Oh yeah I love bards.
I disagree that a bard that is a musician (I'm taking you to mean someone that plays an instrument instead of singing) can't contribute -- they obviously can with spells or a one handed weapon and careful selection of instrument, but again I think there are plenty of ways to play a bard, all of which are viable even if they all can't be seen in a single bard.
Also again there are plenty of available performances for use in combat -- they just aren't the types you want to use or the ways you want to use them.
A bard that drops good hope, haste, and inspire courage on his party at the same time (or just good hope and inspire courage) has vastly contributed already: A +5 to hit +4 to damage +2 on saves +1 on AC +30(ish) feet of movement and an extra attack on a full attack for the entire party is going to account for more hits, more damaging hits and more flat out awesome than most people realize.
I mean that amount of passive contribution is enough to change an encounter and turn even a wizard into a death dealing melee machine (well, at least as good as the monk or rogue... I kid!).
Most casters just wish they could regularly contribute that much to a combat situation. The fact that the bard is then free to continue how he wishes is just icing on the cake.
Obviously, but many players want to engage in the combat, too. They're not content with being the passive observer. With the action economy solution, there's no reason why a bard can't do those things plus fight.
A bard can do those things and still fight -- even with an instrument -- again he can still cast spells, and if he chooses a one handed instrument he could even engage in melee (or with some throwing weapons ranged combat). OR he could stick to acting, dancing, singing, oratory, buffoonry or some other such perform skill and still do the above.
Now does that mean it's not 'optimal' to use an instrument? Yeah, but it's hardly gamebreakingly gimp either, and depends entirely on the instrument in use.
I guess my problem with your reasoning is that I do not see the action economy problem in the first place. The bard spends a standard action starting his inspiration - then he spends a free action maintaining it. If you want to be incredibly particular then maybe he needs a move action to pull out his instrument and a move action to put it away again, but RAW the rules are very specific: Standard action to start, then free action to maintain.
How this "appears" is for the player and DM to imagine, which is how it should be.
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@Abraham, thank you, although your responses have been quite aggressive you have made a very valid point a while back, which to my mind helps with the versmiltude - please allow me to rephrase in a less confrontational manner.
Warning, contain fluff to deliver crunch - The powers of the abilities known as 'Bardic performances' are rooted in the performing arts. The performing arts have long been known to influence sentient beings through audio and visual stimulation of the senses. Bards have unlocked the very essence of this stimulation and have developed techniques to deliver that essence with a word and/or gesture. Through these techniques, they also discovered a path to magic that is unlocked through sound and gesture.
This way although the basis for the powers and spells is based on the various perform skills the actual abilities themselves are from something deeper and supernatural.
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@ Kudaku: How can he spend a free action maintaining his performance, using a musical instrument, if his hands are gripped upon a weapon? It's a matter of handedness. He doesn't have the required number of limbs to both hold a weapon and instrument, unless he's using a one-handed version of both. It doesn't matter what action type is required unless he can actually perform it.
Of course, as stated previously, I handle this by virtue of a house rule. For those that don't perceive a problem, no house rule is needed.
If you want to say it's all an abstraction, then sure. Do away with the 6-second round and I think you've largely solved the issue without the need for such a house rule.
The rules never call out a need for an instrument in the first place, but I'd say that once he has started the music he can simply maintain the inspiration through magic:
Slash the bard grabs his guitar (a free action as he was already carrying it, he's Slash after all) and starts a bardic inspiration as a standard action. A spotlight suddenly appears, bathing his glorious fingers as they dance up and down the guitar's strings. Through the 'Awesome Power of Rock'® the magical music continues playing his 'Kickass Solo'® even after he puts away his 'Amazing Guitar'®, inspiring his mosh pit to headbang the enemy harder. If dragonfire Inspiration is allowed, the headbanger's silken hair would spontaneously burst into flame through the sheer power of Rock®, adding fire damage to the general awesomeness.
