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my view is, that both archetypes are legal together. Do you agree / disagree and why?
Alternate Class Features: "A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature."
The Sorcerer gets a class feature called Bloodline. This class feature grants you additional class skills, spells, bonus feats, arcana, and powers.
The Tattooed Sorcerer archetype modifies the Bloodline class feature by replacing her 1st-level bloodline power, the bloodline feat gained at 7th level, and the 9th-level bloodline power.
The Crossblooded archetype modifies the Bloodline class feature by granting two bloodlines worth of class skills, modifying her selection of bonus spells, modifying the list of bonus feats, granting two arcana, and modifying the bloodline powers.
Since these archetypes alternate class features alter the same class feature from the core class (Bloodline), they are not compatible.
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RAW : I'll agree with Grick (and his explanations).
RAI : no clues :)
imho :
looking at level 1: crossblood gives you an option for power level 1, tattooed, removes power level 1, so they are "compatible"
same goes for feat level 7 and power level 9.
nothing is replaced 2x or has mutually exclusive options; I'd accept it at my table... but this would be a house-rule.
Crossblooded does not modify the FEATURE, it modifies the list of possible selections.
It modifies the list of possible selections of a feature. And thus it modifies the feature itself.
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The point is: Crossblooded does not modify the FEATURE, it modifies the list of possible selections. Elsewise, the wildblooded bloodlines would hardly be compatible with any archetypes at all.
What makes you think it was meant to? The designers made Wild Blooded an Archtype rather than just additional bloodlines for a reason.
This question also applies to many other classes, e.g. Magus (Bladebound / Hexblade) and combinations that are commonly played and also legal according to herolabs.
Hero labs allows for a lot of questionably legal Archtype matches (for the very reason they are questionable). It is not a definative rules source. In the end it is up to your DM if it is legal.
my view is, that both archetypes are legal together. Do you agree / disagree and why?Alternate Class Features: "A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature."
The Sorcerer gets a class feature called Bloodline. This class feature grants you additional class skills, spells, bonus feats, arcana, and powers.
The Tattooed Sorcerer archetype modifies the Bloodline class feature by replacing her 1st-level bloodline power, the bloodline feat gained at 7th level, and the 9th-level bloodline power.
The Crossblooded archetype modifies the Bloodline class feature by granting two bloodlines worth of class skills, modifying her selection of bonus spells, modifying the list of bonus feats, granting two arcana, and modifying the bloodline powers.
Since these archetypes alternate class features alter the same class feature from the core class (Bloodline), they are not compatible.
Though this is most likely correct, it just seems so wrong. Why are Sorcerers relegated to ONE "ability" that encompasses all of their other abilities, but no other class is? Fighters get Bonus Feats at certain levels, they don't get a blanket special ability called "Bonus Feats" at level one that encompasses all of the bonus feats separately listed out in their class advancement chart. Sorcerers have "Bloodline Spell", "Bloodline Power", "Bloodline Feat" separately spelled out at different levels, but somehow if any of those abilities are modified, the entire "Bloodline" ability is what is considered changed.
/shrug
Fighters get Bonus Feats at certain levels, they don't get a blanket special ability called "Bonus Feats" at level one that encompasses all of the bonus feats separately listed out in their class advancement chart.
Are you sure?
Fighter Bonus Feats class feature.
Fighters get Bonus Feats at certain levels, they don't get a blanket special ability called "Bonus Feats" at level one that encompasses all of the bonus feats separately listed out in their class advancement chart.Are you sure?
Fighter Bonus Feats class feature.
Yet I have never seen anyone propose that a Fighter Archetype that "replaces the bonus feat gained at level 2" invalidates other Archetypes that replace a bonus feat gained at another level by calling out "Bonus Feats" as the Fighter "ability" that is modified. Again, it just seems wrong.
This would definitely not be legal for PFS, as there are definitely two features being modified. I (who am pretty restrictive) do think that it's a reasonable allowance in a home game.
"Changing the options" for a class feature can have huge balance issues. For instance:
Fictional Paladin Archetypes:
Mordo-slayer:
Judgementless Knight:
One reduces the benefit of Smite Evil, the other removes it entirely. That double-counts your tradeoffs with other class features.
Edit: And what ShadowcatX said.
According to James Jacobs (admittedly not a rules guy, but the only developer I've seen chime in on the issue), you can have different archetypes altering different specific bardic performances.
Individual performance types are separate class features, but Bardic Performance is also a class feature.
You can have an archetype swap out specific performances, or you can have one swap out the entire thing. Depends on the archetype.
And yes, if you have two archetypes that modify different performances but don't overlap, you can indeed take both archetypes, provided that the two archetypes aren't oppositional in some flavor way that makes the GM unhappy to see them mixed.
