Hi, I've been reading a bit about casting divine spells and using a shield/weapon. I am actually having a debate with some of my friends and I would like to be sure about some things:
1- When casting a spell, a cleric need to hold his holy symbol in one hand, right? May he use that hand to make somatic component or must he use another hand?
2- Altough the frind I am arguing with uses a buckler to protect himself (which leaves him a free hand for somatic/DF component), I have been reading that you can cast a spell using a light shield by releasing the handle (since the description says you can carry items in the shield hand, I kind of understand since the hand is more free then with the heavy shield).
3 - Can a shield be a holy symbol or is it only a Holy Vindicator ability?
Thanks a lot
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1) Only ones that require a Divine focus(DF), and using both it and the somatic components, are considered part of the same action, which only requires one free hand.
2) There is the Channel Foci Sanctified Shield, that serve as a Holy Symbol, and more.
3) See above.
1) The holy symbol needs to be displayed prominently to be used as far as I've read. It could be on a necklace worn outside the clothes/armor, mounted on a shield or helmet, or even a tatoo (UE for that one). Given that, I'd say you can have your DF out without using hands depending on which symbol you have.
2) If you release your 'shield' you lose its AC bonus, not sure where the question is on this.
3) Read 1, the holy vindicator ability has nothing to do with your question if you read it.
But even though a cleric has a sanctified shield, he would require another (free) hand because his shield hand is occupied by the shield and letting it go to make somatic components would be like droping the focus no?
Light sheilds have a free hand, they can manipulate objects but not weild weapons.
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2- Altough the frind I am arguing with uses a buckler to protect himself (which leaves him a free hand for somatic/DF component), I have been reading that you can cast a spell using a light shield by releasing the handle (since the description says you can carry items in the shield hand, I kind of understand since the hand is more free then with the heavy shield).
Actually that is a simplification. Your shield hand is occupied and a light shield hamper your movement enough that you can't cast with that hand, but
1) "A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.", so you can carry items in that hand without losing the AC bonus2) you can swap a item between your hands as a free action and you can do free action a reasonable number of times, so you can keep your weapon in the light shield hand (without attacking with it) when casting and then re grip it in your weapon arm, ready for use;
3) using the material components of a spell (divine focuses included) use the same hand that you use to cast the spell, so you only need one hand for casting.
Note that 3) is debatable a the magic section say "Components A spell's components explain what you must do or possess to cast the spell."
Possess is not manipulate, so saying that you simply need to have the components on your person is a valid interpretation.
That clash with the grappling rules where they say "Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand." so most people use the interpretation that you need to manipulate the components with your hand while casting.
2) If you release your 'shield' you lose its AC bonus, not sure where the question is on this.releasing your grip is a free action. re-gripping it is a free action. let go, use free hand for somatic components, finish casting spell, re-grip, retain shield bonus to AC. or is there something I'm missing?
Releasing your grip and re-gripping may be free actions but what are you doing with the holy symbol? Dropping it?
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What is a free hand?
There's a FAQ Request thread here for a similar question.
At any rate, there are a few things in that thread that imply a free hand means a hand that is not holding anything, rather than a hand that is not doing anything.
1- When casting a spell, a cleric need to hold his holy symbol in one hand, right? May he use that hand to make somatic component or must he use another hand?
Casting Spells: "To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any)."
I've never seen anyone argue that you can't use the same hand to perform the somatic components and also manipulate the material components or focus.
2- Altough the frind I am arguing with uses a buckler to protect himself (which leaves him a free hand for somatic/DF component), I have been reading that you can cast a spell using a light shield by releasing the handle (since the description says you can carry items in the shield hand, I kind of understand since the hand is more free then with the heavy shield).
Buckler: "You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn."
James Jacobs (Creative Director): "A light shield allows spellcasters to use their hand to cast, and lets you carry an object; the only thing it actually prevents is wielding a weapon."
James Jacobs (Creative Director): "Switching a held object from one hand to the other doesn't require an action, so the end result is the same whether or not you use the light shield hand to lay on hands or your weapon hand after switching your weapon to the off hand, and then back to your weapon hand. The fact that allowing you to use your light shield hand to do so without so many fiddly steps is why I'd say it's fine to let it work that way."
So if he uses his buckler hand to cast, he loses the AC bonus. If he switches whatever is in his other hand to his buckler hand, he can cast with that other hand, then switch back, and keep his AC bonus.
Switching hands is officially a free action.
3 - Can a shield be a holy symbol or is it only a Holy Vindicator ability?
