i see a lot of hatred for fighters and there weakness…
I must say I don’t understand why … we are now level 8, but I'll post you my full image - for a level 12 fighter.
I don’t / won't do more DPR than other's I think the ranger will out shine me in pure damage - but I don’t think that’s what fighters are all about…
No one will ever remember the session you caused 30 and not 25 damage per hit - but all will remember the funny maneuvers you did..
I think fights should never be all about a dice and pluses, but go for tactics.
no specilazation makes you able to use whatever found easy.
weapon focus, i will take later on cause of pre-req
And my character can do a lot of many things…
The best about fighters that he rely very little on magical items and such, and more on his skills in arms.
I make sure to take int as fighters, so I'll have 5 ranks / level…almost like a ranger.
The build is down.
What else am I missing that can be great?
*** only feats from advance + combat + PHB + magic are allowed ***
The tactics:
Vs opponent I can trip:
Close in, hit hard 1 attack with a dirty trick, if I effect I can a trip for swift action, if I trip it provokes form me and the others.
If I cant trip you:
either power attack or dirty tricks for varies effects.
If I can't maneuver at all:
Use a polearm, attack 1 attack at range 10', at your turn you try to move, it provokes and I stop you.
Opponents without reach are pinned away.
Scarlett A.K.A Scar
fighter, no archetype, level 12 (as I vision her)
Str: 20, dex:14, con:14, int:14 wis:10 cha:8
Hp - we have a fix number per level (per class) so: 128
Trait: +1 to will saves, that with iron will ,will save my life…
Feats:
1 : power att + combat expertise + furious focus
2: combat reflexes
3: imp trip
4: imp dirty trick
5: felling smash
6: greater trip
7: fast dirty trick
8: greater dirty trick
9:lunge
10: iron will
11: pin down
12: weapon focus (needed for penetration strike)
Fighters are not bad, especially in Pathfinder. The only "issue" is that there are not nearly as many ways to break the game with them by using doubious interpretations of rules from multiple sources as there are with spellcasters.
In the range of 6th to 10th level, that isn't that obvious yet as people really have to put some effort into it to make spellcasters super-powerful. But once you get to the high levels of 13+, they just get so many spells and magic items for spellcasters, that it gets difficult to keep them in check even if the players aren't actively trying to outdo everyone else in the party.
Fighters are good. Wizards, clerics, and druids are bad classes.
The best about fighters that he rely very little on magical items and such, and more on his skills in arms.
I agree with most of the stuff you said about fighter, I love fighters and they are awesome. In fact, I'm playing one. However, I disagree with what you said about magical items. Yes, a good player should need magic items. But unlike paladin, fighter has no spells. If you team up with casters who doesn't buff, you will have problems fighting many things.
If you have magical items alone or with quick draw feat on the other hand, you will be able to be the most reliable like a fighter supposed to be. Ghost Touch Arrows with a Seeking composite longbow + 3, help fighting ghost when you couldn't have before. Heavy armor and low dex enemies can but dealt with Rapier of Puncturing. So many things fighters can do with their high BAB if they have the items they need!
I think they all balance. Just that many things fighter can do, they have to do them through hitting. For things they can't hit, they can't do anything to them. That's why magical items are good for fighters! Ghost touch long spear with pushing assault will lower your risk from taking con damaging while keep them away from your team.
The only thing a fighter misses is flavor out of combat. They got no skills, no abilities that can be used out of combat and their trade requires them to spend their feats on combat stuff and when you do spend it on something else, it's on Iron Will =p
Upside about missing flavor is that its mutable in the first place. Feats can help shape a character, but you do tend to spend it on nice things... like iron will!
i see a lot of hatred for fighters and there weakness…
I must say I don’t understand why … we are now level 8, but I'll post you my full image - for a level 12 fighter.
I don’t / won't do more DPR than other's I think the ranger will out shine me in pure damage - but I don’t think that’s what fighters are all about…
No one will ever remember the session you caused 30 and not 25 damage per hit - but all will remember the funny maneuvers you did..
