I can't believe that list...not that he said those thing...but that the list is so small. I would imagine it to be alot longer.There's actually a wikipedia page devoted to his controversies.
Honestly, I had to laugh seeing other headlines. My dad and my current Multimedia teacher grew up with OD&D, and they're just fine.
Not necessarily -- I imagine that he pretty much says the same things over and over again, and there is no reason to list repetitions of the same nonsense.
"I don't understand it, so I'll just ignore it," is one of the absolute worst guiding philosophies you can have.
If you have decided that something is not important enough for you to go to the trouble of learning more about it, ignoring it is the best option -- certainly better than denouncing it without knowing what you are talking about. For all but a relatively small minority of the human race, RPGs are not important enough for them to want to know more about them. It just so happens that that minority includes absolutely everybody on these message boards.
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The dogs bark, the caravan moves on.
The world will never be deprived of pharisee of all creeds and codes shouting at this and that.
I was taught how to play DnD by a Roman Catholic priest, based on the ethic of 'the game may have demons in them, but it teaches the important lessons that they are the enemy, and can be defeated.'
Its a good ethic.
In this case, Mr. Robertson is not a demon. He's a human being. We know that the meat from the proverbial temple altar of RPGs is harmless. Nobody on here (I hope) genuinely worships Calistra, or Asmodeus or the like. I don't have a shrine to Jubilex in my basement.
So, let him bark. When he starts burning your house down, or rounding you up, thats when I'd bother worrying about it. Your reputation is only really damaged in the minds of people who already agree with Mr. Robertson, and I doubt many of us are overly concerned about their opinions.
For the time being, the only difference between most of us on this forum and him, is he's got enough cash that he shows up on television shows and sprout his opinions, whereas we do it in text. Lets not try to climb up onto the moral high horse and complain that someone else is doing the same thing but justify it with hoarse shouts of 'well /he's a ....!'.
So, let him bark. When he starts burning your house down, or rounding you up, thats when I'd bother worrying about it. Your reputation is only really damaged in the minds of people who already agree with Mr. Robertson, and I doubt many of us are overly concerned about their opinions.
This has, unfortunately, not been true over the course of the hobby. Someone doesn't have to really agree with Robertson to be discomfited by what he says about things. For some people, it's hard to divorce his nutty blatherings from his position as an authority figure. In that sense, he is very different from the average internet forum troll just looking to get a rise out of people and start a flame war.
I lost one good player whose parents accepted the authority of a misguided religious figure and I doubt I'm alone in that.
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I lost one good player whose parents accepted the authority of a misguided religious figure and I doubt I'm alone in that.
Ah, my apologies. Ivory Tower mindset on my part. I never really lost any players to this nonsense, mostly because those I played with tended to have folks who, while having no less love of their children, were a little less panicky and a little less likely to listen to the dingbats.
Still, I think that its a better use of time in solving the problem to try to present the case positively as opposed to wagging fingers at this fellow the way he wags fingers at us.
As others have said, RPGs tend to promote team behavior, inventive problem solving, literacy, and math skills. Also they get people reading novels, mythologies, and in some cases histories. Its a reason I dislike the current ethos of RPGs is that we used to be sent to Conan, the song of Roland, Beowulf, Lewis's Narnia, Tolkien's Middle Earth, the dark brooding worlds of Elric, and the like, and these days we're pointed to Orange Jump suited Ninjas and video games (Yes, yes, I know some are really good).
The major 'moral' issue is they also promote wish fulfillment, which in the hands of folks can result in stuff that parents would probaby look down on (such as say in depth depictions of the succubus lovepits of the wizardress Fahn-serh-vhuss). Good parents care about their children. And yes, good parents can be taken in by the dingbats of the world.
So we might want to think about how RPGs get a bad rap the next time someone's shouting that 'we must be mature to be taken seriously, throw more orphans on the fire! We shall teach those rubes that culture is evolving and they must embrace our gloriously progressive mind-candy!' and then complaining that parents harken a little bit too much to the folks who say we're doing something evil.
