.

How many people would be surprised to discover the majority of lawyers secretly serve Asmodeus? Might as well be open about the source of your inspiration.

Dark Archive

This sounds like an interesting r/p challenge. I would love to know how it works out if you manage to pull it off. The ideas here are great with the holy symbol trait or a tattooed holy symbol for 100 gp would get around this as well. Healing will be an issue but I did a party healer back in 3.5 with a true necromancer and just memorized heal spell.

Liberty's Edge

Inquisitor with the Infiltrator Archetype : 1-level dip to hide your Alignment and 2-level dip to cast forbidden spells.

If you multi-class with Cleric AND focus on Channel, Channeling Scourge is nice.

The Exchange

You can get away with a lot by 'taking your companions into your confidence' (in other words, lying to them) and explaining that there are enemies after you. If they believe you're in fear of a powerful organization, they'll accept that as the reason for a lot of secretiveness and skullduggery.

Most important - and this'll sound odd for advice to an evil character - is to be an entirely sincere team player. If I recall this AP correctly, by playing 'the long con' you'll easily be able to drop into the role of power-behind-the-throne for an entire new realm, which is a worthwhile goal for any priest of Asmodeus.

Shadow Lodge

Imbicatus wrote:
I really hate this kind of heavy-handed railroading of character concept in a DM. Lawful Evil can be the most honest and trustworthy character in a party and still be roleplaying the alignment properly. By forcing you to lie to your party, he is making party in-fighting much more likely when they find out you are a Cleric of Asmodeus. Just because you selected the Trickery domain is no justification for being a pathological liar with your adventuring party.

I agree. It's unfair of your GM to demand that you play your character like this - he can suggest it, but coercion is lame.

If you must, the easiest thing to do is pretend to be a cleric of a different, probably LN, deity. There is relatively little mechanical difference between two clerics after the positive/negative energy choice. You'd just need to watch your use of domain spells and powers.


Domain spells aren't even that big of a deal as long as the domain spells are cleric spells - someone would have to be watching what spells were cast throughout the day very carefully to notice something was odd. Domain powers might need to be used a little more carefully though.


I too am strongly against a DM telling a player how to roleplay his character. It seems like you had personality for your character already.
Let your DM you know you want to play THAT character not some other one.


I'll add another vote against the DM dictating how someone should RP their character. Heck, Asmodeus has a long-established reputation as the evil god who will team up with the good gods when it's in his interests to do so (Rogavug, Worldwound, Hellknights, etc).


Hmmm... lots and lots of very interesting things said here!

I don't mind my GM's "demand", it was more of a suggestion actually rather than a demand. I guess he's a bit inexperienced in handling evil characters (as all in our party are!), so, basically it's ok, I prefer to view it as a challenge!

Concerning some of the ideas above now... The Hidden Priest archetype is exactly what I should be doing, but...hmmm... I don't know, there's something about it that does not appeal to me... What I really like is the idea of pretending to be some other god's cleric trying to hide myself in the river kingdoms... I could craft some obscure LN god's variant holy symbol and claim that it's variant in order to look like something else because the "real" holy symbol is rare and might work like a beacon towards me.

I'm thinking of a holy symbol that carries the generic shape of the Asmodean one but also carries enough differences so that it may support my story. It could work because, to the best of my knowledge, the rest of the party does not contain knowledgeable characters (a fighter, a barbarian, a sorcerer and a ranger most probably). There are two hindrances that I see now, one being wether Asmodeus would allow me to cast spells using such a holy symbol and two, what would I say as soon as they realise that I cannot spontaneusly cast cure spells! I guess I would have to memorise some cure spells...

I think that the GM has in mind for me to be a Chelaxian agent trying to scout Brevoy's movements in the River Kingdoms, though I'm not sure yet. If this is the case then my pride in my Chelaxian and Asmodean heritage would be satisfied! :)

How about being (almost!) entirely honest? I could take the Separatist archetype and not lie about being Chelaxian or even about following Asmodeus, instead claiming that even though I was a son of a minor noble house I was deemed a heretic for my views concerning the Chelaxian society and the faith of Asmodeus in general and had to flee for my life. What do you think?

Any other ideas?

P.S.: I just saw the wiki on Abadar... pretending to be Abadar's cleric might actually work! I was going to focus on the Lawful aspect of my alignment mostly rather than the Evil part anyway, so I could actually pass for an Abadarian priest! Hey, he's even closely allied to Asmodeus! What a great idea! *grin*


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Most devils have multiple names and titles... why not worship "The Lawgiver" or "Sidonai" instead of "Asmodeus"?


