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| 10 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A succubus drains energy from a mortal she lures into an act of passion, such as a kiss. An unwilling victim must be grappled before the succubus can use this ability. The succubus's kiss bestows one negative level. The kiss also has the effect of a suggestion spell, asking the victim to accept another act of passion from the succubus. The victim must succeed on a DC 22 Will save to negate the suggestion. The DC is 22 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. These save DCs are Charisma-based.
It says an unwilling target must be grappled but doesn't specify an action type. Can I assume that "energy draining kiss" is an additional action the succubus can perform as part of the standard action used to maintain a grapple (like pinning or dealing claw damage), or does it take a separate action, or is it a free action once the grapple is started?
I'm thinking the first one but would like to be sure.
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Uh oh. Probably a standard action since supernatural abilities are standard actions by default if the conditions are fulfilled (grappled target).
If the maintaining grapple which usually takes standard action bug's you and kiss being standard action, I believe it's safe to assume that she can do it as a free action if she is grappling target already.
I can imagine this being a 30 minute action tho, hrhrhr ;)
Actually, that is (almost) exactly how you must assume it.
It cannot be a standard action. She uses a standard action to maintain her grapple and now what? She cannot make a second standard action to kiss her victim, so she just doesn't kiss him? Next round, a standard action to maintain and again, no kiss. In fact, since the kiss states the unwilling victim must be grappled (or willing), she can never kiss an unwilling victim - which means they should have just said that instead.
So clearly she's meant to grapple (or maintain grapple) AND kiss all in the same round.
I suppose you could say that a kiss is a move action, but it definitely seems more like a "Touch Attack" per the rules (minimal contact, unaffected by armor, etc.). Although, maybe it's not a touch "attack" since she doesn't actually need to make an attack roll so I guess a move action would work well enough. It just gets weird to rule that any kind of attack (use of special ability against unwilling target) is a move action, and also weird to link a move action to a grapple. Not impossible though.
Making it a free action would allow her to do claw damage AND kiss every time she maintained the grapple. Seems a bit much, but I suppose it could be done this way.
The lack of an attack roll seals the deal for me. It seems that every attack and/or special ability should have some chance of failing against the unwilling. OK, maybe some power words or equally high level effects break that concept, but not much else. Since the kiss has no attack roll, no saving throw, and is guaranteed level loss, but it IS tied to grappling, it should therefore be tied to the grapple check - that is the only chance that she fails to drain the level.
None of the alternatives make "gamist" sense to me, which leaves me at giving her one more choice for successfully maintaining a grapple, but without an action being specified, a DM could do any of the above.
Uh oh. Probably a standard action since supernatural abilities are standard actions by default if the conditions are fulfilled (grappled target).
That is the one action it cannot be. A standard action to initiate or maintain the grapple and a standard action to kiss means they can never be done is the same round, so if it is a standard action it can never be done in the same round as a grapple - but the ability specifically says it requires unwilling victims to be grappled which means it cannot be a standard action.
Well, it also cannot be a full-round action, so there's two impossible choices.
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I'm too tired to think through the details (too tired to think, can't sleep; insomnia sucks), but I suspect this is a problem stemming out of the conversion of the SRD to PF. In SRD 3.5, all you have to do to maintain a grapple is move into opponent's square; there is no ongoing maintenance requirement. And in SRD 3.5, the demon with the doe eyes just has to start a grapple in order to kiss.
handle it like a vampires blood drain only with the negative level instead of con damage. I.e. Something that happens while the pin is maintained.
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Just rule it as the other thing you do while maintaining the grapple, since you can choose to pin, let go, move, damage, or special attack (ie swallow whole or rake) are all actions that are part of maintaining the grapple as well. It's not like maintaining the grapple is all you can do when you do so. Also if they have the greater grapple feat I believe maintaining the grapple can be done as a move, that would be the other option.
I've faqed this because its a fair question. But I would rule at my table that the kiss is added to the actions the succubus can do while maintaining a grapple, like pin, move, damage etc.
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It cannot be a standard action.