I think fights should never be all about a dice and pluses, but go for tactics.
no specilazation makes you able to use whatever found easy.
No specialization? You can specialize and take a maneuver too.
Quote:
weapon focus, i will take later on cause of pre-req
And my character can do a lot of many things…
The best about fighters that he rely very little on magical items and such, and more on his skills in arms.
That's flat-out untrue about fighters. They rely on items more than wizards. A Strength-boosting item and a magic sword stack more efficiently than a wizard's stat-boosting item. Both contribute to attack bonuses, although I'm nebulous about CMB - apparently not. (You also need your cloak of resistance.)
Quote:
I make sure to take int as fighters, so I'll have 5 ranks / level…almost like a ranger.
The build is down.
What else am I missing that can be great?
*** only feats from advance + combat + PHB + magic are allowed ***
The tactics:
Vs opponent I can trip:
Close in, hit hard 1 attack with a dirty trick, if I effect I can a trip for swift action, if I trip it provokes form me and the others.
If I cant trip you:
either power attack or dirty tricks for varies effects.
If I can't maneuver at all:
Use a polearm, attack 1 attack at range 10', at your turn you try to move, it provokes and I stop you.
Opponents without reach are pinned away.
The first two strategies seem like they'll work quite well. The last one doesn't though. If you're 10 feet away from a target and hit them, they can take a 5 foot step (no AoO) and then hit you. Unless that pinning feat works a lot better than I think it does. (It's from some book I don't have.)
Quote:
Scarlett A.K.A Scar
fighter, no archetype, level 12 (as I vision her)
Str: 20, dex:14, con:14, int:14 wis:10 cha:8
Hp - we have a fix number per level (per class) so: 128
Trait: +1 to will saves, that with iron will ,will save my life…
Feats:
1 : power att + combat expertise + furious focus
2: combat reflexes
3: imp trip
4: imp dirty trick
5: felling smash
6: greater trip
7: fast dirty trick
8: greater dirty trick
9:lunge
10: iron will
11: pin down
12: weapon focus (needed for penetration strike)
Those dirty trick feats must be pretty powerful. But I still don't think you'd win against a wizard using the core rulebook and nothing else. What's your Reflex save like? The wizard can turn invisible (with Greater Invisibility), fly, and then lock you up for 7 minutes minimum (70 rounds) at 7th-level. If he's 12th-level, he has even nastier options. Or he can just rain death and destruction, as you try to spot him with your lack of Perception score and try to shoot him with your bow... which you can't apply most maneuvers to.
Your PC has a Will save of +7, which is kind of low, even with the trait and feat. With a proper cloak of resistance, you're looking at about +10. I think a +3 cloak if reasonable at your level.
A 12th-level wizard might have Int 16 (start) + 2 (human) + 3 (level boosts) + 4 (headband of intellect). Note that the wizard started with a slightly lower Int than your starting Strength, and he didn't even optimize by taking Spell Focus once or twice or maxing his Int out more. That's a total of Int 25, giving him a save DC of 17 + spell level. Without your cloak, you fail your Reflex save against his cantrips half the time. With a cloak, you're facing a save DC of 23 against his best spells, which will hit your best save - Fort at +13 - half the time and your worst save, Reflex, +9, a lot more. Without a headband, the wizard's save DCs all drop by 2... but that just means he needs to spend an extra round or two crippling you with magic (assuming you're still wearing that +3 cloak of resistance), while he sits in the air and laughs.
I don't think a fighter is as weak against a wizard in Pathfinder as they are in 3.x. Step Up, for instance, is a great feat for that, or for archers. This fighter doesn't have it though. He also spread his stats in a slightly weird way. (I'd drop Dex a little to boost Wisdom, and probably take a slightly lower Strength to spread those stats a bit. I'd drop one of those feat chains for something a little more general. Wizards and things you can trip or grapple aren't the only threats in the game.)
But I still don't think you'd win against a wizard using the core rulebook and nothing else.