How can I put my point in a tone that isn't me sounding like a jerk (I hate that I sound like freaking Professor McSnarkass DnD whenever I type :/)
Don't drive the LG folks to the LN/LE folks by being CN/CE.
or
Just because their wisdom score is low, doesn't mean they're evil.
Man, I babble a lot.
If you have decided that something is not important enough for you to go to the trouble of learning more about it, ignoring it is the best option -- certainly better than denouncing it without knowing what you are talking about.
Agreed, but if you're the sort of person who is mulling over whether to play D&D because someone told you it might be evil, clearly you find something about it enticing. The mentality I'm highlighting is one of, "Hmm, I might enjoy this, but then again it might be bad for me, and figuring out which is true would be hard, and I don't like doing hard things, so better to just ignore it."
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In his defense, he may have been talking about 4th Edition.
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If someone honestly believed that D&D was evil and destroyed lives, yet still played, I'd be a little worried about them. :)
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Ok story time.
It is a story how D&D and people like Pat Robertson saved my life.
During a dark depressing time in my life(High School) I was thinking about suicide (I don't think I would have done it anyway...I was being dramtic). So I was lying in bed thinking about it...my first thought was if I did it D&D would have been blamed. I did not like that as D&D was my one constant joys in life and thought it would be unfair. So I started thinking how to phase my suicide to stae D&D is not the reason. Which I found pretty amusing....than I started to thinking how it would be ignored anyway by those with a agenda. At this point I was actualy laughing out loud....my depression went away at that point.
So lkong story short D&D and the crazies out there who denouce it saved my life. Well maybe.
If you gave in you would have let the religious terrorists win.
Actualy it was more about not letting the bastards in High School win...but sure.
So lkong story short D&D and the crazies out there who denouce it saved my life. Well maybe.
Glad to hear it. :)
It reminds me of another story. A couple of years ago (okay, maybe it was like 10 years ago or something), the headless corpse of a 22 year old kid was found in a lake somewhere in Sweden, which received a passing mention in International media.
Then it was revealed that the victim had a copy of Vampire: the Masquerade in his room.
Media explosion. The murder victim was part of a death-worshipping cult! He was playing occult "roleplaying games" that glorifies death! This went on for something like a month, with the media all but frenzying over the "evil of roleplaying" and how it obviously promotes violence. (I'm not in Sweden. That the hysteria spilled over into international media should say something about how "big" the story was.)
Then, after a month, it turned out that the crime was drug related, and the whole thing just kinda died out. You could all but taste the disappointment. "Bah, it's just a gang killing!"
I was kinda shocked at how quick everybody had been to denounce roleplaying games. It was pretty creepy to watch.
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It's the same with video games and I'm sure it will (unfortunately) be the same with whatever form of new entertainment hits in the future.
Look at what happened with the Sandy Hook shooter, where the whole thing was turned into a media dogpile on videogames because his BROTHER liked Mass Effect.
I'd say smart phones and other mobile online devices are next.
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I'd say smart phones and other mobile online devices are next.
I doubt it. Anything mainstream popular is probably safe from this kind of attention. You want to find those greasy nerds hiding in a cellar and kick them in the ribs. That's how the media works. :)
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The stories are usually structured like...
DnD PLAYER GOES ON A HORRIFIC KILLING SPREE
and then they explain that the guy had some serious mental problems, partook of enough drugs that his body self-embalmed after he died, had a real doll of Bea Arthur dressed up as Eva Braun, subscribed to the Al-Qaeda newsletter, thought that the comets were going to crash into Jupiter hale-bopp style, had been writing diatribes against the Government of Brazil, and owned a printed copy of every book ever released in the 70s (one of which was the DnD Players Handbook).
So /obviously/ our talking heads conclude he was driven to madness by the tables of Gygax.
I do admit the first draft of this post also made me realize something.