Based on that precedent, I would say that you could stack archetypes that replace/alter specific bloodline powers, as long as they don't affect the same powers.
Does the Wildblooded archetype also prevent me from taking Tattooed Sorcerer? It changes my bloodline arcana, in that it changes what bloodlines are available.
I don't think Wildblooded and Crossblooded should count as archeypes in the traditional sense--everyone gets a bloodline, and these options just determine what your bloodline can be--one of the mutations, or a combination of two others, respectively. Archetypes would then be applied, which would modify the bloodline powers you already have.
Also, wouldn't this ruling prevent you from combining both Wildblooded and Crossblooded? And then would be the point of being an Empyreal-blooded Dwarf if you can't also combine it with Stone?
Also, wouldn't this ruling prevent you from combining both Wildblooded and Crossblooded?
Yes. And explicitly so in PFS.
Also, wouldn't this ruling prevent you from combining both Wildblooded and Crossblooded?Yes. And explicitly so in PFS.
Well crap.
Does the Wildblooded archetype also prevent me from taking Tattooed Sorcerer?
I missed this one earlier, sorry.
Alternate Class Features: "A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature."
The Sorcerer gets a class feature called Bloodline. This class feature grants you additional class skills, spells, bonus feats, arcana, and powers.
The Tattooed Sorcerer archetype modifies the Bloodline class feature by replacing her 1st-level bloodline power, the bloodline feat gained at 7th level, and the 9th-level bloodline power.
The Wildblooded archetype modifies the Bloodline class feature by replacing the bloodline arcana and one or more bloodline powers.
Since these archetypes alternate class features alter the same class feature from the core class (Bloodline), they are not compatible.
And then would be the point of being an Empyreal-blooded Dwarf if you can't also combine it with Stone?
What is Stone?
What is Stone?
I was thinking of the Oracle mystery. I meant Elemental (Earth). In my defense, they're both improved by the Dwarven racial trait "Stonesinger."
I meant Elemental (Earth).
Ah, in that case, on the off-chance the question wasn't rhetorical:
And then would be the point of being an Empyreal-blooded Dwarf if you can't also combine it with Elemental (Earth)?
The point is probably because you wanted your dwarf to be more celestial than elemental, or you really wanted to use Wisdom instead of Charisma. Or both.
I would probably let wildblooded/crossblooded mix as a house rule, since I'm not prone to nosebleeds.
James,
Is it possible to create a Crossblooded Sorcerer with one or two Wildblooded Bloodlines?
Why would you want to? To give your poor GM a heart attack or a nosebleed?
In any case, since both of those are archetypes... you can if what the archetype replaces from the base class doesn't overlap. In this case, you probably could combine the two, since a wildblooded archetype changes the bloodline itself, and the crossblooded archetype doesn't do much that actually affects its bloodlines apart from the fact that it combines two of them.
But I have to wonder if this isn't the Pathfinder equivalent of ordering a chocolate fudge sunday and then topping it with candy bars, jelly beans, chocolate chips, gumdrops, skittles, maple syrup, circus peanuts, and powdered sugar. Just because you CAN do a thing doesn't mean you SHOULD. :-)
Standard disclaimers apply.
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Since I think that this could potentially use clarification in an FAQ or errata, how could this exact question be succinctly stated?
I'm thinking something along the lines of:
For purposes of determining valid archetype pairings, what is a 'class feature' in regards to determining replacement or alteration - the overall heading under which numerous powers might fall, or the individual abilities under that heading?
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From a house rule standpoint, I would allow pairing of archetypes as long as they do not call out the same individual ability. As a (somewhat) complex example: Take the Wildblooded Sage and the Tattooed Sorcerer archetypes. The Wildblooded Sage specifically replaces the first-level Arcane bloodline power Arcane Bond. The Tattooed Servant replaces the first-level Arcane bloodline power; it does not call out a specific power, only that a certain bloodline 'slot' is replaced. I would probably allow this. Now, if the Tattooed Servant specifically called out that it ALSO replaced Arcane Bond, then I would not.
Ah, in that case, on the off-chance the question wasn't rhetorical:
And then would be the point of being an Empyreal-blooded Dwarf if you can't also combine it with Elemental (Earth)?The point is probably because you wanted your dwarf to be more celestial than elemental, or you really wanted to use Wisdom instead of Charisma. Or both.
I would probably let wildblooded/crossblooded mix as a house rule, since I'm not prone to nosebleeds.
It was mostly flippant. (But yeah, I wanted to use Wisdom--because Dwarves get a penalty to Charisma and a bonus to Wisdom, so it just seems logical.)
I do see why by RAW these can't mix. So I had to scrap an upcoming PFS character concept. Alas. But I do also think they could mix, if a GM let them, so I'm with you on the houserule idea.