Divine Focus (DF): "A divine focus component is an item of spiritual significance. The divine focus for a cleric or a paladin is a holy symbol appropriate to the character's faith. The divine focus for a druid or a ranger is a sprig of holly, or some other sacred plant."
There are ways to use other things as a divine focus for casting spells.
The Create Reliquary Arms and Shields feat allows a crafter to make a weapon, armor, or shield into a holy (or unholy) symbol divine focus of the creator's deity.
A holy symbol tattoo works as a holy symbol, as does a Cassock of the Clergy.
Releasing your grip and re-gripping may be free actions but what are you doing with the holy symbol? Dropping it?
Sure, why not. It's presumably on a cord around your neck, or in a spell component pouch or something. It's a free action to prepare it, and you don't even have to present it since you're not channeling. Might as well keep one in your spell component pouch and you can manipulate it the same hand-wavy way you manipulate the live spider or tiny birdcage or whatever.
Releasing your grip and re-gripping may be free actions but what are you doing with the holy symbol? Dropping it?Sure, why not. It's presumably on a cord around your neck, or in a spell component pouch or something. It's a free action to prepare it, and you don't even have to present it since you're not channeling. Might as well keep one in your spell component pouch and you can manipulate it the same hand-wavy way you manipulate the live spider or tiny birdcage or whatever.
Presumably doesn't aways mean it is, for certain situations it may be stowed away (which requires a move action to pull out) and then you have to put it away (having used a standard action and move action) leaving dropping it as the only option that round to regain the AC bonus.
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Presumably doesn't aways mean it is, for certain situations it may be stowed away (which requires a move action to pull out) and then you have to put it away (having used a standard action and move action) leaving dropping it as the only option that round to regain the AC bonus.Releasing your grip and re-gripping may be free actions but what are you doing with the holy symbol? Dropping it?Sure, why not. It's presumably on a cord around your neck, or in a spell component pouch or something. It's a free action to prepare it, and you don't even have to present it since you're not channeling. Might as well keep one in your spell component pouch and you can manipulate it the same hand-wavy way you manipulate the live spider or tiny birdcage or whatever.
If you need you holy symbol to do your stuff, why would you store it out of easy reach?
It'd be like a fighter stowing his sword in a suitcase then wondering why the Quick Draw feat wasn't up to snuff.
Presumably doesn't aways mean it is, for certain situations it may be stowed away (which requires a move action to pull out) and then you have to put it away (having used a standard action and move action) leaving dropping it as the only option that round to regain the AC bonus.Releasing your grip and re-gripping may be free actions but what are you doing with the holy symbol? Dropping it?Sure, why not. It's presumably on a cord around your neck, or in a spell component pouch or something. It's a free action to prepare it, and you don't even have to present it since you're not channeling. Might as well keep one in your spell component pouch and you can manipulate it the same hand-wavy way you manipulate the live spider or tiny birdcage or whatever.
If you need you holy symbol to do your stuff, why would you store it out of easy reach?
It'd be like a fighter stowing his sword in a suitcase then wondering why the Quick Draw feat wasn't up to snuff.
Stealth, disguise, going to a ball and not having something that could be regarded as a weapon out in the open... I guess actual role playing situations instead of in a vaccuum theories.
I doubt a holy symbol would be commonly regarded as a weapon. You could probably hide it on a necklace under clothes, in most cases.
I doubt a holy symbol would be commonly regarded as a weapon. You could probably hide it on a necklace under clothes, in most cases.
In a world where 'magic' is common place (IE the default setting of PFRPG) a holy symbol could absolutely be considered a weapon, as would a spell component pouch. This where skills like sleight of hand come into play, hiding things you as a class would not want to be without.
We'll agree to disagree on the subject.
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Whenever I play a cleric, I usually try to figure out some way of working my holy symbol into my weapon. Sometimes that helps me decide what weapon to pick.
Presumably doesn't aways mean it is, for certain situations it may be stowed away (which requires a move action to pull out) and then you have to put it away (having used a standard action and move action) leaving dropping it as the only option that round to regain the AC bonus.
Yes, if you've gone out of your way to make your spell components inaccessible, then they're going to be inaccessible. That's certainly not the default assumption.
You seem to think that you either A) can hold an item with your heavy shield hand, or B) cannot hold an item with a light shield or buckler hand. Neither of which are true.
You can't have a hand free with a heavy shield. You would have to unstrap and drop it as a move action.
With a light shield or buckler, you can carry an item in your shield hand, that doesn't remove the AC bonus, or hamper you in any way.
Whenever I play a cleric, I usually try to figure out some way of working my holy symbol into my weapon. Sometimes that helps me decide what weapon to pick.