...the monsters in DnD always seem to have lairs filled with bizarre, nonsensical garbage (bea arthur!) just like these yobbos tend to.
I'd say smart phones and other mobile online devices are next.I doubt it. Anything mainstream popular is probably safe from this kind of attention. You want to find those greasy nerds hiding in a cellar and kick them in the ribs. That's how the media works. :)
What this all realy is control and power. They always start of small...attacking things that are not mainstream. Than start moving up the ladder. Each success give them more credibilty. Today it is RPGs...next it is cenorship on books...after that movies, video games etc. Eventualy if we let them in they are running our lives.
A example of this is some attack patterns in the witch trails. If lets say some Noble is not towing the line they would not go after him first...they would go after his peasants first...than maybe a trusted advisor...than a family member...etc.
This also has nothing to do with relgion...though religion is just one of the tools used. Also it not always just some Evil plan to rule the world...most of them actualy believe they are doing this for our own good.
I know...some of you think I am a cynic and parnoia...if that makes you feel better...go ahead and keep thinking that and if I turn out to be right though I will probably not be able to say 'I told you so' anyway as that would wrongbadthoughts.
Well, I'm not saying you're wrong exactly, but religious nut-jobs (oversimplification, I know) have been burning books since before RPGs were around. I mean, say, Kurt Vonnegut books; stuff in recent history. I think Theeeshades is right on this one. Smart phones have assimilated into mainstream culture so thoroughly that at this point it'd be like calling out people who wear shoes.
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"If we must have a tyrant, a robber baron is far better than an inquisitor. The baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity at some point be sated; and since he dimly knows he is doing wrong he may possibly repent. But the inquisitor who mistakes his own cruelty and lust of power and fear for the voice of Heaven will torment us infinitely because he torments us with the approval of his own conscience and his better impulses appear to him as temptations." - C.S. Lewis
Just throwing this out there.
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"If we must have a tyrant, a robber baron is far better than an inquisitor. The baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity at some point be sated; and since he dimly knows he is doing wrong he may possibly repent. But the inquisitor who mistakes his own cruelty and lust of power and fear for the voice of Heaven will torment us infinitely because he torments us with the approval of his own conscience and his better impulses appear to him as temptations." - C.S. Lewis
Just throwing this out there.
Sadly, political ideologies often take the place of religion in that regard. Even secular ones take on a salvationism from Marxism to Randism, patriotism, nationalism and all points in between.
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I'd say smart phones and other mobile online devices are next.I doubt it. Anything mainstream popular is probably safe from this kind of attention. You want to find those greasy nerds hiding in a cellar and kick them in the ribs. That's how the media works. :)
They've already vilified smart phones, talking about how they make us stupider and turn us into zombies.
They've already vilified smart phones, talking about how they make us stupider and turn us into zombies.
That second one looks pretty accurate to me. People like you and cyz who can actually put a text-y phone in their pocket and stop looking at it for a minute and a half? Those people are getting to be rather a minority.
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They've already vilified smart phones, talking about how they make us stupider and turn us into zombies.That second one looks pretty accurate to me. People like you and cyz who can actually put a text-y phone in their pocket and stop looking at it for a minute and a half? Those people are getting to be rather a minority.
See, Kirth, I know from the Horrible Milk Incident thread that you're the kind of fascist who demands that guests take off their shoes, so my point stands. :P
Glad to see he has such an open mind.
Does the calendar say 1982?
Ah, poor Pat, bless him!
I guess it depends on what you mean by "life".
On the one hand, I would say that the vast majority of the fantasy game players I've ever known are quite aware that goblins, orcs, spirits, ghosts, animated skeletons, fireballs, and Melf's Acid Arrows are products of the human imagination, with no more power over the real world than any other fiction, and that the vast majority of fantasy game players lead productive, healthy, constructive lives.
On the other, there's also that occasional guy we've all bumped into at one time or another, who talks about his character like it's real, and follows you around the game store telling you things about his exploits that you never wanted to hear...