Point taken, but this isn't about how an arena fight between a wizard and fighter would go. The point is that fighters have plenty of ways to contribute. They're fun, customizable, and durable. They kick ass all the time. PvP and higher levels, it's about getting the drop on the other guy more than than class struggle (what if Marx played D&D?) anyway. A lot of that is player ingenuity, creating situations that are weighted in your favor. If your group favors things like plans, this may mean the most. This is also a really fun, egalitarian aspect of the rpg experience, at least for me.
The best about fighters that he rely very little on magical items and such, and more on his skills in arms.
I agree with most of the stuff you said about fighter, I love fighters and they are awesome. In fact, I'm playing one. However, I disagree with what you said about magical items. Yes, a good player should need magic items. But unlike paladin, fighter has no spells. If you team up with casters who doesn't buff, you will have problems fighting many things.
If you have magical items alone or with quick draw feat on the other hand, you will be able to be the most reliable like a fighter supposed to be. Ghost Touch Arrows with a Seeking composite longbow + 3, help fighting ghost when you couldn't have before. Heavy armor and low dex enemies can but dealt with Rapier of Puncturing. So many things fighters can do with their high BAB if they have the items they need!
Ofc magical items help ... allot.
what i meant, is that fighters don't absolutely need 1 sort of item in order to prevail.
They can, in fact, use and benefit form almost all they find… much like rogues can
Fighters hit stuff well? Who knew. How're those out of combat class features working out for you? Or those nice saves?
Not sure if fighters get hate because they hit stuff. I thought the problem was that its that its the only thing they really do.
Actually I am doing well.. with 5 skills / level, I have acrobatics + some knowledge's + intimidate + diplomacy.
So off combat I can manage (not the best - that is true - but can play it out … )
Yes, fighter mostly hit stuff…. BUT my claim is avoid PNLY hitting for + to hit and + to damage… take maneuvers and versatile the combat system.
Fighters are the only one that can master more than 1 maneuvers and all the ways. as for saves - yes, every calss got a weak spot.
The only thing a fighter misses is flavor out of combat. They got no skills, no abilities that can be used out of combat and their trade requires them to spend their feats on combat stuff and when you do spend it on something else, it's on Iron Will =p
No skills? 5/level is almost like a ranger. Since fighter are less MAD than ranger I can effort int of 14….
Flavor ? make one … role play it, take skills and trait and maybe a feat for skills to boost your off game .
Write doc's that will build your character. I think a fighter make you, like a rogue, focus more ion the game and less on the math.
No specialization? You can specialize and take a maneuver too.
Quote:
how? not emough feats... specialize take weapon focus + specialize feat.
also, focusing on 1 weapon, in a low magic world, make you miss on the nice items you DO find.
That's flat-out untrue about fighters. They rely on items more than wizards. A Strength-boosting item and a magic sword stack more efficiently than a wizard's stat-boosting item. Both contribute to attack bonuses, although I'm nebulous about CMB - apparently not. (You also need your cloak of resistance.)
Quote:
EVERY one need and beneift from items ... a fighter just care less on whatever found. he can use most of whats founf (unless it's spell complition)
Use a polearm, attack 1 attack at range 10', at your turn you try to move, it provokes and I stop you.
Opponents without reach are pinned away
The first two strategies seem like they'll work quite well. The last one doesn't though. If you're 10 feet...
So, like I said, Fighters don't get 5 skills a level. Any class benefits just as much from investing in INT and being human.
The idea that Fighters are less MAD than Rangers (who get bonus feats that allow them to ignore ability prerequisites), is kind of funny though.
a ranger need str+dex+con+wis... no room for int.
so, most rangers take int of 10 or less.
fighters dont need wis, yes a optimaze fighter shall grab it just for the will save - but i for 1 think its useless ...
as a fighter that want manuevers a int dcore is a pre-req - not a options.
A Ranger does just fine on their spells with a WIS of 12 to start out.
On a 20 pb a human Ranger can start with stats of 18, 14, 14, 12, 12, 7.
Then put their FC bonus into skill points to get 9 a level.
