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I saw a thread earlier yesterday that claimed to have a grappler in their game that would quickly kill most enemies they came across. One round even.
I'm curious as to how this can be done. Also, I'm curious how said character would stay useful against things that normally can't be grappled such as ghosts, swarms and other less intangible beings.
So, I came here looking for THE killer grappler or at least advice on how to go about making one. I love the idea of playing a character that scoffs at weapon users and proceeds to choke his enemies to death.
Thus, I ask. How would build a high damaging grappler? Monk? Fighter? A grapple focused Synth? How would you do it?
This may end up being a back up character, so I am very interested. Thanks!
Well, before getting too deep into this, I want to bring up a single feat: hamatula strike. Basically, it can be used with any piercing melee weapon (including your hands if you use snake style or hamatulatsu), and it allows you to roll for a grapple attempt on a successful hit in order to IMPALE the target on your weapon. After this it is a fairly normal grapple, although you can use even two handed weapons to do damage at a -4 penalty.
Mechanically, this is rather useful. Thematically...extremely awesome, but you are definitely not going to be playing a paladin. This is not exactly what you were looking for, but from your description, I am sure it will give you a nice little smile. I think you could even grapple at range if you use a reach weapon, which could make you a powerhouse at battlefield control and maybe add some vital strike for damage. Overall, the feat is not very intensive for someone who is going to grapple anyway, so I think many different classes should check it out. This has been my two bits.
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I'm at work, but a brief sketch:
GRAPPLER FEATS
To pump out the most damage you can in a single round, you need a certain set of feats and abilities. I'll just point out some feats you need in your build and let someone else theorycraft the math.
Improved Grapple, Greater Grapple, Rapid Grappler
Allows 3 Grapple checks a round.
Pinning KO
You to double Grapple damage if you choose do it as non-lethal damage. Feat not valid on creatures immune to crits (or immune to non-lethal damage). Depending on your campaign, this may or may not be ideal.
Final Embrace, Ability Focus: Constrict, Final Embrace Horror, Final Embrace Master
FE grants you Grab, constrict equal to unarmed damage and ability to constrict creature equal to your size. AF:C is a feat tax. FEH is a minor debuff to constricted creature. FEM is the delicious double constrict damage. You will need an item that grants Constrict to qualify for Final Embrace (i.e. Anaconda's Coils). For PFS play, you end chain at FE as Ability Focus is not legal for PFS.
Turtle Style, Snapping Turtle Clutch
Snapping turtle clutch allows an immediate action to Grapple someone who just missed an attack on you. This improves your action economy as on your turn you can just do 3 grapple checks to do damage as opposed to burning one to instigate the grapple.
A grappler who wants all those things is very hungry for feats. Plan accordingly for the grappling class you choose.
SWARMS AND INCORPOREAL FOES
Swarms: You could buy a Swarmbane Clasp and punch the swarm with unarmed strikes or your preferred backup weapon...but even a Grappler knows it's best attack a swarm from afar with the standard anti-swarm solutions (alchemist fire, elixir of dragonbeath, necklace of fireballs, etc).
Incorporeal: Unless you are a high level tetori, Grapplers can use AoMF w/ Ghost Touch to unarmed strike the creature or use a ghost-touch backup weapon. Monks, who do not depend on armor, can tank incorporeal creatures with their high AC and give better armed party members flanking. (By RAW you cannot grapple an incorporeal creature using a Ghost Touch AoMF, but a GM may allow you to do so.)
Extremely useful information. Thank you very much. I've got some reviewing to do, but I may put up a grapple build in this thread once I get the idea and hopefully if people are willing, I could get a critique on it.
Thanks again.
@Bruno: do you recommend the Terri monk or the lore warden fighter, if in need of extra feats?
Also, the Immolation Shirt is a good item for grapplers.
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I wrote a super long post with explanations and breakdowns that compared a L9 Lore Warden to L9 Tetori Qiggong and the boards ate it. This is the short of it.
Characters are PFS Legal.
Human Lore Warden at L9:
(choose human +CMD to Grapple and Trip every level)
Grapple CMB +37 / CMD high 40s
Trip CMD mid 40s
Unarmed Damage 1d3+12 / Constriction 1d6+12
3 checks to damage in one round: 3d3+3d6+72(87 dpr)
Human Tetori at L9:
(choose human +1/4 Ki every level)
Grapple CMB +29 / CMD is 40
Unarmed Damage 2d6+6 / Constriction 2d6+6
3 checks to damage in one round: 12d6+36 (78 dpr)
Assumed gear:
Slotted Dusty Rose Ioun Stone
Anaconda's Coil
Pauldrons of the Serpent
Gloves of the Dueling (Lore Warden)
Gloves of Maneuver Master Grapple (Tetori)
Armor with Brawling Enchant (Lore Warden)
Monk's Robe (Tetori)
Assumed feats:
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Grapple
Greater Grapple
Rapid Grappler
Final Embrace
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack (Lore Warden only)
Snapping Turtle Style
Turtle Clutch
Turtle Shell (Lore Warden only)
Both have final Strength of 22.