...just like there's the occasional guy who follows you around with a Bible trying to tell you about how God makes him speak in tongues or the devil possessed his computer and made error messages appear, or there is the occasional guy who thinks that waving a dead chicken over his head is the supernatural equivalent of taking Viagra or antibiotics, or there is the occasional guy who lifts weights and takes steroids until he looks like a Klingon who will chase you around and tell you what you what not to eat or how much exercise to get, or there's the occasional guy who will follow you around and tell you that you need to sacrifice your favorite things to the Earth Goddess or she will burn you up with Global Warming for your pride and hubris.
For every interest out there, there's a certain number of people who get a little side-tracked and wander off the yellow-brick-road until they no longer quite see eye-to-eye with reality about what a "real life" is, and how to spend it.
We could all point to That One Guy anytime we want to dismiss a given group of people, but I suppose the lesson to take away from this is that really, not everyone is that stinky Level 95 Vampire Warlock Ninja Werewolf with the Cheetos following you around the gaming store, or knocking on your door to wave a Bible in the air and scream at you to burn your Mazes and Monsters books or the devil is gonna get you....
Glad to see he has such an open mind.
Does the calendar say 1982?
Ah, poor Pat, bless him!
I guess it depends on what you mean by "life".
On the one hand, I would say that the vast majority of the fantasy game players I've ever known are quite aware that goblins, orcs, spirits, ghosts, animated skeletons, fireballs, and Melf's Acid Arrows are products of the human imagination, with no more power over the real world than any other fiction, and that the vast majority of fantasy game players lead productive, healthy, constructive lives.
On the other, there's also that occasional guy we've all bumped into at one time or another, who talks about his character like it's real, and follows you around the game store telling you things about his exploits that you never wanted to hear...
...just like there's the occasional guy who follows you around with a Bible trying to tell you about how God makes him speak in tongues or the devil possessed his computer and made error messages appear, or there is the occasional guy who thinks that waving a dead chicken over his head is the supernatural equivalent of taking Viagra or antibiotics, or there is the occasional guy who lifts weights and takes steroids until he looks like a Klingon who will chase you around and tell you what you what not to eat or how much exercise to get, or there's the occasional guy who will follow you around and tell you that you need to sacrifice your favorite things to the Earth Goddess or she will burn you up with Global Warming for your pride and hubris.
For every interest out there, there's a certain number of people who get a little side-tracked and wander off the yellow-brick-road until they no longer quite see eye-to-eye with reality about what a "real life" is, and how to spend it.
We could all point to That One Guy anytime we want to dismiss a given group of people,...
I don't disagree, but Robertson isn't the occasional guy who follows you around with a Bible. He's a media figure with a TV show and an audience numbering in the high thousands, if not full-on millions. I'm not saying Robertson is a good example of Christian thought, but, as has been said before, I wish I saw more Christians having that Mr. Incredible vs. Incrediboy moment of "You are not affiliated with me!!"
I guess I'm saying that, whether or not anyone wants to dismiss Christians, Robertson deserves dissing and dismissing, frequently and in public, by "his own kind."
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And, beyond that, what possible reasoning could there be behind lumping atheists together as having anything in common with one another, beyond simply not believing in a deity? Their atheism is a lack of belief, not the presence of a massive set of core tenets of faith.
Most of us are guilty of seeing the world through our own prisms.
I've met plenty of religious people who view atheism as another option on the menu of religions.
They don't realise that, in the terms of that metaphor, atheism is choosing not to eat. Ever.
For a long time, I used to do the reverse: I perceived the religious as insincere and/or dupes. This was unfair and it came about because I viewed them through my own prism.
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I've met plenty of religious people who view atheism as another option on the menu of religions.
They don't realise that, in the terms of that metaphor, atheism is choosing not to eat. Ever.