Heck, a human Ranger who dumps their INT down to 7 and puts their favored class bonus into getting more HP still gets 5 skill points a level and match your Fighter while gaining an extra 9 point buy points to play with.
The way saves work in PF leaves fighters exposed, of all classes they have probably the worst saves with one good save and their prime ability score to function well does nothing for saves. It is kinda sad, I still remember AD&D where the fighter was the class with the best all round saves, all good saves would not be out off place for this class.
Armor training is poorly developed, it requires a fighter to invest in (heavily) in dexterity to make much use of it, it would be better to just give a dodge bonus and a decreased armor check penalty, possibly a bonus on reflex saves too unless you already changed saves for the better.
Feats is a fighter's main feature which is nice, feats that build on other class features tend to be better unfortunately a fighter has few class features and even less feats that build on them.
The weapon training is nice though I'd like to have the weapon groups extended to weapon specific feats for a fighter otherwise you still end up with that one weapon despite being decent with a whole lot of them.
Bravery, an almost useless situational bonus, a bonus to initiative could have been included at the very least.
The grit mechanic would make the fighter more dynamic possibly allowing the use of feats by spending grit and some swift or immediate or attack actions.
I feel like some skills like sense motive and perception should be part of the fighter's skill set to make them at least decent at it without investing in wisdom heavily, likewise 4 skills per level would have seemed fair.
a ranger need str+dex+con+wis... no room for int.
so, most rangers take int of 10 or less.
fighters dont need wis, yes a optimaze fighter shall grab it just for the will save - but i for 1 think its useless ...
as a fighter that want manuevers a int dcore is a pre-req - not a options.
You think having a decent Will save is useless...
I think that's all that needs to be said about this thread.
I'd also like to point out that a Human Ranger with an Int of 8 still has 1 more skill point per level than your Int 14 Human Fighter.
what i meant, is that fighters don't absolutely need 1 sort of item in order to prevail.
They can, in fact, use and benefit form almost all they find… much like rogues can
Except when they use their class ability of weapon training or even their special class feat of weapon specialization.
Fighters are the least versatile martial class when it comes to using loot as found.
So, like I said, Fighters don't get 5 skills a level. Any class benefits just as much from investing in INT and being human.
The idea that Fighters are less MAD than Rangers (who get bonus feats that allow them to ignore ability prerequisites), is kind of funny though.
a ranger need str+dex+con+wis... no room for int.
Rangers need Dex less than fighters.
They only need it for ranged combat. As do fighters. On top fighers need id for stuff like TWF.
Rangers just can cope with low int better. If rangers only got 2 skill points/level the'd need to take a higher int, too.
In the end fighters are more MAD than rangers because they need str+dex+con+int while rangers only need str+con+ a little wis
They nearly no out of combat utility - Sunder to get around and Intimidate with your feats and strength so you can get people to do stuff for you
They are arguably the 2nd lowest martial AC - full-plate and Shield, heavy while +5 Dex at lv 17 = at least 26 AC without feats with normal movement speed
They have no means of buffing or healing - not fighters' job
They lose most of their damage if they go melee and move more than 5 feet - but this can be said of most martials
Most of their class features are easily replicated by equipment that's fairly cheap by the time the fighter gets it - and they stacks!
One of their main abilities is one of the most useless in core - bravery? Yes, but not the case when you need it in the frontline! +5 would make a difference
I agree fighter doesn't have much flavour out of combat, they are like that in combat too! But that's what roleplay is for, to add flavour to our characters! Roleplay their attacks and moves instead of roll playing them. Help lifting and carrying the injured.
I agree fighter doesn't have much flavour out of combat, they are like that in combat too! But that's what roleplay is for, to add flavour to our characters! Roleplay their attacks and moves instead of roll playing them. Help lifting and carrying the injured.
Any character can role play however. Its nice to have class features that give mechanical benefits outside of combat. Fighter has the least skill points and no class features that benefit him outside of combat beyond moving better inside of armor. Spells are nifty for utility, and back in 3.5 there were some feats/maneuvers that gave you out of combat utility. Not sure how many there are in pathfinder.