Referring to the rules again, a bard's Performance is specifically called out in the rules to create "magical effects", and it states that it's a standard action to start an inspiration and a free action to maintain it. Nowhere is it stated that you need an instrument in hand to maintain the performance. I think you'll find my slash example, while possibly being somewhat over the top, is entirely rules-legal.
Finally, looking over the Perform skill, we find the following:
Act (doesn't require hands)
Comedy (doesn't require hands)
Dance (doesn't require hands)
Keyboard Instruments
Oratory (doesn't require hands)
Percussion Instruments (doesn't require hands)
String Instruments
Wind Instruments (doesn't require hands)
Sing (doesn't require hands)
Sleep well, Detect.
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Dance, acting, oratory, singing, and comedy do not require an instrument, so you are "hands free" for spell-casting or combat (even a two handed weapon if you like). I know it kind of strains credulity to be able to use bardic performance as a free action and still be able to fight or lob spells, but no more IMO than being able to do a full attack with a light crossbow and rapid reload. :-)
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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For a strictly RAW interpretation of the lutenist* bard that can still contribute to combat, there's always the Lingering Performance feat (which isn't a particularly onerous feat to take, since it practically triples your rounds of performance per day).
You start out combat with lute in hand, strum a few times to get the performance going, and then go kick ass for 2 rounds. By that time, the enemy will either be dead, or close enough to dead that you don't have to worry about re-upping the performance. (On the off chance he is still alive, use the lute-strap I mentioned previously to pick up your instrument and keep the jam going).
Or, buy an Adamantine lute, and take Catch Off Guard. Bonus points for being an anthropomorphic cartoon horse.
*replace lute with any cumbersome instrument
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Finally, looking over the Perform skill, we find the following:
Act (doesn't require hands)
Comedy (doesn't require hands)
Dance (doesn't require hands)
Keyboard Instruments
Oratory (doesn't require hands)
Percussion Instruments (doesn't require hands)
String Instruments
Wind Instruments (doesn't require hands)
Sing (doesn't require hands)
I think part of Detect Magic's gripe was that the performances that don't require hands are mechanically better than StringKeyboard for that very reason, which leaves String/Keyboard the bastard children of the bardic performance family.
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"Excuse me Nearyn, since you'll be DM'ing this session, I've got a question for you"
"Sure Billy, fire away"
"I want to make a bard, but the others say that bards are not as cool as the other classes. They say that singing at people is silly, and that I am only good for being the party face"
"Don't worry Billy. Those people have never played a bard before. The Bard, like any other class, is an abstraction of the people living in the world. When you are in-character, you are all just humans, elves, dwarves and halflings. There are no fighters, there are no barbarians, there are no bards. There is only you, and what you make of yourself. What others call you, is merely them trying to quantify your character, when in fact, he is so much more. So do me a favor..."
"What?"
"...Make a bard. Give him a chain-shirt, and a badass long-coat. Give him a happy demeanor and a stout heart. Give him a rapier, and a shield. And make sure you participate in everything, everyone does. Not with your performances, but as a character. Involve yourself, and you will find your character becomes more, than simply a class with a role to play"
"Will it work?"
"It will. Now take THIS, and go with Shelyn's blessing, Billy!"
Using instruments like drums might make a lot of sense in a mass combat where you need to be loud for soldiers to hear you above the din of battle. That said, I'd imagine that most adventuring bards would stow such instruments and start hitting or shooting stuff when involved in a smaller scale combat.
That said, I could imagine a Bard or Monk/Bard, dancing around playing a slow tune on the flute and smacking people with it between notes as well as perhaps kicking them, but standing around playing a guitar while your friends fight does seem a little eccentric. Being able to play the guitar in town for money and impress the ladies would still be pretty cool though. Bards more than many other classes are as much about what happens outside combat as in it. There are also special magic items for instrument playing Bards (and perhaps there should be more)
If you want some inspiration for a musically inclined Bard/Paladin you might try listening to the song "Chase the Devil" by Max Romeo.