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Have the birthmark symbol trait or get the tattoo holy symbol so that you can access your powers and spells, but wear the holy symbol of some other god (like Abadar). Make sure you have the knowledge (religion) and perhaps some Bluff going so you can keep abreast of what following another god means and make the motions should you need to pantomime it.

The church you set up could, on the surface be to Abadar, but in reality, holds allegience to Asmodeus. Subtly shift the normal church actions and symbology towards Asmodeus. Over time it'll be a country following Asmodeus before they even realize it.

Sczarni

Carry a wand of CLW. Evil or good, it's on your spell list so you can use it without a UMD check, and it'll keep the rest of the party from thinking too hard about you.

Do you plan to do much channeling of negative energy? If not, you could just dump CHA and then they wouldn't ask why you aren't channeling. And then you get more points to spend on Wisdom and Strength and stuff!

If you do want to channel negative energy, it's not a deal-breaker. Abadar's clerics do that too quite frequently. I'd also recommend carrying a crossbow as your ranged weapon, since that's Abadar's favored weapon. Just be careful to call it ABADAR'S favored weapon, not YOUR DEITY'S favored weapon ;)


Or just don't say it directly.

Present yourself as a barrister or a lawyer on the run from Cheliax. It seems you discovered excessive graft amd corruption (probably true) and that you felt you had to depart quickly (you don't have to say why).

Either one would most likely pass a discern lies. You just don't have to say that you discovered and participated in the graft and corruption...


Imbicatus wrote:
I really hate this kind of heavy-handed railroading of character concept in a DM. Lawful Evil can be the most honest and trustworthy character in a party and still be roleplaying the alignment properly. By forcing you to lie to your party, he is making party in-fighting much more likely when they find out you are a Cleric of Asmodeus. Just because you selected the Trickery domain is no justification for being a pathological liar with your adventuring party.

While I agree with your railroad comment, it's frakkin' Asmodeus. Lies are kinda one of his things...

The Exchange

I suppose we should have asked, given the intent of the thread - are any of the other party members playing an inquisitor? (You already said no LG types, so no paladins - but inquisitors are also good at throwing out detect evil at inopportune times, and it'll be a while before you can possibly hope to block that 24/7.)


This may not end well. I think you need to discuss this with the DM and the other Players OOC.

If the players are mature, they will go along and not act inappropriately. If they are not mature, then you shouldn’t be doing this.


Quote:
what would I say as soon as they realise that I cannot spontaneusly cast cure spells! I guess I would have to memorise some cure spells...

Unless you need to pretend to be Good, there's nothing incongruous about a LN Cleric of Abadar or any other LN God choosing to Spontaneously Inflict rather than Spontaneously Cure - they are both valid choices.

Hell (ahem), you can just MAKE UP some random God, and as long as your Know:Religion (or Bluff) is higher than anybody else's, you should be able to create some plausible explanation for why this is really a God that other people do actually worship... or be inspired by the Shimye-Magalla 'janniform' (merged deity) of Shelyn-Gozreh (from Mwangi) but just MAKE UP your own equivalent. You should be able to prepare a good story ahead of time with research, Taking 20, and you can 'update' that story when your Know:Religion ranks get high enough.
Or just pass yourself off as a Separatist Cleric if somebody notices something weird with Domain Powers/Spells (you don't actually have to be one yourself). Or there is no reason you need to ever utter the name 'Asmodeus' in their presence, you can just pokerface it and introduce yourself as the Cleric of Civilization and Righteousness and leave it at that, they probably won't even ask any more. If they do, you can either lie (see above), or not actually lie but deflect the question by talking about another God of Civilization/Righteousness without actually stating that is the God you worship.

The birthmark holy symbol is a good way to not need to carry around/present the holy symbol, although they could see the birthmark somehow...

I wouldn't worry about the Detect Evil thing, although you could be LN Asmodean if you want, if it comes up you can play drama queen and make a bunch of Know:Religion/Planes/Arcana/etc rolls and act like you think it must be some malevolent force trying to control you or spying on you, ask the GM how long it's been going on for :-), that sort of thing, convince the party they all need to use defensive spells like Protection from Evil and that sort of thing. In other words, abuse their trust ;-)

Of course, if you are pretending to NOT be an Asmodean Cleric, you have to have a plan on how you will act (publicly/privately) when you do encounter Clerics or other followers of Asmodeus.