I give fighters 4 skill points per level and d12 for hit dice. In all the years that I've been running Pathfinder, none of the many, MANY fighters in our games have ever requested additional balancing for their class.
I give fighters 4 skill points per level and d12 for hit dice. In all the years that I've been running Pathfinder, none of the many, MANY fighters in our games have ever requested additional balancing for their class.
I also give them 4 skill per level, I had not thought about d12 for hit dices, itdoes sound like a good idea.
They nearly no out of combat utility - Sunder to get around and Intimidate with your feats and strength so you can get people to do stuff for you
They are arguably the 2nd lowest martial AC - full-plate and Shield, heavy while +5 Dex at lv 17 = at least 26 AC without feats with normal movement speed
They have no means of buffing or healing - not fighters' job
They lose most of their damage if they go melee and move more than 5 feet - but this can be said of most martials
Most of their class features are easily replicated by equipment that's fairly cheap by the time the fighter gets it - and they stacks!
One of their main abilities is one of the most useless in core - bravery? Yes, but not the case when you need it in the frontline! +5 would make a difference
I agree fighter doesn't have much flavour out of combat, they are like that in combat too! But that's what roleplay is for, to add flavour to our characters! Roleplay their attacks and moves instead of roll playing them. Help lifting and carrying the injured.
Having 1 good save does not mean your saves are not horrid. Especially when one of the killed saves is will
You have to spend a feat to be moderately good at intimidate. And sunder to help you get around? what? are you using it for tunneling (that is possible)
Indeed that AC is pathetic. A raging Barbarian will have mithral breastplate for +6, a +5 dex, a +6 natural armor, and if he decides to spend a round buffing a +4 dodge. He has 25 AC or 29 if he buffs and that drops only by 2 if Raging. Your fighter with a shield is about equaling a barbarian with no shield and the barbarian is faster than him.
Indeed no the fighter's job, but 2 other martials can do his job and it.
They lose most of their damage if they go melee and move more than 5 feet- this can be said of MOST martials
No they don't stack. Mithral won't make fighters faster. And it pretty much duplicates armor training. Btw Barbarians match the movement speed buffs but get it at level 1. speed +10-10 versus speed. And fighters are waiting till double digits to do it in heavy armor.
no that's pretty useless. It doesn't even apply to intimidate checks because you don't get a save for them. It applies to fear effects which you get a save on, and half of those in the game don't give saves.
I didnt say they had flavor I said they didn't have utility. They're middle of the pack in combat and useless out of it. I don't care about roleplay for a balance discussion because it has no bearing. You can roleplay anything from commoner to god wizard and how good is independent of class.
Indeed that AC is pathetic. A raging Barbarian will have mithral breastplate for +6, a +5 dex, a +6 natural armor, and if he decides to spend a round buffing a +4 dodge. He has 25 AC or 29 if he buffs and that drops only by 2 if Raging. Your fighter with a shield is about equaling a barbarian with no shield and the barbarian is faster than him.
At and incredibly high level,and spending a couple of rage power to it. I do not see how fighter AC is pathetic. Would a ranger,cavalier, paladin have a higher AC the entire game?
EDIT: And it is a specific build, if for some reason you do not want the beast totem line you do not have that AC.
Indeed that AC is pathetic. A raging Barbarian will have mithral breastplate for +6, a +5 dex, a +6 natural armor, and if he decides to spend a round buffing a +4 dodge. He has 25 AC or 29 if he buffs and that drops only by 2 if Raging. Your fighter with a shield is about equaling a barbarian with no shield and the barbarian is faster than him.
At and incredibly high level,and spending a couple of rage power to it. I do not see how fighter AC is pathetic. Would a ranger,cavalier, paladin have a higher AC the entire game?
That's why I said second lowest, though I will admit I did not calculate in cavelier. Btw he chose 17th level not me. Oh and paladin at high levels will have enough smites to smite nearly every enemy in a day. He's beating him by a lot most of the time and losing by a little some of the time. Yeah paladin beats him hands down.