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I miss a feat where the handling of a musical instrument can be integrated into spellcasting. A lot of movies, legends and animes show spellcasting throught musical perfoamnces of instruments like flutes, harps or lutes.
In Saint Seyia, the Orpheus Saint is essencially a Bard/Monk with a fighting style of playing high level enchanting and illusion spells woven in harp playing, using the natural lure and harmony of music in enhancing the power of his effects.
I miss a feat where the handling of a musical instrument can be integrated into spellcasting. A lot of movies, legends and animes show spellcasting throught musical perfoamnces of instruments like flutes, harps or lutes.
In Saint Seyia, the Orpheus Saint is essencially a Bard/Monk with a fighting style of playing high level enchanting and illusion spells woven in harp playing, using the natural lure and harmony of music in enhancing the power of his effects.
Don't forget the most famous bard in all of anime history: Lynn Minmei
There was also that show about an all bard party. The main character was even a tiefling (or a half-fiend, depending). They did alright until their animation budget was cut resulting in a TPK.
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I'm confused - where in the rules does it say that you have to continue playing your instrument or use actions to maintain your performance? Inspire Courage is a Standard Action to activate and a free action to maintain.
In fact, the rules quite explicitly divorce the continuation of the bardic performance from any other activities. As you note, it's a free action to maintain the performance. Obviously the bard can also move around (a move action). And not only can the bard cast spells (usually a standard action) - doing so can even mean that round doesn't count against the limits of bardic performance for the day. So not only can the bard take other actions, those actions can work in conjunction with the bardic performance, rather than one interfering with the other.
And, of course, the bard can take all sorts of other actions - even a full-round attack with a weapon - while continuing the performance.
Creative Director
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That sounds like you really want to cast them as hard, masculine generals. That is nice, but it is called "bardic performance", not "chastise troops", "the mighty general give orders" or "tactical commands".
Performance, not command in sum.
I wouldn't call a motivational dancer a "hard, masculine general." But mostly I was aiming at some really opposite of musical number type bards.
Of course, music can do the same thing. You only have to watch a movie like Jaws or Halloween with the soundtrack muted to realize how important music is...
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I'm confused - where in the rules does it say that you have to continue playing your instrument or use actions to maintain your performance? Inspire Courage is a Standard Action to activate and a free action to maintain.In fact, the rules quite explicitly divorce the continuation of the bardic performance from any other activities. As you note, it's a free action to maintain the performance. Obviously the bard can also move around (a move action). And not only can the bard cast spells (usually a standard action) - doing so can even mean that round doesn't count against the limits of bardic performance for the day. So not only can the bard take other actions, those actions can work in conjunction with the bardic performance, rather than one interfering with the other.
And, of course, the bard can take all sorts of other actions - even a full-round attack with a weapon - while continuing the performance.
But the bard still has to do something to maintain the performance, even if that something only takes a free action. And whatever you do has to be either visible or audible. The idea that you have to continue performing in some way seems like a fair assumption.
Otherwise, why would getting paralyzed end the performance? If it were just some magical background music that lasts as long as you want it to, wouldn't you still be able to will it to continue with your mental-only actions?
The alternative is its some kind of generic, non-specified audible or visible action you perform with your body. I can't even come up with an example that's as bland and boring as that sounds.
So you perform. Singers belt out another refrain while they bash some heads in, dancers do a a couple steps as they fire off a spell. Keyboardists deliver vicious kicks to anyone foolish enough to stand within reach of their harpsichord.
To the OP, I have some of the same problems with the class as you. yes, you can describe it as something different. But it is a bard. Many of the abilities are tied up in performance. Many of them are played as a court jester (at least often enough that is what comes to mind).
I really wish PF had dropped the 'Bard' label. If they called it something like 'Magikain' it would have been much better. A spontaneous caster that relies on information, misdirection, and inspiring words to augment assist the delivery of his spells. Then they could have had the traditional bard be just an odd archtype of the Magikain.