Lore Warden had a feat advantage ended up getting Spring Attack, allowing him to move in, unarmed strike to trigger a grab to start a Grapple.
The LW has higher CMB and CMD but once he's grappling he suffers all Grappled condition penalties, he loses DEX and threat projection and cannot make AOOs whereas the Tetori can make AOOs and provide flanking.
The Tetori's Inescapable Grasp can shut down Freedom of Movement and the like whereas the LW has no answer.
Superior speed makes Tetori a Grappling cruise missile on the field: he moves at 60' (80' with Ki expenditure). Using 3 Grapple checks to move a foe, he can actually move them 90' away in a single turn (1/2 move per grapple check).
The LW has a feat advantage and flexibility in his build--he can spend some feats to branch out to other combat maneuvers (like trip) or to bolster a secondary non-combat role for the character versus a pure grappling focus. The Tetori must spend his feats on grappling or movement.
TLDR:
Grapple-focused LW has bigger grapple CMB/CMD numbers but low mobility and less options while Grappling. Feat advantage and general CMB bonuses offers flexibility to branch character out in other directions.
Tetori is mobile and has multiple options while Grappling. Feats are at a premium. While Qiggong ki powers offer some flexibility (True Strike, Bark Skin, etc), Tetori is one-note Grappler.
Neither is better than other. Just different.
Agree that the Swarmbane Clasp is a good bet if wondering how to fight Swarms in melee.
If wanting to go Barbarian, consider Hive Totem (which requires Animal Fury, granting a Bite Attack and Grapple bonus, allowing a free Bite attack with each Maintain check so good way to combine Grapple and Damage),
it gives increasing immunity to Swarms, bonus to CMB/CMD for Grapple, Poisonous Bite attack, and a few other things.
I'm not really sure of a Grapple Build that just does massive damage while Grappling, and assuming you can pull that off, I'm not sure what is the attraction if you're killing them in one round, why not just pursue an easier damage optimization build? Grapple would just require more rolls to get to the same point.
One of the over-all issues with Grapple is that there just seems to be radically fewer items/effects which increase it's attack bonus or affect it as a 'weapon' to grant bonus effects, you can't enchant it like a weapon and AoMF doesn't apply. It is an open question on how 'weapon'/'natural attack' triggered Grapples (i.e. Grab, or Hamatula Strike) would be considered to use the weapon for the Grapple check and thus benefit from weapon bonuses/qualities. Probably if you took the -20 Grab option (to only Grapple with that body part/etc) there would be a stronger case to allow that weapon's bonuses/abilities to apply to the Grapple. There may be a few corner case class abilities that apply Ghost Touch to all your attacks (i.e. also Grapple), although I couldn't remember any specific one off the top of my head...
Take the Equipment Trick (rope) and Quick Draw feats. This lets you tie someone up without pinning them at only a -5 penalty. Usually, if you manage to mantain a grapple, you get a +5 bonus on the next round if your opponent cannot break free, which would negate the penalty. After two rounds of grapple, you can have someone helpless and maybe even sooner depending on your feats. On the third round, you quick draw a x4 crit weapon such as a scythe or tetsubo and begin to coup de grace until they're done.
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I'm not really sure of a Grapple Build that just does massive damage while Grappling, and assuming you can pull that off, I'm not sure what is the attraction if you're killing them in one round, why not just pursue an easier damage optimization build?
Because even if you don't kill them...they've been severely injured AND are still grappled or pinned, left vulnerable to the tender ministrations of your fellow party members.
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Take the Equipment Trick (rope) and Quick Draw feats. This lets you tie someone up without pinning them at only a -5 penalty. Usually, if you manage to mantain a grapple, you get a +5 bonus on the next round if your opponent cannot break free, which would negate the penalty. After two rounds of grapple, you can have someone helpless and maybe even sooner depending on your feats. On the third round, you quick draw a x4 crit weapon such as a scythe or tetsubo and begin to coup de grace until they're done.
Just to clarify, Quick Draw only works with weapons. By RAW, a rope is not a weapon and you would need to burn a move action to retrieve it.
However, you can hold it in one hand at the start of start combat and Grapple with only one limb, which is only a -4 penalty...I say "only" because you will be outpacing humanoid CMDs rather quickly.
