I've noticed an interesting phenomenon in my gaming group. My players don’t work as a team. Instead of being a squad with a common goal, they’re more like a group of individuals who travel together and have the same goal. They often talk about who is the “MVP”. Who killed the most enemies? Who did the most damage? They aren’t happy unless they’re outdoing each other.
This has led to curious behavior by PCs. I’ve seen them purposely head off alone in order to find some enemies they can defeat without help. I’ve seen them split off and attack separate enemies on purpose, in order to, I don’t know maximize their coolness?
My players tend to think about how to improve their characters first and foremost, and always offensively over defensively. Money gets spent on battle items first, with only the barest possible spent on non-combat items.
They seem to really like things this way, and I don’t have much problem in it either, except sometimes it leads to troublesome results. For example, enemies might stay in the fight longer than they otherwise would if the team would focus fire. Instead, they can stay in the fight an extra round or two.
This has led to at least one TPK where a large group of weaker enemies defeated them because they were each whittling down their own “group” instead of annihilating an enemy a round which was within their reach, and would have limited the amount of attacks coming back their way each round.
Like I said, it’s not really a problem though (usually), it just makes me cock my head. Has anyone ever experienced this before? What are your groups like?
I've played with some people like you describe and I'm normally fine with it because dealing damage to the enemy still helps the team... I start getting annoyed when people won't stop doing that to help somewhere else if necessary. One game had this guy playing a cleric and the party was facing a bunch of baby undead plus a few real ones; half the party went unconscious and the others (besides the cleric) were almost down. So the cleric channeled to get all his teammates back into the fight, right? No. Instead he channeled to pop some baby undead (and barely affect the real threats) and then looked around smiling and said, "That's how you cleric."
Normally the groups I play in have decent teamwork; people move to accommodate flanking, the highest priority enemy gets taken first, and the right buffs go to the right people. Our DM was amazed at one point because the low level Summoner chose to exclude himself from Haste to give it to another martial character. I always assumed that was common sense, but I guess not.
I remember debating with the same DM about character optimization... he seemed to think that because people optimized for killing things that they weren't team players, but then again he's also sometimes prone to thinking that high optimization and roleplaying are mutually exclusive.
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My group tends to work as a team. They don't really care about who kills the most as long as they are getting it done. They are far more worried about RP elements. Becoming a mayor/baron/king, getting the girl, figuring out clever ways to bypass traps/puzzles.
One entertaining story I have is about the bonds we tend to develop. We had made it to 5th level in a recent game. Everyone had developed contacts and SOs in a town and we were working our way slowly to becoming town heroes. We were sent off to investigate some strange disappearances out yonder.
We found an old fort. While exploring we were attacked by an invisible bastard. The game session ended there. The next session I had to work so I gave them my character sheet. Turns out things got bad. Some nasty witch like creature started charming the PCs and luring them into their deaths. The PCs managed to hide in a cellar with an exit.
The paladin decided she was not going to leave a man behind. She walked nback into the fort got charmed. The Druid was like "I gotta go save her we are too close now." He got charmed. The baddie started killing them off one by one. I get an email at work from the GM. "All the PCs are walking into their deaths. "They now say your character is going in after them." I was like oh hell no cast invis and GTFO! Avoided a TPK just narrowly.
Anyways the players get almost suicidal when it comes to keeping each other up. If anything we could use a little less selfless characters in the group. I guess that's where I come in :)
Most of my groups have been pretty awful and couldn't save eachothers lives if they try, in fact some are lucky they didn't outright kill themselves. Different groups are different I guess.
My last party had a player who thought it would be okay to play a character who lied about everything, even to the party. He didn't mean to be at all, but it was extremely antagonistic of him and he was always pushing the group to do his thing. I left that one for 101 reasons and he was one of them.
The one before that I got crit for trying to protect kobold babies. The party gunslinger wanted to kill them all, I took the shot and I was very lucky he rolled low. I left the week after, and apparently things got worse morality wise. Traveling murder hobos I think is the term.