I think a lot of us would have had much less trouble with it that way.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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To the OP, I have some of the same problems with the class as you. yes, you can describe it as something different. But it is a bard. Many of the abilities are tied up in performance. Many of them are played as a court jester (at least often enough that is what comes to mind).
I really wish PF had dropped the 'Bard' label. If they called it something like 'Magikain' it would have been much better. A spontaneous caster that relies on information, misdirection, and inspiring words to augment assist the delivery of his spells. Then they could have had the traditional bard be just an odd archtype of the Magikain.
I think a lot of us would have had much less trouble with it that way.
Is the bard really so odd though? I mean, in the same party, you have a chap that thinks its sensible to fight dragons while wearing a bathrobe and a pointy hat.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I have a kitsune arcane duelist bard in PFS. I typically begin Inspire Courage with a canine howl (standard action), then move forward into battle with my rapier. I maintain it each round with a quick growl or bark or snarl or howl (free action) and get on with my business of stabbing and casting.
The problem with bardic performance in combat is that it comes off as pretty goofy. The bard is either prancing around like an idiot or adding a silly theme tune - like having Mary Poppins along for a dungeon crawl.
Because katas are prancing about and being silly.
Yelling insults or extoiling your allies to greater efforts is just a silly song... just like the space marine chaplain chanting latenies during battle is sheer goofiness.
It's a problem in your head, not at the table or with the fluff.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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The problem with bardic performance in combat is that it comes off as pretty goofy. The bard is either prancing around like an idiot or adding a silly theme tune - like having Mary Poppins along for a dungeon crawl.
And the chap in the bathrobe and pointy hat is wiggling his fingers and shooting sparkly lights at the enemy. Pretty damn goofy as well. But I never hear complaints about how wizards break verisimilitude.
The goofiness comes from how you play a class, not what class you play.
... Is the bard really so odd though? I mean, in the same party, you have a chap that thinks its sensible to fight dragons while wearing a bathrobe and a pointy hat.
Yes. Labels and names have power in our minds and the way we think about things.
'Wizard' is a word with meaning in our minds. Someone that uses magic. It makes as much sense as anything that someone who uses magic might be able to use that magic against a dragon and have a chance.
'Bard' is a word with meaning in our minds. Someone that is a poet, musician, actor, playwrite. Now saying he can use those skills to fool the dragon. Yeah, that kinda makes sense. Saying he can use those skills to make everyone else fight better against the dragon... Not so much.
It is easy to say "You are too caught up in the name." Yes that's true. But that is how most people's minds work.
Just on these forums look at all the people that get in arguments over whether something should be an 'exotic' weapon. Whether an item is exotic someplace and time is completely irrelevant to a pretend game in a pretend world. But the word has a meaning when they think about it.
Look at all the people that are convinced 'organic' or 'natural' foods are more healthy. Saying a food is 'organic' or 'natural' means precisely nothing with regard to health. The wooden door to your house is organic. The cotton socks you are wearing are organic. A rotten tree stump is organic. Lead is natural. Mercury is natural. Heck tar is both organic and natural. But you won't live long eating it.
Notice the food industry that uses these labels is very careful to never define what they mean when they use them. They have a figurative gold mine by just working off what your own mind conjures when you hear the word.
It is easy to say, "Just think of something else." But that is not how most peoples minds work. When we read or hear a word the thing that first comes to mind is what you first learned as the meaning for that word. If someone tells me bard, an inspiring commanders speech is not what comes to mind. (Even if I thought an inspiring speech could have that effect which I don't.)
If the class had a new name that didn't have an already firm meaning in our minds and said it's power was a special kind of magic. And then a very small subset of those casters used similar magic to influence audiences. Alot of us would have a much less difficulty swallowing it.
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First time I heard of the bard, I pictured the rooster from Disney's Robin Hood.
Now, whenever I hear the word bard, I'm thinking of the guy who stands strong, when even the Paladin gives up.
-Nearyn
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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If the class had a new name that didn't have an already firm meaning in our minds and said it's power was a special kind of magic. And then a very small subset of those casters used similar magic to influence audiences. Alot of us would have a much less difficulty swallowing it.