I think in the interests of out-of-game comradery, that you shouldn't try to screw over the other players or otherwise act Evilly against them, there's no reason why you can't be LE and a loyal friend... Going against that into PVP territory is what makes this sort of thing problematic in out-of-game interpersonal terms, but if you're not going there (and the GM is aware of that limitation) then it should be OK IMHO.

Scarab Sages

BPorter wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
I really hate this kind of heavy-handed railroading of character concept in a DM. Lawful Evil can be the most honest and trustworthy character in a party and still be roleplaying the alignment properly. By forcing you to lie to your party, he is making party in-fighting much more likely when they find out you are a Cleric of Asmodeus. Just because you selected the Trickery domain is no justification for being a pathological liar with your adventuring party.
While I agree with your railroad comment, it's frakkin' Asmodeus. Lies are kinda one of his things...

You have a point, but any DM who is the instigating factor behind intra-party deception is opening a can of worms. If the party never finds out, the player never betrays them, and it's treated as a long-con undercover agent work, then it will be fine. But if the cover is blown, the party will never trust that character again. I have seen too many games devolve over the years because players were not upfront with core details about who they were.

That said, there is no one playing a Paladin in the group or even Lawful Good, so it's less likely to be an issue.

Since the OP is okay with the concept change, I'll just recommend to always keep in mind that your party is your tool to be able to successfully carry out your mission. While your first loyalty is to gaining power in Cheliax, you are Lawful Evil. Be as upfront and honest as possible with your party, and remember that the best lies have a core of truth in them. But because you are nice to your allies, make an extra effort to be ruthless to those who oppose you. Follow the letter of the law to come out on top.

As to specifics, I agree with the suggestion to cary wands of CLW.

EDIT: It also might help to observe the traditional rites of halfling manhood.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

The biggest hurdle to playing an evil character is trust.

There cannot be mistrust in a party. It creates inter-party conflicts and raises the question why the members associate with the others. Even in a party full of good characters, this can be a major problem.

Tell your GM that being dishonest to the party is not a good thing. Illustrate to the party that they can trust you. Be a lawyer or be LN.


Its cool that the OP is down with the GM's idea. I will still strongly advice both of them to rethink deceiving the other character and even more importantly the other players. You said the group is not experienced with a Evil game, strengthening party cohesion and not potentially weakening it will be the best bet, IMO. As others have said at least get an okay from the players


Trust issues are my major concern as well... while I never intended to "harm" the party by being "evil" (whenever the issue of evil characters arose in the past I was always in favor of "fair to the party, evil towards the others" option), I clearly understand that there will come a time when clash of beliefs / interests will surface. What then?

Both ideas of creating a phony religion (could be further supported if I were to suggest that I hail for Sargava, an option that allows me to be exotic enough to follow some obscure religion and lend me enough ties to Cheliax so that I have a base material to work with) or pretending to be an Abadarian cleric seem valid, not to mention extremely entertaining, choices. In either case I'm thinking of decorating my character's head and body with various tatoos and ornamental decorations and piercings in order to hide a tatoo holy symbol somewhere between the other tatoos - the Sargavian background would certainly give creditibilty to such a display, right?

I'm torn between informing (OOC of course) my fellow players of who my character really is and leave them in the dark. Telling them is, of course, more honest towards them but I'm afraid most are not good enough role players to not allow this knowledge dictate their character's actions. They might react to something that I do not based on what I actually do but, rather, based on what they (the players, not the characters) know about my character. Leaving them in the dark allows a more natural building of bonds between the PCs and the shock of discovering the truth (if ever!) would be genuine, but on the other hand it may very well lead to nasty situations between us...

I'd like to make giving me suggestions a bit more difficult for you, though, and mention now that we're starting from 1st level so there won't be any CLW wands for some time, there probably won't be any other source of healing available to the party (at least in the beginning) and I've decided to use the whip as my major weapon, thematically connected by being raised in a family owning slaves - I think Cheliax is not against slavery, neither Asmodeus nor Abadar for what it matters. I'm also determined to provide that information to the party (among other things) as it is my (character's) firm belief that the best lies are built upon true foundations.

What do you think?


Imbicatus wrote:
EDIT: It also might help to observe the traditional rites of halfling manhood.

+1! No, make this +a_lot! :)

An excellent comic, OOTS, really made my day on several occasions!

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