Personally, I think the favored weapon of your deity should be a holy symbol. And you should be able to perform somatic components with it. This would let a cleric use a heavy shield and a weapon without requiring weapon-cord goofiness.
Whenever I play a cleric, I usually try to figure out some way of working my holy symbol into my weapon. Sometimes that helps me decide what weapon to pick.
If I stick my sword through a rock, does it count as a holy symbol of Gorum? : D
Only if you pass the STR check required to do so : )
You seem to think that you either A) can hold an item with your heavy shield hand, or B) cannot hold an item with a light shield or buckler hand. Neither of which are true.You can't have a hand free with a heavy shield. You would have to unstrap and drop it as a move action.
With a light shield or buckler, you can carry an item in your shield hand, that doesn't remove the AC bonus, or hamper you in any way.
Whenever I play a cleric, I usually try to figure out some way of working my holy symbol into my weapon. Sometimes that helps me decide what weapon to pick.Personally, I think the favored weapon of your deity should be a holy symbol. And you should be able to perform somatic components with it. This would let a cleric use a heavy shield and a weapon without requiring weapon-cord goofiness.
I actually said nothing of the sort, what I did say was when holding your holy symbol (as in the default item you get from the equipment lists), what do you do with it once you have it in hand using a buckler or shield which allows you to manage another item when worn.
If we're talking 'default' rules, holy symbols have no necklace or way of being attached or easily accessed listed to be included with the item (which seems to be what others incorrectly are inferring to be the 'default' assumption). You get an item that must be stored just like any other, which was one of the points of my question if we are talking basic 'core' rules and non custom equipment. Once you have the holy symbol out, what are you doing with it? Your options with the 'standard' holy symbol are to store it or drop it in such a situation.
As for the shield/buckler, being able to hold something in your hand and using the shield while using what is in your hand are two completely different things. If they weren't you would be able to maintain the shield bonus while two weapon fighting or when you use that hand to make somatic gestures for a spell. But that is getting off topic.
I actually said nothing of the sort
My apologies for misunderstanding. I'll start over at the beginning.
1) The holy symbol needs to be displayed prominently to be used as far as I've read.
Only if you're presenting it to turn a vampire or something. To use it as a divine focus to cast a spell, you just need to be able to manipulate it, just like all the other components in your spell component pouch.
It could be on a necklace worn outside the clothes/armor
You seem to have changed your mind on this point.
2) If you release your 'shield' you lose its AC bonus, not sure where the question is on this.
The question is if by "release" you mean "unstrap and drop."
If you unstrap and drop the shield (Move action) then yes, you lose the shield's AC bonus.
But if you're holding an item, like a holy symbol, that doesn't cause you to lose your AC bonus. If you take an action that causes you to lose your AC bonus, then it really doesn't matter if you have something in that hand or not, freeing up the hand doesn't cause you to regain the AC bonus.
what I did say was when holding your holy symbol (as in the default item you get from the equipment lists), what do you do with it once you have it in hand using a buckler or shield which allows you to manage another item when worn.
Are you trying to ask what to do with a holy symbol that you're (inexplicably) carrying in your shield hand?
Do whatever you want with it, just like any other item you're carrying in that hand.
As for the shield/buckler, being able to hold something in your hand and using the shield while using what is in your hand are two completely different things.
There's only two things that cause you to lose the AC bonus from your buckler: using a weapon in that hand, or using that hand to cast a spell with somatic components.
Using your buckler hand to show a vampire your holy symbol, or to channel energy, or just to feel the reassuring wood grain texture doesn't cause you to lose your buckler AC bonus.
Whether or not you drop or stow the holy symbol has no bearing on whether or not you get the AC bonus from a buckler (or light shield).
If you use that hand to do something that causes you to lose the shield AC bonus, then you lose your shield AC bonus.
I think you may have been confused by Martiln's post. I believe he was suggesting using a free action to switch whatever is in your non-shield hand into your shield hand, then casting with the free hand, then switching back. For example, a cleric with a buckler on one hand, and a heavy mace in the other. He can use a free action to hold his mace in his buckler hand. He's now got one hand with a buckler and a mace, and his other hand is free. He has not lost his buckler's AC bonus, because he has not attacked with the mace. Now he casts a spell, using his free hand. He still has his buckler's AC bonus, because he didn't use his buckler hand to cast, he used his other one. Now, after his spell is complete, he uses a free action to switch his mace back into his free hand. He's now got a buckler on one hand, and a mace in the other. And he still has his buckler's AC bonus. The exact same thing works with a light shield.