But you're not talking about just changing the name, you're talking about stripping the music and poetry from the class altogether. If feel that flavor is important to the class, and 'Bard' captures that flavor perfectly.
The "special kind of magic" bards cast is music/poetry. That's what makes if different. The concept comes from the strong connection between music/poetry and magic in human mythology. Think about when you see people cast spells in stories? How often do the magic words take the form of a rhyme, or even a short poem? Or to take a more modern example, look at Zelda games, where Link can control time/the weather by learning songs to play on his magic instrument. Singing swords, magic harps, insults so powerful they cause your enemy to break out in boils. This is the concept for the Bard, and that's why 'Bard' is such a good fit. The name brings associations and history with it that match what the class does.
The same just isn't true of 'Magikain'. My first response? "Ah, a class that harnesses the power of typographical errors! Tell us, what misspells you have prepared today? Lightning Dolt? Yeast Shape I? Explosive Prunes?"
I don't mean to pick on you, but that was honestly what went through my head. The name doesn't have any cultural traction (at least not to me) so my brain filled in the gaps with something terribly goofy.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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The other classes are much easier as each name conjures up the picture of a hero.
But with the word bard you get some horrible, mangled image of court jester, Pied Piper of Hamlin, Orpheus strumming the lyre, Nordic guy with a long beard reciting the Edda, and a traveling troubador at the inn with a lute and brightly-striped puffy get-up.You can try to bend the class to make it seem a bit more serious, but think bard (English word) and that's what you get.
I always think of Bard the Bowman from The Hobbit...who honestly probably isn't a bard at all.
...although that speech he gives his arrow before killing Smaug is pretty badass.
"Black Arrow! I have saved you to the last. You have never failed me and always I have recovered you. I had you from my father and he from of old. If ever you came from the forges of the true king under the Mountain, go now and speed well!”
I have to agree with a fair number of people that the musician is a bit silly, I never had a single player play a bard without refluffing it.
At the same time the class does not really fit the profile of a tactician or battle leader, the class abilities do not really fit, archetypes do make this a bit easier to chew but far from perfect. Mechanically it is a very solid class though, just somewhat silly..
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One of my Bards is a bugler. Alone on watch, spots a group creeping up on the campsite. Sounds the "To Arms" bugle call waking everyone rather than having to rouse each individually.
Another time, with a good bluff check, Perform(Wind) and Ghost Sounds spell, called a non-existant allied unit who's bugler responded (the ghost sound made to sound like a distant bugle). The enemy fled before these non-existant reinforcements arrived.
So you can do your bardic performance with a one-handed instrument if you choose to.
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This role playing game was a lot better before we had to use our imaginations and stuff.
... But you're not talking about just changing the name, you're talking about stripping the music and poetry from the class altogether. If feel that flavor is important to the class, and 'Bard' captures that flavor perfectly.
The "special kind of magic" bards cast is music/poetry. That's what makes if different. ...
But that is what most of those examples people gave and most of the archtypes are already doing. They are saying just think of the word as something different. A stirring speech, orders from a commander, brilliant tactical advice. But they are saying to use that meaning while using a word that means something different.
... The concept comes from the strong connection between music/poetry and magic in human mythology. Think about when you see people cast spells in stories? How often do the magic words take the form of a rhyme, or even a short poem? Or to take a more modern example, look at Zelda games, where Link can control time/the weather by learning songs to play on his magic instrument. Singing swords, magic harps, insults so powerful they cause your enemy to break out in boils. This is the concept for the Bard, and that's why 'Bard' is such a good fit. The name brings associations and history with it that match what the class does. ...
You are actually kinda making my point. The word calls up those meaning for you because that is what you learned to associate it with. For many of us it does not call up those same things because that is not what we learned to associate it with.
Also, some of those I can deal with. I wouldn't have problems with someone playing a song on a magical harp and making the listener feel more friendly. Of if music has magic I could see a special piece slowly affecting the weather. I could wrap my head around a short poem being the activation words for a magic spell.