The one before that; I left because the GM let a Necromancer in the party who obviousy had plans to kill us all, and had chosen to be a wizard just to step on my toes. I had to kill his last character becuase he tried to perform a coup and killed another player. The DM was apathetic about my complaints. It was a joke campaign anyway.
The one before that was one where the DM's first plan for anything was "lets split the party!" so after we had 13 people come and go at random we had a ridiculous number of one off games and I rarely if ever played with the people I was socializing with. Also, a ridiculous number of unfinished storylines.
I would consider myself lucky to have a group where teamwork exist at this point in my life.
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Most of my groups have been pretty awful and couldn't save eachothers lives if they try, in fact some are lucky they didn't outright kill themselves. Different groups are different I guess.
** spoiler omitted **
I would consider myself lucky to have a group where teamwork exist at this point in my life.
hmm that's an unfortunate run of bad luck. Ever think about screening games through meetup or PFS?
Instead he channeled to pop some baby undead (and barely affect the real threats) and then looked around smiling and said, "That's how you cleric."
Lol. Sounds like some people I know.
After the TPK I mentioned, I thought that might strengthen their inclination to actually work together. It did. Slightly. For one session.
The parties I've played in tend to vary. We get a little competitive sometimes, but it's more like Gimli vs. Legolas than Stark vs. Lannister.
I personally hate splitting up the party and LOVE working together to complete a goal, or even just win a fight. For example, one time were like 5th or 6th level and dealing with a stone golem. So the cleric cast stone shape to make a ramp by a cliff, the bard cast grease on the ramp, the wizard was bait, the paladin bull rushed the stone golem, and my scout lassoed the golem, jumped off the cliff, drank a potion of enlarge person and used a one-use featherfall item to survive.
The paladin decided she was not going to leave a man behind. She walked nback into the fort got charmed. The Druid was like "I gotta go save her we are too close now." He got charmed. The baddie started killing them off one by one. I get an email at work from the GM. "All the PCs are walking into their deaths. "They now say your character is going in after them." I was like oh hell no cast invis and GTFO! Avoided a TPK just narrowly.
That reminds me of the normal thing that happens when someone has to play someone else's character briefly with my group:
Not-the-PC's-player: "-insert name- the -insert class- takes off all his magical expensive gear and looks back at the party 'you guys go on ahead, I'll jump into this beasts mouth to distract it!'"
DM: "Oh shut the hell up and just roll his attack for him."
hmm that's an unfortunate run of bad luck. Ever think about screening games through meetup or PFS?Most of my groups have been pretty awful and couldn't save eachothers lives if they try, in fact some are lucky they didn't outright kill themselves. Different groups are different I guess.
** spoiler omitted **
I would consider myself lucky to have a group where teamwork exist at this point in my life.
Never used meetup and I'm not keen on DMing. I can DM, but its just never been my gig to be the guy who creates the world. I love being a player though. I'm still recovering from that last group a month ago, I swear I post about the dozens of 'playstyle differences' they had.
PFS I've actually played quiet a bit. I used to do it once or twice a week.It has been hit and miss. Thats sort of the nature of PFS unfortunately. PUGing is bound to have its issues.
My 2nd to last group had a bard who did nothing but insult other players as part of his satire. He was trying to roleplay a racist, but its extra hard to help out the guy who's calling you a squinty eyed barbarian if you tell him your from Tian. His excuse was that he smoked too much flayleaf.
I have a lot of stories about PFS, but those still stay on subject with the whole teamwork gig.
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hmm that's an unfortunate run of bad luck. Ever think about screening games through meetup or PFS?Most of my groups have been pretty awful and couldn't save eachothers lives if they try, in fact some are lucky they didn't outright kill themselves. Different groups are different I guess.
** spoiler omitted **
I would consider myself lucky to have a group where teamwork exist at this point in my life.
Never used meetup and I'm not keen on DMing. I can DM, but its just never been my gig to be the guy who creates the world. I love being a player though. I'm still recovering from that last group a month ago, I swear I post about the dozens of 'playstyle differences' they had.