Take the Equipment Trick (rope) and Quick Draw feats. This lets you tie someone up without pinning them at only a -5 penalty. Usually, if you manage to mantain a grapple, you get a +5 bonus on the next round if your opponent cannot break free, which would negate the penalty. After two rounds of grapple, you can have someone helpless and maybe even sooner depending on your feats. On the third round, you quick draw a x4 crit weapon such as a scythe or tetsubo and begin to coup de grace until they're done.Just to clarify, Quick Draw only works with weapons. By RAW, a rope is not a weapon and you would need to burn a move action to retrieve it.
However, you can hold it in one hand at the start of start combat and Grapple with only one limb, which is only a -4 penalty...I say "only" because you will be outpacing humanoid CMDs rather quickly.
Nowhere in the rules for grappling does it state you have to have the rope in hand. It seems it's implied as part of the standard action for maintaining the grapple.
Tie Up: If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.
So Bruno, I assume one needs to start with a really high STR? You show at 22 at 9th which tells me a starting STR of 20 (barring magical items). What stat arrays would you suggest for the tetori then?
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The examples above started with 18 Str with +2 from level bumps and +2 from Anaconda Coils. Human Tetori:
Str 18 (16+2) Dex 14 Con 14 Int 9 Wis 14 Cha 7
Level 4 & 8 bumps to Str and Dex
Or
Str 19 (17+2) Dex 13 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 14 Cha 7
Level 4 & 8 bumps to Str and Dex
(On my phone so hopefully point buys are correct)
Donato, I would expect table variation with that as I've had judges rule it both ways.
Technically, that action allows you to tie up your target with a rope. It does not state it you retrieve a rope and then tie them up in one action.
You'd have Equipment Trick: Rope if you're doing this so as long as you were proficient in whips or spiked chains (both are easily accomplished if you're a half-orc) you treat the rope as said weapons, thus legally allowing quick draw.
If you are using a ghost touch weapon for hamatula strike, could that be used to grapple incorporeals? I doubt it, but the fact that a ghost touch sword can be held by a ghost makes me curious. If so, then I think I would like to try nailing a ghost down sometime.
Also, a goblin feral gnasher is my new go-to choice for grappling. So much biting...
I'm not really sure of a Grapple Build that just does massive damage while Grappling, and assuming you can pull that off, I'm not sure what is the attraction if you're killing them in one round, why not just pursue an easier damage optimization build?Because even if you don't kill them...they've been severely injured AND are still grappled or pinned, left vulnerable to the tender ministrations of your fellow party members.
Sure, that's the point of any normal Grapple build, but that is not what I got from the OP's post...
He's talking about Grappling AND simultaneously doing tons of damage, enough for 1 round kills(vs. what is the question, but the point stands about the conceptual focus).
The OP mentioned that he saw this build in another thread.... What thread?
Why do you need to start another thread for build advice if you already have access to one that does that?
The thread in question was in the rules section about a feat and I didn't want to go off topic in said thread.
As for 1 round kills, I simply got that from what the original OP of that thread had said, along with his feat question. If it's not possible, which I realize it won't be, at least not for every enemy type, then I can settle for doing as much damage as one can squeeze out when grappling a foe. Which it seems Bruno's suggestions comes close to doing. I may tack on BBT's brutal pugilist for extra damage if it doesn't interfere with important Tetori things.
Thanks again everyone for the insight and suggestions. I will attempt to put them to good use.
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@Third Mind: Once you get Pinning Knockout (which you can grab at L9 as a LW and get at L10 as a Tetori)* you're doubling the damage from the grapple-to-damage maneuver if you choose to do non-lethal damage. Once you get that, you're damn scary.
*=I forgot that the Lore Warden in my example would have the feat slots for it and would take that instead of Turtle Shell. The level 9 LW would have the option of 3 grapple checks in round for 6d3 + 3d6 + 108 nonlethal damage (127.5 dpr)
Anyways, enjoy!
Take the Equipment Trick (rope) and Quick Draw feats. This lets you tie someone up without pinning them at only a -5 penalty. Usually, if you manage to mantain a grapple, you get a +5 bonus on the next round if your opponent cannot break free, which would negate the penalty. After two rounds of grapple, you can have someone helpless and maybe even sooner depending on your feats. On the third round, you quick draw a x4 crit weapon such as a scythe or tetsubo and begin to coup de grace until they're done.Just to clarify, Quick Draw only works with weapons. By RAW, a rope is not a weapon and you would need to burn a move action to retrieve it.
However, you can hold it in one hand at the start of start combat and Grapple with only one limb, which is only a -4 penalty...I say "only" because you will be outpacing humanoid CMDs rather quickly.
Necro, but how does this work? I thought grabbing with one limb was a -20 penalty, not -4.
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From the PRD, second line of Grapple combat maneuver:
"Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll."
It sounds like you are thinking of GRAB ability monsters have. From the Bestiary: "The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself."