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Hello I play with a "friend" in a local PFS group, and I want to call him out on cheating, because everytime i play with him i never see him roll below a 15 on initiative, and everytime he rolls he always, always picks up his die (Regardless of what dice it is) and it looks like he turns it. I cannot stand people like that! We all fudge our rolls every once in a great while, but still
I'm not sure how to go about calling him out on this, because if i called him out on i he would probably cause a scene about it. Argh it's very frustrating.....
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Well, if he's having fun by cheating, then why are you wanting to ruin his fun? You're not one of those horrible GMs, are you?
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You don't call him on it. Thats not your responsibility. Tell your Game Master. Its his game, its his job and responsibility, let him deal with it.
Just tell the GM what you have seen. Let him make decide what to do.
(If you are the GM, just tell the player to stop. Preferably away from the entire group so as not to make a big deal out of it.)
Talk to your GM first, maybe. If the GM is concerned, he's in a better position to handle it.
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I had a player like this, and I simply instituted a rule that dice must remain on the table until I (the GM) have clearly seen the number displayed. Picking up a dice to "get a closer look at the number," in my mind disqualifies the number, and should force a reroll. It's a simple fix, that may actually irritate the person at first, but this game is fun even when the dice roll poorly. Sometimes you miss, sometimes the bad guys crit, it happens, it's part of the game, and it is supposed to be part of the fun.
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Well, if he's having fun by cheating, then why are you wanting to ruin his fun? You're not one of those horrible GMs, are you?
Because if he is cheating then it affects everyone at the table.
If he's fudging all of his rolls, then he is making himself artificially more powerful than he should be, which means he becomes more important in a fight. If he's more powerful in a fight, the GM has to up the encounter difficulty to compensate for him, which means everybody that isn't cheating is suddenly having a much harder time, and are themselves encouraged to cheat as well just to not get left behind.
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OP, if you aren't the GM, tell your GM. Especially if you know this guy cheats in multiple games.
If you are the GM, then simply institute a new rule for everybody. Any roll you don't personally see is assumed to be a 1.
Personally I have a gimmick I picked up many years ago to discourage fudgers in my games. I found a complete tube of giant plushie gaming dice, from a d4 to a d20, and they are all perfectly rollable, and each is bigger than a softball. The tube is several feet tall. I bring it and tell everybody "These are the cheater dice. Any time I suspect someone may be fudging their rolls, they spend the rest of the night using the cheater dice."
Nothing like the threat of a little public humiliation to keep people in line.
Don't call him out in public, even if you are the GM. Wait until after the game and talk to him privately. Tell him that his behavior and run of good luck is suspicious, and even if he is not cheating, anyone watching him might jump to the wrong conclusion.
Tell him 1 of 2 things is happening. Either he is cheating, which ruins the game because it removes the challenge and chance, and greatly reduces the ability if other players to participate (since a cheater can do it all with his "natural 20s"), or he looks like he is cheating, and other players will start to cheat because the think its OK or that they must to keep up with him. Either way, it has to stop.
Advise him that only rolls left on the table and witnessed by others "count", and that if he picks up or moves his dice before others see it, it is automatically a "1".
If you are the GM, then simply institute a new rule for everybody. Any roll you don't personally see is assumed to be a 1.
Man, that's both eloquent and simple. I wish I had thought of that. That will be my new rule starting today. Genius.
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I played with a guy back in Living Greyhawk who used teeny tiny dice, would roll them quickly behind his hand (his excuse was that he didn't want the dice to "go flying off the table") and then quickly pick it up and call out his roll. He had an inordinate amount of rolls between 15 and 19.
Luckily for me and not long after I started gaming with this guy, someone else got caught at a local con with loaded dice. I used that to implement a rule that everyone had to bring the dice I brought, and they were rather large, rather plainly marked dice.
Amazingly enough, he started rolling many more numbers below 10.
From a more Freudian standpoint, odds are he's probably fudging numbers because he's afraid to fail, perhaps there's a way to demonstrate to him that it can still be fun to act lower in the initiative? I know as a GM in my home game, when someone badly flubs a skill check I usually have rather comical results rather than catastrophic ones.
If you are the GM, then simply institute a new rule for everybody. Any roll you don't personally see is assumed to be a 1.Man, that's both eloquent and simple. I wish I had thought of that. That will be my new rule starting today. Genius.
Better hope your group has large dice. It would be a serious problem at my table (fairly large gaming group and thus large table fore the dm to look across). Most gaming dice cant be seen from across the table. DO you really want to make it so every roll requires the dm to get up walk around the table and look at the dice?
If you cant trust your players not to cheat there is a whole different problem involved at the table. I know pfs compounds the issue as you dont have direct control over it, but really, this should be dealt with in a way that does not hurt gameplay and punish everyone around the table.
To the OP, if you want to confront him, do it with evidence. Keep track and record all of his dice rolls for a session (not just the high ones) sometimes its just the high rolls that stick out in your memory and the low ones get forgotten. Write them all down for a session, and if they still feel fishy, then talk to the player about it.
Consider lending or buying him a set of clear printed dice. Many dice actually need to be picked up to be read because of elaborate paterns or unfortunate color schemes. If he has clearly and boldly labled dice he loses the escuse for picking up the die. Either way, handle this carefully because if he isnt cheating, he will feel persecuted. If he is cheating, he's gonna get defensive real quick.
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@Kolokotroni: Not a problem, my table is the size of an average dining table, and I have very good vision. Also, once I instituted the rule I mentioned, the player in question stopped picking up the dice, and the numbers he rolled were much more on par with the probabilities. I appreciate the constructive criticism though. :)
It's very important that if you do decided to discuss this issue with your friend, you do so privately. It is very rude to call someone out in public, and it shames them in front of everyone (and it's not your job or duty to shame your friends). If you do confront him publicly, I predict that he'll either stop going to PFS games, stop gaming with you, or stop being your friend. I've seen people quit their job because their boss decided to publicly confront them. It is very bad form.
Do it privately. Be polite. Be tactful. Be understanding. And most importantly, have evidence. Like Kolokotroni said, you may be simply forgetting the poor rolls and remembering the good rolls (do not take this offensively; it is very common for us humans to forget that which counters our beliefs. It is so common that is has a name: confirmation bias).
If you discover that he is cheating (or he is uncommonly lucky), and you want to talk to him about it, then make sure he knows that you're not confronting him, but rather you're protecting him against the GM. You simply don't want him to be caught by the other guys, and it's because you are his friend that you're telling him this. Remember that people cannot read minds, so he won't know any of that unless you say it. Make sure he knows that you understand his position (if he is cheating).
Offer him dice with clear numbers that can easily be read - something with large numbers or colors that contrast.
"Hey friend. I need to talk to you about something in PFS. I've noticed that you roll an abnormal amount of high numbers, and I'm worried that some harsh GM is going to call you out on it in public and embarrass you. I think that will happen, because you always pick up your dice before saying the number, which can make it look like you're fudging the dice in your favor. I'm not saying you are, just that it looks like it. If we keep the dice on the table, that will prevent anyone from suspecting anything, and I won't have to worry about my friend being called out and embarrassed for something he's not doing. I've also noticed that your dice aren't easy to read while on the table, so I bought you some better dice. Like I said, I'm not saying that you are fudging the dice, I just don't want to see my friend publicly embarrassed."
Notice that you didn't even use your evidence. You shouldn't need to use it in the conversation (and I would strongly suggest that you don't use it). The evidence is only used to make sure that you are not tricking yourself. Remember, confirmation bias is extremely common. Even people professionally trained to recognize it are still occasionally caught in it. It happens to us all.
Wait, just so we're clear: He never rolls lower than 15 on the d20, or he never has a result lower than 15? Your second post implies it might be the latter. Which doesn't necessarily mean he's cheating.
Better hope your group has large dice. It would be a serious problem at my table (fairly large gaming group and thus large table fore the dm to look across). Most gaming dice cant be seen from across the table. DO you really want to make it so every roll requires the dm to get up walk around the table and look at the dice?
No just make it policy (as GM) that players on either side of other players look at rolled dice results and verify. Just wait until the player announces his roll to verify if he's cheating or not. If all the players are doing this for each other's rolls, no one is singled out for cheating behavior.
We actually use multiple ways for players to help the GM do his job. When calculating damage to a monster, usually one of the players is writing it down, and they announce how much damage it currently has, so I the GM can keep things moving without having to do all the work.
I, as GM, can't see every roll - so my players help me with that, and that kind of cheating just doesn't exist in my game.
Strange that this poster comes in with such an inflammatory topic on his first and only posts & thread.
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As a "GM I just say I didn't see the dice result could you roll it again, sorry I wasn't paying close enough attention."
This puts the fault on me and doesn't put the player in the defensive by accusing them of cheating while at the same getting the player to stop.
Cheating is something that happens, especially with newer players. everyone wants to see their character do well, and wants to show off to their friends what they can do. i feel that eventually players come to the conclusion that the game isnt as fun when you ALWAYS win.
that said, most of the suggestions above are good ones, that you should certainly try if you feel it necessary. its also possible to punish them in others ways. a monster with intelligence greater than 3 is smart enough to decide who the major threats are in a party. as a gm since you notice that this player is consistantly rolling high and not only moving first but hitting well and damaging well have your monsters notice this, set your monsters initiative one below or two below the player you think its cheating, (well within a GM's rights impo, there are some places where "cheating" as a gm is acceptable) especially if they're first in initiative alot of the time, and when they attack, hit, and deal damage, GO TO TOWN ON THEM. they will eventually learn that going first and always hitting is NOT always a great idea, and if the roll fudging doesn't stop completely, it will at least balance out. unless they're stupid... in which case they will be needing lots and lots of revives and restorations, which limits their ability to purchase gear among other things. eventually they WILL learn how the game works, and will be better players because of it without you ever actually calling them out.
When I GM I insist on witnessing all of the dice rolls. That doesn't mean I necessarily see the number the comes up, but I pretend I can/do. Immediate snatching up of dice, cocked dice, dice falling on the floor are all good reasons for me to have my players reroll.
To the OP I would just say, why are you singling out initiative rolls? Are all of his other rolls (skills, attack, saves, etc.) on par but his initiative rolls stick out? If it's just the latter I wouldn't be as concerned about it. Maybe he/she is just getting lucky on initiative.
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If you are the GM, then simply institute a new rule for everybody. Any roll you don't personally see is assumed to be a 1.Man, that's both eloquent and simple. I wish I had thought of that. That will be my new rule starting today. Genius.
That is one of the rules I have kept in my back pocket in case I become worried about cheating. Fortunately, the players I have run for have all been good people.
My players generally treat 1's as comedic moments. It's a big laugh for everyone, even the player who rolled it.
The OP's situation is one reason why I would never play with strangers (and by that I mean people I don't know away from the table).
What I have seen at PFS. Was very similar situation. Several of us thought a guy was cheating. Rather than call him out on it that sesssion. The GM brought it up sideways the next time.
"Just to let you know since I have seen smilar situations where someone is cheating or people think someone is cheating. Please roll you dice on your turn, not several minutes before your turn then saving the good roll. And when you roll your dice it has to be in the open where others can and have time to see it."
The guy seemed to take the hint.
My players generally treat 1's as comedic moments. It's a big laugh for everyone, even the player who rolled it.
The OP's situation is one reason why I would never play with strangers (and by that I mean people I don't know away from the table).
in the last scenario i played my rogue friend and i had reverse gravity cast on us, sending us 140 feet straight up in the air. my response was to reach into my backpack pull out and drink a potion of fly, of which i keep 3 on me. as a ranged character being able to fly out of reach of a melee boss is AWESOME. the rogue flailed against his now frictionless surroundings helplessly. next turn the demon casts confusion on us. the rogue PASSES, and i roll a 4. next turn the rogue flails helplessly while i roll percentile and roll 100... ... ... so my inquisitor banes human on my friend... shoots 4 arrows (manyshot rapidshot innerative) that hit on a 5/7/9 and up... my friend has 58 total hp, when baning my minimum damage per arrow is 24... i roll a 4 a 19 and a 12. two hits no possible crit total of 48 damage (1d8+4d6 + 19 per arrow). my friend has 10 hp and is floating helplessly 140 feet off the ground, if the spell ends/is dispelled he will be killed, if i shoot him again he will probably be killed. next turn he flails i roll a 004 on the percentile... WOW... act normally, my only moves are to drop my bow, whip out a second potion of fly, and throw it at him as a weapon hoping he can catch it... free to drop the bow, move to pull the potion, standard to throw it... i roll my lucky d20 to hit the 5 foot square he is occupying, AC 5 with a plus 13 to hit... roll a 1.
... ... ...
... ... ...
i paid for his revival and restoration. xD
^^ That's a very elegant and frank way to handle it, actually. I find that bringing up past experiences--and thus focusing on past cheaters--is a great way to breach the subject respectfully.
The OP's situation is one reason why I would never play with strangers (and by that I mean people I don't know away from the table).
I have a cheater in my game (discussed below). He also openly dislikes low-leveled games and rarely roleplays except when it directly benefits his character. He's not a great match, but my game doubles as a place for friends to hang out. Sometimes the problem is that you aren't playing with strangers, and therefore can't easily ban people. :P
Strange that this poster comes in with such an inflammatory topic on his first and only posts & thread.
It's not a very inflammatory topic. You can tell because nobody is arguing. Much more inflammatory is accusing someone of being a troll without the slightest bit of evidence.
As a GM I just say "I didn't see the dice result could you roll it again, sorry I wasn't paying close enough attention."
This puts the fault on me and doesn't put the player in the defensive by accusing them of cheating while at the same getting the player to stop.
Careful. That can work once or twice, but other players might misunderstanding and think you're being incompetent and unfair.
I have a cheater in my group. He rolled three 18s on his character's abilities (and nothing lower than a 15) and tends to roll 20s when it's important. He's fudged his character sheet in the past and likes to claim he's talked something over with us already if we call him on, say, having items he never acquired in-game. I've been taking a break from GMing for a while, and planned to play the party tank. Sadly, I rolled slightly below average for HP--and this guy rolled 7d10 and never rolled below a '6'. Thanks to his also rolling extremely good abilities, his elf duelist easily manages to out-tank my poor sad barbarian--even with rage.
I actually called him out on the high abilities, based on advice on these boards, and asked him to reroll so he didn't "overshadow" the other players. This was when I was GMing, though. It's harder to take action when you're just a player.
I have several other players I sometimes worry about. A lot of them are new, and the temptation is strong. Now that I'm returning to GMing, I'll be instating a simple rule: any roll I don't see is a '2'. I don't want to make it a '1'--a '2' is enough to ward them off from making hidden rolls, in my opinion.
However, the way one justifies this is key. You don't want innocent players to feel like you don't trust them, and you don't want to actually accuse the non-innocent players. I used to cheat a lot a couple years ago, so I'll be using that. I'll say that I just don't want the temptation around, because it's very easy to forget the point of the game when your character's life or pride is on the line.
Divert the blame. Talk about past experiences. In short, try not to imply anyone at your game is currently cheating.