PFS I've actually played quiet a bit. I used to do it once or twice a week.It has been hit and miss. Thats sort of the nature of PFS unfortunately. PUGing is bound to have its issues.
** spoiler omitted **
Yeah PFS isn't my ideal gaming format but an awesome way to farm for home games. Lets you get a finger on the local gaming community. You learn who to avoid and find the guys your are compatible with.
Since we are telling PFS stories I gotta talk about my favorite avoid at all costs guy. Guy sits down says hes playing a female rogue elf no biggie. Then as play starts we quickly realize his strategy is to pretend to be drunk and be real slutty.
GM: "Guys missing teeth and smells bad"
PC: "umm yeah my character will make out with him"
That was to find directions to a dock that we could have found by looking at signs.
So we get on this boat and start searching it. BBEG shows up on top and we get the drop on him. Rogue decides instead of running up top like the rest of us he was going to use his grapple and rope to climb the side sneaky style. Spent the entire combat trying to hook and climb side of ship. Meanwhile, we get our ass kicked by the BBEG and almost TPK no help from McSlutty the rogue.
Guy emnals me about once every three months. "Hey man got a spot in your game I need a regular group." Yeap, I dodged a bullet there guy cant stay in a game to save his life.
Oddly enough I met my last homegame at the local PFS group. They seemed nice. Seem being a keyword. Turns out there was a lot of DMPCing by the GM and his girlfriend, and that outside of the modules they were very restrictive and more focused on making things dramatic for the character(burning spellbooks, breaking weapons, killing your family etc.) These things that don't come up in PFS.
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My group tends to rolepla their character. Chaotic characters are usually individualists and lawfuls are team players. But not always, for example I have a lawful evil wizard that wont prpare buff spells unless hes reminded by another pc that he needs "enlarge or something other (ill prepare debuffs and arew control spells instead) In other instances we have warriors using aid another to bull rush ennemies over cliffs. Other times, we have the kind of characters that keep achievement list. Really depends on character personality. I remember we once split the party over mission objectives because the pcs had different goals. We reunited later but still, intersting campaign
My group is a very role-playing heavy group. They are competitive with each other, but they compete about who can out-do the other in a role playing way. This means lots of in-game character jokes, speeches, hitting on royals, swearing vengeance on our enemies, debating their alignment based world views against the other PC's, and yes, sometimes bragging about kill count, though it's usually in character. I think once a couple players start trying to outdo others in any way, it begins an escalation. People that play games tend to be somewhat competitive.
I've played in some groups where it's all dungeon crawl, fighting and mechanics with a ton of min-maxing/power gamer builds. These are the ones where I tend to see more meta-gaming decisions (lying to the other players for treasure. Trying to "steal kills", etc.)
I would say in the dungeon crawl style games we play that are light on role playing and plot, the character who is consistently doing the least amount of damage tends to start complaining and these feed into that. Pathfinder isn't great for this style if you feel all classes should do the same amount of damage in all circumstances (I don't.) We try to play 4th Ed. if we want that, or as we call it, Hero Quest 2.0.
My group is almost always pretty good about that, with a couple of occasional exceptions, including my eldest daughter, whom I love dearly, who has been know to fireball other party members with the rationale that "I figured you'd make your save and they wouldn't." Sigh. What did I do wrong as a parent?
Seriously, we have pretty strong peer pressure to be a team player. Of course they also know, especially when I'm GMing, that if they aren't on top of their game and working as a team, they are likely to die horribly, kicking on the end of a spear.
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We generally tend to work pretty well together in our group.
Though I get pissed at the Barbarian sometimes. 90% of the time he's cool but the other 10% he goes all "Rip and tear!" on me.
I've played two characters in this adventure, a Monk and a Sorcerer. The one time he really made me mad was when I grappled this guy we were having trouble even hitting, and I was like "hold on, I'll pin him next round, we can tie him up, and then coup de grace this a*%%**+", he's like "Well he's grappled, I can hit him!" and I'm like "But there's a 50% chance you'll hit ME!" and he's like "I like those odds." and then he crits and almost kills me.