Indeed, he's using his rage powers just like a fighter is using weapon training. If you want I could have him two hand a heavy shield to pop it to 27/31 while raging. Barbarian AC's at high level are higher than fighter. Paladin's beat them out during smiting and at those levels they can smite nearly continuously.
Edit: Who doesn't take beast totem? Seriously what are you going to take? Spirit totem?
Indeed that AC is pathetic. A raging Barbarian will have mithral breastplate for +6, a +5 dex, a +6 natural armor, and if he decides to spend a round buffing a +4 dodge. He has 25 AC or 29 if he buffs and that drops only by 2 if Raging. Your fighter with a shield is about equaling a barbarian with no shield and the barbarian is faster than him.
At and incredibly high level,and spending a couple of rage power to it. I do not see how fighter AC is pathetic. Would a ranger,cavalier, paladin have a higher AC the entire game?
That's why I said second lowest, though I will admit I did not calculate in cavelier. Btw he chose 17th level not me. Oh and paladin at high levels will have enough smites to smite nearly every enemy in a day. He's beating him by a lot most of the time and losing by a little some of the time. Yeah paladin beats him hands down.
Indeed, he's using his rage powers just like a fighter is using weapon training. If you want I could have him two hand a heavy shield to pop it to 27/31 while raging. Barbarian AC's at high level are higher than fighter. Paladin's beat them out during smiting and at those levels they can smite nearly continuously.
you are saying that fighter have the second best AC only behind the beast totem barbarian, but for some reason you seems to imply that as a terrible AC.
I have time right now, It is somewhat borint to make a build at those level cause is a lot of work. But if you want we can compare 17th level builds. I would post my build with highest AC and at the same time he have a High DPR.
I think you'll find the mileage you get out of combat maneuvers drops drastically as you level. Things just tend to turn into giant size opponents unless your dm throws classed things at you (a lot don't because you pretty much have to give things with classes equipment, and that can mess up WBL).
A lot of people are critics of fighters, but I think you'll find doing damage isn't the problem with them. I've never messed with the dirty tricks, but as you level the CMD's get so high that unless you have a trick like the Barbarian's Strength surge you have a hard time pulling one off. A lot of people will tell you to go Lore Warden but that +6 or +8 bonus they get won't do much against a lot of opponents.
Edit: Who doesn't take beast totem? Seriously what are you going to take? Spirit totem?
A lot of barbarians?
Do you build all your barbarians the same way? that sounds boring. Being limited to one build is bad for me, I have a lot of ways to build a good fighters .
Edit: Who doesn't take beast totem? Seriously what are you going to take? Spirit totem?
A lot of barbarians?
Do you build all your barbarians the same way? that sounds boring. Being limited to one build is bad for me, I have a lot of ways to build a good fighters .
I build my barbarians to do different things but I have as of yet to meet a good barbarian that doesn't take beast totem, even if you don't intend to use the claws.
The AC bonus and the mobility bonus are enormous. Its just not worth it to not take it ever.
Edit: Who doesn't take beast totem? Seriously what are you going to take? Spirit totem?
A lot of barbarians?
Do you build all your barbarians the same way? that sounds boring. Being limited to one build is bad for me, I have a lot of ways to build a good fighters .
I build my barbarians to do different things but I have as of yet to meet a good barbarian that doesn't take beast totem, even if you don't intend to use the claws.
The AC bonus and the mobility bonus are enormous. Its just not worth it to not take it ever.
Well thomas long, I would like to compare my 15 level figther optimized for AC and tanking to a 15th level barbarian of your. I would like to see who have the highest AC and DPR.
i see a lot of hatred for fighters and there weakness…
It isn't hatred to point out a class's flaws and errors.
Delivering DPR is what the fighter is all about, and he does it well. He has good AC too, and good hit points. The other martial classes can out-damage him in certain circumstances, but he is consistent in his damage output.
On the downside, he has some glaring weaknesses and he can do little out of hit things.
For the most part, the other martial classes can perform other roles as well as their main role. They have better saves, and largely better skills (save the paladin).