Why not? Who says she has to keep maintaining the grapple?
Unwilling target gets grappled. Unwilling target fails to break the grapple. Next turn, unwilling target is kissed. Unwilling target is subject to one negative level and a suggestion effect asking the victim to "accept another act of passion" which would make the target willing, and no longer required to be grappled. Now, since she didn't maintain the grapple, the target is no longer grappled, but that doesn't really matter any more.
Yes, this means if the target makes the save against the suggestion there's a chance to get away, which thematically makes sense if you manage to resist a succubus.
So logically that fits the rules.
Energy Drain (Su) is a Supernatural Ability.
Supernatural Abilities (Su): "Using a supernatural ability is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability's description)."
The ability's description does not define the action required, therefore it is a standard action.
Except for the fact that when you release the grapple, the target is not "grappled" anymore. Since the ability requires unwilling victims to be "grappled", there is no way to release them before draining the level.
CRB, Grapple:
"you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target."
As another consideration, she should probably know whether her Suggestion works or not, so after the first kiss, if the suggestion works, she can release the grapple as a free action and her victim will be willing to receive a second kiss.
"if a creature's saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed." CRB, Saving Throws.
"The kiss also has the effect of a suggestion spell, asking the victim to accept another act of passion from the succubus." - Bestiary, Succubus
That second kiss probably shouldn't be a free, swift, or immediate action (if it is, she'll be able to grapple Victim #2 while draining a second level from Victim #1 in the same round - seems like too many actions for one round, especially since she might get to drain one level from each of them the following round, while grappling victim #3, then the following round drain 3 levels while grappling victim #4, etc.). Which means kiss #2 should probably be a move or standard action.
If kiss #2 is a certain action type, then kiss #1 should be as well, for the sake of consistency. The existing core rules for Grapple allow certain kinds of standard actions to be applied if the grappler successfully maintains a grapple, so it still makes sense to apply the kiss automatically if grapple is maintained and as a standard action to a willing victim.
A Succubus kiss isn't a weapon for the battlefield, it's a weapon for the bedroom.
Except for the fact that when you release the grapple, the target is not "grappled" anymore.
So release the grapple after you use Energy Drain.
Round 1
Succubus: Standard action attempt to grapple victim. Success. Both creatures gain grappled condition. End Turn.
Victim: Attempt to break grapple. Fail. End Turn.
Round 2
Succubus: Standard action Energy Drain. Victim takes one negative level and attempts save against suggestion effect. Free action: Release grapple. Both creatures no longer have the grappled condition. End Turn.
Victim: Do stuff or wait for another act of passion, depending on how that save went.
You have to release or maintain the grapple, that doesn't prevent you from taking other actions. If the succubus uses her standard action to energy drain, she can't maintain the grapple (without feats) so she must release the grapple.
After that, if the victim made the save, she'll have to start another grapple in order for more kissing.
Bruno would also ask for clarification succubus must be the controlling grappler in grapple to deliver kiss as well.
Well, based on what I can see, by RAW, the Succubus doesn't even need to be part of the grapple... She could just run around kissing grapplers.
A Succubus kiss isn't a weapon for the battlefield, it's a weapon for the bedroom.
Love is a battlefield.
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1. is it considered one of the actions that can take place during a grapple? such as move, pin, tie up, damage
if it is, these types of actions only occur the next round after a grapple is initiated and maintained
2. is it considered a standard action all by itself (as is typical with an undeclared Supernatural attack)?
but then, how would the succubus ever be able to successfully initiate this ability if grappling and maintaining a grapple is a standard action in and of itself?
3. is it a special attack, similar to rake, but unlike rake requires no attack roll, and is automatically applied when specialized conditions are met (the grapple)?
4. or is it a free action that the succubus can only take once she uses a standard action to grapple her target?
which if she is already grappling, she energy drains freely, then can take a full round action
5. or is it a variant of a grapple maneuver?
would swift grapple or the master maneuver variant - both allow multiple grapple maneuver checks in a round - allow the succubus to make multiple energy drain attacks?