And then he tries again next round and I'm thinkin' if I die my ghost would scream "You chopped me in half, you teamkilling f~+*tard!" in his ear until the end of time. Thankfully it didn't come to that.
Only problem I've had with him as the Sorcerer is the "Hold on before you run up there, I wanna Fireball this group" and he goes "I've got a bunch of HP, I can take it. LEEEEEEEEEEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOY-"
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Only problem I've had with him as the Sorcerer is the "Hold on before you run up there, I wanna Fireball this group" and he goes "I've got a bunch of HP, I can take it. LEEEEEEEEEEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOY-"
Maybe that guy should be playing in the same group with my daughter. Sounds like they would work well together.
My group has differing views on roleplaying and optimization. The group is pretty good, but one player has an unusual view of roleplaying. He played a druid for awhile, and his druid would always wildshape into a cat and act like a cat, not taking part in combat. He thinks that is the highest form of roleplaying. Unfortunately, he is good friends with the guy whose house we play at, so we are stuck with him.
Selfish combat oriented players who try to hog glory in combat would be a huge improvement over the guy who wants to spend combat playing with a ball of yarn.
HILARIOUS! (I can see the annoyance factor but still you gotta admit it will prolly be one of your all-time fav "I remember this one game..." stories.)
I did that once! That was pretty fun. Stopped when the girl playing the halfling decided to start treating me like a house pet and mount. I just thought it would be fun to joke around on my druid for a bit. Decided not to stick to the cat form after that. I can imagine it would be pretty awful if cat form turned out to be his only form.
We used to play with a woman who was really into cats, too. She usually played catfolk and her character ate really gross things, like rancid herring and mouse soup--with extra tails!
In another group, we had a guy play a pregnant were-dolphin monk/cleric that refused to fight in a very combat-heavy dungeoneering campaign. It was very annoying. We had a lot of role-playing in that campaign, too, but if you're not gonna fight, don't join a fighting group. It doesn't make sense to role-play unrealistically....you're not really playing a role "correctly" (I know, I know, there's no wrong way to role play....) if your character is acting in such a way that totally ignores the circumstances it is experiencing....
We used to play with a woman who was really into cats, too. She usually played catfolk and her character ate really gross things, like rancid herring and mouse soup--with extra tails!
I've been around anime, otaku, and furries for like ever. Oddly enough thats not that strange to me and I've seen far far worse. Food can be a great roleplaying experience though. You can gross out players or show off something fancy, even prestidigitate for some fun. Last time I went to an inn ingame I ended up unwittingly helping the monk steal the recipes from the tavern.
a guy play a pregnant were-dolphin monk/cleric
wat.
Never mind the rest of that mess, just... wat. I mean thats all a mess, but these words just don't sound like they could go together.
I meant played.
Past tense.
;-)
It WAS a mess, too. If you're playing a monk/cleric, and you're not going to fight, at least heal. Or cast some buffs, or divine the future, or do some battlefield control. Or max out Diplomacy or Sense Motive or Listen/Spot (this was 3.5). Or grab a longspear and Aid Another and/or flank. Or pick up a crossbow and shoot something.
Well the fact it was supposed to be past tense doesn't really change my opinion of a man wanting to be a multiclass pregnant were-dolphin.
My last homegame had a guy who wanted to play a cleric. He didn't really want to play that much though, becuase he didn't build his own character and he was a healer cleric who liked to save his channels and was mostly there for the roleplay. With his almighty 4 skillpoints per level he claimed to be party face. One of the reasons I left was becuase it was okay for him to give half hour speeches where he insulted people but expected to get a bonus on diplomacy for his good way with words(Which the DM gave him, becuase calling someone an idiot or child helps I guess...?). After having 2 hours of facetime devouted to him I... sort of felt left out for the day.