But 20 word speech I can deliver, tiny portion of song I can sing, the couple steps of my dance, or the music I can play in less than 6 seconds being so awe inspiring that all my allies instantly fight better. The court jester is so funny that everyone is suddenly friends. Those I have a hard time with.
Remember for many of us bard does not instantly make us think of magic. It is song, dance, and acting. We have a hard time seeing those having any significant effect without magic.
The closest I've seen to a believable bard (using the powers in combat) in a novel is the Abhorsen series by Garth Nix. Which makes me think of the sound striker archtype. But even that has very few of the classic rpg bard powers.
... The same just isn't true of 'Magikain'. My first response? "Ah, a class that harnesses the power of typographical errors! ... The name doesn't have any cultural traction (at least not to me) so my brain filled in the gaps with something terribly goofy.
Sorry if I was not clear. I don't give a rat's ash about the label magikain. That was just an example. It was just the first word that came to mind because I read a novel recently that used that word instead of magician.
If you pick a word that doesn't have any 'cultural traction' (I like that phrase btw), then you are free to give it the meaning you want without having to overcome the readers conflicting baggage. To many of us the label 'bard' has cultural traction nearly as goofy as what you wrote about my example above.
Monks are always lawful and barbarians are always non lawful. The game isn't always a fan of verisimilitude, which I find rather disappointing.
On another note, saying all bards are musicians I liken to all ninja wearing PJs and all wizards wearing pointy hats. While an entirely viable option, far from necessary.
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The default bard is ridiculous; I've never played one before D&D 4e where I could easily reflavor the musical performance aspect away.
The only way I'd play one in Pathfinder is with the Archaeologist subs, which throws out the ludicrous Bardic Performance.
Perform (Oratory)?That sounds like you really want to cast them as hard, masculine generals. That is nice, but it is called "bardic performance", not "chastise troops", "the mighty general give orders" or "tactical commands".
Performance, not command in sum.
Exactly. The name of the ability is meaningless. You can rename it to anything you want. So if you want to call it 'tactical command', you most certainly can.
Exactly. The name of the ability is meaningless. You can rename it to anything you want. So if you want to call it 'tactical command', you most certainly can.Perform (Oratory)?That sounds like you really want to cast them as hard, masculine generals. That is nice, but it is called "bardic performance", not "chastise troops", "the mighty general give orders" or "tactical commands".
Performance, not command in sum.
The name of an ability does often hint at its intended function. However, I find it hard to believe that they were ever meant to be used as a straight jacket rather than possible inspiration.
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Google Piper Waterloo - be sure and look at the paintings.
The British Army classifies the bagpipe as a weapon of war.
The original kettle drums were a bit smaller and used while mounted (that's why the round bottoms) The Turkish army would advance in silence with a lot of those beating. They were also used like the bugle for signaling.
Speaking of google, has anyone in this discussion bothered to google or search on the history of bards?
Bards are still not set right. A bard could get you killed or get you crowned thru reputation. Sing that some warrior with a rep was really a pushover and challenges would start until he was dead.(They were the first PR men). They were also walking textbooks before writing. After writing there was a custom of blinding them so that writing would not spoil them.
The first D&D attempt at a bard required that you have levels of both thief and druid first.
On oratory, look up St Crispian's Day Speech, one of the best. William Jennings Brian walked into the Democratic convention with few delegates, gave the Cross of Gold speech, and was nominated for president right then.
Exactly. The name of the ability is meaningless. You can rename it to anything you want. So if you want to call it 'tactical command', you most certainly can.Perform (Oratory)?That sounds like you really want to cast them as hard, masculine generals. That is nice, but it is called "bardic performance", not "chastise troops", "the mighty general give orders" or "tactical commands".
Performance, not command in sum.
Although you might want to give him a bit more for pf, the 3.5 marshal still works well in pathfinder. Everyone loves buffs, to hit, DR, another action; and they get better armour proficiencies.