Choosing not to choose is still a choice. Some people may lump atheists together because of the various atheist groups and churches (yes they exist!), still some may do it as a reaction to atheists lumping religious people all together. Christianity is incredibly varied in practice. Saying "Christian churches" need to denounce him is ignoring those who do and those who don't consider him worthy of acknowledgement. It could be compared to attacking a Star Wars RPG because they didn't defend "D&D" (which is all RPGs to people who don't play RPGs).
The stories are usually structured like...
DnD PLAYER GOES ON A HORRIFIC KILLING SPREE
and then they explain that the guy had some serious mental problems, partook of enough drugs that his body self-embalmed after he died, had a real doll of Bea Arthur dressed up as Eva Braun, subscribed to the Al-Qaeda newsletter, thought that the comets were going to crash into Jupiter hale-bopp style, had been writing diatribes against the Government of Brazil, and owned a printed copy of every book ever released in the 70s (one of which was the DnD Players Handbook).
So /obviously/ our talking heads conclude he was driven to madness by the tables of Gygax.
I do admit the first draft of this post also made me realize something.
...the monsters in DnD always seem to have lairs filled with bizarre, nonsensical garbage (bea arthur!) just like these yobbos tend to.
I think you just described Deadpool.
Ahahah...awesome topic.There was a public hearing once about DnD where avid defenders and religous nutcases came togheter to discuss the impact of the game. Magic was a major topic.
Heres a little excerpt:
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Crazy Jesus Lady:"Isn't it true that you perform magic rituals and cast spells while "playing" this "game"."
DnD Guy:"Well its nothing so serious, some characters cast spells yes, all the player does is saying what spell he casts and then usually rolls a dice to see if he succeeds.*gets his dice out* So look I could say I cast a spell at you now.*rolls dice*
Thats a two ,so my spell didn't succeed."
Crazy Jesus Lady:" Of course it didn't. Jesus was protecting me."
True Story:)
I protest the protesting.
I managed a video store when the first Potter flick hit the rental shelves. I had people who regularly rented Disney films filled with magic and monsters, as well as allowing their kids to watch really violent horror flicks, walk in the store to tell me I was going to hell for letting people rent Potter discs and vhs tapes.
This week Robertson also blamed the victims of the Oklahoma tornado disaster for the storm because "they didn't pray enough". I bet there's devil put aside for that man...
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"He who claims to know the mind of God
Is engaged in the Devil's work."
Oh, I know where it stems from. But the Bible also warns people against false prophets, which, with all the predictions he makes for elections, etc, qualifies him as such.... lol
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I remember staying home sick one day from school when I was 12, flipping through channels and landed on ol' PR ranting about Santa Claus. Not just complaining about how SC takes some of Christmas' focus away from Jesus, but full-blown, red-faced ranting about Santa and the evil, wickedness the jolly man in red is seeding into the minds of our children.
I just sat there, rolling my eyes, like "really man? all of the messed up stuff in the world, and Santa Claus is your biggest problem?"
Fast forward 20 years, and as a father of two children, around Christmas time, I now realize Santa Claus really IS the devil... to my wallet.
On topic; yeah, yeah. D&D destroys lives, but blood diamonds somehow are A-OK. Sure, sure.
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This week Robertson also blamed the victims of the Oklahoma tornado disaster for the storm because "they didn't pray enough". I bet there's devil put aside for that man...Pretty much standard Old Testament theology. If something bad happened to Israel it was because they'd broken the Covenant and become immoral or turned to other gods. The Lord punished them until they turned back.
The same must be true here.
Hrrrrg
"There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." - Luke 13.1-5
Or to summarize.. Bad things happen to everybody, don't ascribe moral failings to people who have horrible things befall them. We're all sinners, don't act like someone's a bigger sinner because something fell on him and not you.
Pat I fear is beginning to attempt to write The Gospel According to Pat, with that whole 'itching ears,' thing.
What bugs me about this recent development of Mr. Robertson's philosophy though is I'm Catholic, and folks like Pat insist we "don't read the bible," when he says stuff thats outright contradicted by it.
We should pray for the guy. I think he's in desperate need of it.