Yeah, it can be hard when face-time is asymmetrical. I used toa play a druid in a 3.5 campaign, and I had to work pretty hard to reduce my face-time with all the summons I had. It was a 3 member party (for the most part), so summoning actually helped out a lot. I had to prepare sheets and sheets and sheets of summoned monsters ahead of time, and it really helped. We had a fighter face, and a rogue/wizard/fighter/arcane trickster, so we were a pretty well-balanced party. Occasionally there would be a DMPC evoker or a PC eldritch knight. Went from level 1 to 16, until the DM had to move away.
1 to 16 is farther than I've ever gone. Most of my groups end early. Not hard to figure out why if you read some of my previous post.
Facetime is really easy to steal. In the previous case the player was roommates with the GM, and people who lived with him got crazy favoritism in that campaign. Also a reason I left. Group Cohesion suffers when free rerolls are a thing for a few players and others can't get attention for the life of them.
My favorite moment for bad teamwork was them thinking my wizard didn't have skillpoints. "Wait, how many points in knowledge? How many languages do you know?" Had a higher diplomacy than the cleric after items, just didn't want to steal his show.
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Yeah, my 1st level elf druid archer was so poor, he didn't even buy a backpack because he couldn't afford to put anything in it! Even shortbows are expensive!!!!
Most of my campaigns do go quite that far. It would have gone to 20+ if the DM didn't move across the country. Oh, well. Good times.
My most recent DM moved across the ocean, so now I'm really up a creek without a paddle.
Best to leave on good terms than bad terms with the guys who show up at your PFS events. I'm still searching for that perfect group myself.
We're doing trans-Atlantic PbP, but it just isn't the same.
I've noticed an interesting phenomenon in my gaming group. My players don’t work as a team. Instead of being a squad with a common goal, they’re more like a group of individuals who travel together and have the same goal. They often talk about who is the “MVP”. Who killed the most enemies? Who did the most damage? They aren’t happy unless they’re outdoing each other.
This has led to curious behavior by PCs. I’ve seen them purposely head off alone in order to find some enemies they can defeat without help. I’ve seen them split off and attack separate enemies on purpose, in order to, I don’t know maximize their coolness?
My players tend to think about how to improve their characters first and foremost, and always offensively over defensively. Money gets spent on battle items first, with only the barest possible spent on non-combat items.They seem to really like things this way, and I don’t have much problem in it either, except sometimes it leads to troublesome results. For example, enemies might stay in the fight longer than they otherwise would if the team would focus fire. Instead, they can stay in the fight an extra round or two.
This has led to at least one TPK where a large group of weaker enemies defeated them because they were each whittling down their own “group” instead of annihilating an enemy a round which was within their reach, and would have limited the amount of attacks coming back their way each round.
Your players aren't behaving logically, they are behaving competitively. I run a lot of horror games, and one thing you learn while playing against things that CAN easily kill you is that you have to back each other up. Do yourself a favor, and start running encounters 2 or more CR above average, and start using what you have more ruthlessly. Go buy the two DCC pdfs involving the Rat King. And every time they separate, react to them as if they were fully present. If the lone player succeeds, wonderful. If not, that PC'd better run.
Anyway, my players seem to work effectively as a team in a fight, but they goof off a lot in between. Lots of cheesy jokes; the cleric likes to give the wizard a hard time. I try to get them laughing as well.
my group is also highly competitive. and minmaxing tends to be uncommon. the closest we get to a minmaxed party is a party where nearly everybody has darkvision because what counts as practical optimization varies with the DM.
for the first 7-10 levels with Weekly William. we do a lot of cave and sewer expeditions. lots of flying and invisible casters and lots of massive magically buffed brutes.
important spells include glitterdust, see invisibility, and the dispel magic line.
because of how commonly we recieve a heavy martial bent, spells and class features that improve group weapon damage, such as haste, good hope, or bardic performance also help.
but because Weekly William overcompensates for pets, cohorts, and mind controlled slaves as if they were additional PCs. the addition of extra combatants is frowned upon. because every pet or ally grants 2-3 additional level appropriate foes per encounter to compensate. 3-4 if the pet is naturally large or larger, has pounce, or deals more than 20 damage per swing.