Comparing them:
Attack: Fighter is consistent in hitting and damage output. The other combat classes get better bonuses, but situationally so. Roughly equal.
AC: Fighter gets excellent AC, if he plays his cards right. Paladin is slightly behind him. Ranger is behind, and barbarian is variable.
Saves: Fighter gets good Fort saves, and that's all. Barbarians have the same, but get the superstition power that boosts Will saves. Paladins get the best saves in the game. Rangers get two good saves, but their casting stat boosts the third. Fighter is the loser hands down.
Skills: Barbarian and ranger get better skills.
Roles & Other Powers: Fighter fills one role, and does it well, but low skills and zero other abilities makes him unable to do much else. Barbarians fulfil only one role, but do it very well, and have a certain flexibility around it with reasonable skills. Rangers can fulfil two roles, scout and front-ranker, and do both well. Paladins fulfil the healer role very well in addition to their combat abilities.
All the classes balance for attack, fighter is slightly ahead for AC, but then comes last for saves, skills (jointly with paladin), and roles. In short, the fighter can do his job, but he can't do anything else. The other classes can do that same job, AND do something else. So the fighter needs 'something else' to balance with the other martial classes.
Edit: Who doesn't take beast totem? Seriously what are you going to take? Spirit totem?
A lot of barbarians?
Do you build all your barbarians the same way? that sounds boring. Being limited to one build is bad for me, I have a lot of ways to build a good fighters .
I build my barbarians to do different things but I have as of yet to meet a good barbarian that doesn't take beast totem, even if you don't intend to use the claws.
The AC bonus and the mobility bonus are enormous. Its just not worth it to not take it ever.
Well thomas long, I would like to compare my 15 level figther optimized for AC and tanking to a 15th level barbarian of your. I would like to see who have the highest AC and DPR.
if we speak of maneuvers, can the dirty trick match the CMD of high-mid levels?
(levels 8-13 +/-)
i LOVE trip which i'll keep.. - that do well for me now, but as levels go by creatures tend to fly / huge / no legs more - making trip a nice thing to carry... and nothing more.
so, i got room with feats for 1 more maneuver - dirty trick seem amazing but i fear - since it wont use a weapon like trip - it will fall behind at higher levels.
so, what else to grab?
options:
grapple - great maneuvers but suffer the same problem as dirty trick... not connected to a weapon, so not boosted easily.
sunder - i don't like much
disarm - most foes i can disarm i can also trip.. so a waste for me.
if i wont find any other maneuver, i'll just focus on DPR boosting, vital strike + lunge + improve critical and such, but i truly like to flavor the combats - i hate doing damage only...
and other feat combos you know and love? (only form books: phb, advance, combat, magic)
if we speak of maneuvers, can the dirty trick match the CMD of high-mid levels?
(levels 8-13 +/-)
It is a DM call.
666bender wrote:
options:
grapple - great maneuvers but suffer the same problem as dirty trick... not connected to a weapon, so not boosted easily.
HAmatula strike. this let You basically grapple with your weapon. And yes it can have a high enough CMB.
** spoiler omitted **...
sadly " (only from books: phb, advance, combat, magic)"
we dont use any campaign feats...
with the 4 basic books, i fear grapple don't count as a weapon usage and as such have the same issues as other maneuvers - not high or even near the foes CMD.
i see a lot of hatred for fighters and there weakness…
It isn't hatred to point out a class's flaws and errors.
Delivering DPR is what the fighter is all about, and he does it well. He has good AC too, and good hit points. The other martial classes can out-damage him in certain circumstances, but he is consistent in his damage output.
On the downside, he has some glaring weaknesses and he can do little out of hit things.
For the most part, the other martial classes can perform other roles as well as their main role. They have better saves, and largely better skills (save the paladin).
Comparing them:
Attack: Fighter is consistent in hitting and damage output. The other combat classes get better bonuses, but situationally so. Roughly equal.
The Barabarian gets rage, which at higher levels can be used pretty much all the time. The Paladin's smite can also be used nearly all the time and at higher levels he has enough smites to be able to use them as often as he wants. So, only the Rangers Bonus is really situational.
In addition, both Paladin and Ranger get d spells.
Dabbler wrote:
AC: Fighter gets excellent AC, if he plays his cards right. Paladin is slightly behind him. Ranger is behind, and barbarian is variable.
Only if he goes sword and board, which will nerf his DPR. OTOH if the Paladin goes sword and Board, he still gets the same smite bonus, plus he has access to spells, etc. Ranger also has access to spells.
Dabbler wrote:
Saves: Fighter gets good Fort saves, and that's all. Barbarians have the same, but get the superstition power that boosts Will saves. Paladins get the best saves in the game. Rangers get two good saves, but their casting stat boosts the third. Fighter is the loser hands down.
agreed.
Dabbler wrote:
Skills: Barbarian and ranger get better skills.
Agreed.
Dabbler wrote:
Roles & Other Powers: Fighter fills one role, and does it well, but low skills and zero other abilities makes him unable to do much else. Barbarians fulfil only one role, but do it very well, and have a certain flexibility around it with reasonable skills. Rangers can fulfil two roles, scout and front-ranker, and do both well. Paladins fulfil the healer role very well in addition to their combat abilities.
All the classes balance for attack, fighter is slightly ahead for AC, but then comes last for saves, skills (jointly with paladin), and roles. In short, the fighter can do his job, but he can't do anything else. The other classes can do that same job, AND do something else. So the fighter needs 'something else' to balance with the...
I don't particularly want the Fighter to be able to do "something else" if you mean something out of combat. That can be left to build for those that want it. If I play a fighter, it is because I want to fight, and nothing else. I would agree that Fighter needs "something else" Combat wise, what that is needs to be thought out very carefully.
Regarding The low Will save, Rogues also get a low will save. despite the fact that they are even more underpowered than fighters, i have not heard anyone say they need a fix in this regard. Every class should have a weakness, this is reasonable as the fighters; all you need is team mates who are willing to help protect you against this.
Rogues also get a low will save. despite the fact that they are even more underpowered than fighters, i have not heard anyone say they need a fix in this regard.
Then you haven't been paying attention. Just sayin'.
Rogues need a fix. Monks need a fix. Fighters need a fix. Bad saves are part of rogues problem. Someone said it now.
I want the fighter to fight... then I want to him to be useful for more, because this game has more than combat. Combat is a good portion, but to be honest the fighter isn't really amazing at that and his out of combat utility is only good if you waste your general feats and money on it. Which is pretty meh if you ask me. I play a barbarian because I want to fight, doesn't mean I want him to be a mentally deficient drooling moron outside of combat.
Rogues need a fix. Monks need a fix. Fighters need a fix. Bad saves are part of rogues problem. Someone said it now.
I want the fighter to fight... then I want to him to be useful for more, because this game has more than combat. Combat is a good portion, but to be honest the fighter isn't really amazing at that and his out of combat utility is only good if you waste your general feats and money on it. Which is pretty meh if you ask me. I play a barbarian because I want to fight, doesn't mean I want him to be a mentally deficient drooling moron outside of combat.
I have been playing D&D since it first came out in the UK. In all that time, I have never heard anyone suggest that fighters should be able to do more than just fight...until now.
If you are really serious about it, invest in higher INT to get more Skill points. Play Human to get +1 Skill point/level. Invest your FC bonus in Skill points. Any/All of those will get you some utility out of combat. Put enough in UMD and at higher levels you can use wands, giving you more utility. These are all within the existing system, so I see no need for a fix there.
Personally, If I played a fighter, I would just want to play for Combat. Leave the other stuff to other players, that's what they are there for. OTOH I would expect to rule in combat as a result, and I just don't. Paladins are better in combat, Babrbarians are better in combat and both of them have some out of combat utility too.
Don't worry, he can be good at combat, he just has to waste resources and possibly gimp himself by doing so if he doesn't have much to spread! Or... we can just give him some in the first place.
Edit: I should note, none of the new classes have the same gig with skill points and utility.