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My group is comfortable with min/maxed combat and heavy RP equally. I'm lucky in that none of my players are "one thing". I've got the powergamer/drama addict on one side and the backstory lover/3d model crafting observer on the other side. The rest fall somewhere in between. Their only setback is agreeing who is the party face. Lately the dwarven axe/shield fighter has been ruining every diplomacy encounter with his surly, sarcastic attitude which I admit, completely fits his character (big shock! a surly dwarf!). However, multiple chances to question a prisoner or valuable npc turned into Jerry Springer chair throwing. Still good fun though. I couldn’t ask for a better group that suits my DM'ng or playing style.
Well the fact it was supposed to be past tense doesn't really change my opinion of a man wanting to be a multiclass pregnant were-dolphin.
This is the funniest thing I've read all week. :)
Well the fact it was supposed to be past tense doesn't really change my opinion of a man wanting to be a multiclass pregnant were-dolphin.This is the funniest thing I've read all week. :)
Your welcome! but really you have the pregnant were-dolphin to thank. I need more groups with cool things like that.
The game I am in now is with some people I have known for about 15 years. Some I have known for less than that. I can't claim that anyone is a tactician. No one fights as a well trained group. Though my character has been killed once it was more from his own stupidity than team work. There wasn't much our group could do with a Bebilith at our level... We did manage to kill it the second time we saw it. But the one thing I keep reading on this board is "as long as you are having fun". Well, we are having fun. Even if we are not doing things perfect, we are enjoying the game night.
The game I am in now is with some people I have known for about 15 years. Some I have known for less than that. I can't claim that anyone is a tactician. No one fights as a well trained group. Though my character has been killed once it was more from his own stupidity than team work. There wasn't much our group could do with a Bebilith at our level... We did manage to kill it the second time we saw it. But the one thing I keep reading on this board is "as long as you are having fun". Well, we are having fun. Even if we are not doing things perfect, we are enjoying the game night.
Expose your gamers to more horror adventures. Carrion Crown might do it, as would Expedition to Ravenloft(3.5 hardcover) or Revenge of the Rat King (DCC modules). That ought to put some starch in their shorts!
OP, from what you describe I honestly feel like these tend to be the worst kinds of groups, the kinds who are competitive with one another and often in turn competitive with the GM. The game, at its core, is cooperational story-telling, and that just can't happen if its every man for himself. Circumstances where one player resents another for being successful can only lead to the worst kind of one-upsmanship.
Now I don't know your group obviously and I'm speaking in general terms only, but I feel blessed to have a group who feels accomplishments and losses as a group. No one gets angry when the Summoner shines in a castle seige by summoning a horde of earth-gliding elementals or when the rogue blows through a skills challenge to thunderous applause... they trust the GM (usually me) to give everyone a chance in the spotlight and they don't begrudge those moments for one another. In combat they work on combos that allow each of them to maximize their strengths while protecting their weaknesses and in role-play the more combat oriented characters are fine stepping back and letting those they often protect take the lead. Its really a joy to be a part of.
What is my group like? Well, sort of similar to poisonous winged monkeys
trapped in a cage with a quasi-lightning elemental.
Yep. That pretty much describes most sessions.
Enjoy your day,
Weslocke of Phazdaliom
We just started a new group. 3/4ths showed up, but that was expected. Most are pretty new to Pathfinder with lots of 3.5 experience. A couple are kind of scoundrels (cavalier and rogue), but the ranger should keep them behaved (real-life wife of the rogue! I'd actually like to see her play a paladin some day...).
I have a very split party. Half of them are munchkins who never fail to surprise me with the rules they managed to bend so far it now looks like origami (I had a PC remake after he died, and came back to the table the next week with +20 on initiative checks at level 8 on a sorcerer). The other half are, for lack of a better word, completely incompetent, and I have to give them a course on how full round attacks work (or the difference between feats and class features) every time they come to the table.
For all their disparities, they work together well, with a bit of direction from the munchkins to the noobs.