Aligned Summoned Creatures Overcomes DR?

[GM Jeff]

I am a neutral character fighting a monster with DR 10/good.

I cast Summon Monster and choose to summon a Celestial creature.

Are the attacks from that Celestial creature considered Good for overcoming DR?

[LazarX]

Yes. as long as they use natural attacks or have a feature which says any weapon wielded by them acquires the alignment subtype.

[GM Jeff]

I think I got it now.

If I am lawful neutral.

I summon a celestial creature, it gains the lawful subtype and the good subtype. (Used mainly for attacks, natural or wielded weapons, overcoming DR).

I summon a fiendish creature, it gains the lawful subtype and the evil subtype.

Or, if I were chaotic neutral.

Celestial creature gains chaotic subtype and good subtype.

Fiendish creature gains chaotic subtype and evil subtype.

[Cheapy]

Unfortunately, the Celestial Template does not change their subtype at all.

[Pupsocket]

The ability to overcome aligned DR with all natural and wielded weapons is part of the 4 alignment subtypes (Good, Evil, Chaotic, Lawful).[source:bestiary description of creature types & subtypes]

The Celestial template (as well as the 3 other templates) that Summon Monster applies to some creatures does not change subtype or type. So, the summoned creature does not gain the ability to overcome aligned DR.[source: celestial creature simple template]

Furthermore, you can only apply templates that match your alignment. A lawful neutral caster can't summon a celestial dog - but he can summon an axiomatic dog. What you can do, is summon a lantern archon - even an evil wizard can do that (but not an evil cleric).[source: summon monster spell text]

[Heaggles]

but when it gets DR from the template it will allow it to overcome DR of the same type with natural attacks. DR magic will allow its natural attacks to overcome magic DR

[Gauss]

Heaggles, there is nothing in PF that states that. Having DR does not allow you to bypass DR.

Edit: And this will teach me not to post while tired. See reply below.

- Gauss

[Heaggles]

Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures' natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

that is copied from the PRD Universal monster rules

[Heaggles]

Some monsters are vulnerable to good-, evil-, chaotically, or lawfully aligned weapons. When a cleric casts align weapon, affected weapons might gain one or more of these properties, and certain magic weapons have these properties as well. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that matched the subtype(s) of the creature.

[Skylancer4]

Gauss wrote:

Heaggles, there is nothing in PF that states that. Having DR does not allow you to bypass DR.

- Gauss

Um.... are you sure about that?

Read up Damage Reduction in the Universal Monster Rules/Bestiary.

[Heaggles]

thats why I coped the rules from the paizo PRD site.

[Gauss]

Heaggles, my bad. I had forgotten about the DR/magic and DR/epic clauses.

Still, it only applies to DR/magic and DR/epic and not materials or alignment. Subtypes bypass alignment rather than DR/alignment bypassing alignment.

- Gauss

P.S. I really shouldn't post when I am tired. I was thinking you were making a blanket statement that possessing DR/whatever allows a creature to bypass DR/whatever. Again, my bad. :)

[Heaggles]

If a monster has DR good it can overcome DR good with its natural attacks, but it can not overcome DR Silver, or any other types. Now if its DR magic and Good it can overcome Dr magic an/or Dr good, but still not DR silver. But if it had DR silver it can overcome Dr silver but not any other, unless it had that type of DR too.

[Gauss]

Heaggles, do you have a quote to support that? All I can find is the alignment subtype. That is not DR/alignment.

It turns out you were making a blanket statement about DR/whatever bypassing DR/whatever. There is no blanket statement in PF that I am aware of (this is what I meant the first time but I wasn't specific enough).

- Gauss

[Snorter]

This came up two weeks ago, as the PCs were fighting a Huge critter with DR 15/magic and good.
The paladin was getting through the DR, via smite.
His hippogriff mount had acquired the celestial simple template (paladin level 11+).
This fact alone does not negate DR, BUT

celestial creatures gain smite evil.

The description in the simple template mentions the addition to attack rolls and damage, but makes no mention of DR.
Is that a deliberate omission, or simply a lack of space?

The d20PFSRD links the smite from the celestial template back to the paladin smite ability, while the PRD does not.

I ruled that the smite had all the same effects as the paladin ability of the same name, and the hippogriff declared its smite against the enemy.
I'm aware that this could be a house-rule, but had I not done so, virtually none of its attacks would have been effective except on a crit, which for a mount of a level 14 PC, would have been rather rubbish.

[Gauss]

Snorter, the Paizo staff have previously stated that Smite in the alignment templates only does what is stated there (attack and damage bonus). No more, no less. D20PFSRD is incorrect.

I will try to find the references.

Edit:
Here you go: James Jacobs

- Gauss

[Heaggles]

Damage Reduction (Ex or Su) A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below.

The entry indicates the amount of damage ignored (usually 5 to 15 points) and the type of weapon that negates the ability.

Some monsters are vulnerable to piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage. Others are vulnerable to certain materials, such as adamantine, alchemical silver, or cold-forged iron. Attacks from weapons that are not of the correct type or made of the correct material have their damage reduced, although a high enhancement bonus can overcome some forms of damage reduction.

Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures' natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons—that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures' natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Some monsters are vulnerable to good-, evil-, chaotically, or lawfully aligned weapons. When a cleric casts align weapon, affected weapons might gain one or more of these properties, and certain magic weapons have these properties as well. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that matched the subtype(s) of the creature.

When a damage reduction entry has a dash (—) after the slash, no weapon negates the damage reduction.

A few creatures are harmed by more than one kind of weapon. A weapon that inflicts damage of either type overcomes this damage reduction.

A few other creatures require combinations of different types of attacks to overcome their damage reduction, and a weapon must be both types to overcome this type of damage reduction. A weapon that is only one type is still subject to damage reduction.

Look at and read what I have bold, I have taken this from the rules on the paizo PRD web site, universal monster rules.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/universalMonsterRules.html

this is the link for it

[Heaggles]

So by the rules a angle can kill a angle with its own bare hands with out any spells or abilities

[Gauss]

Heaggles,

Ahhh good, we are reading the same material. So where in that text does it state that possessing DR/silver, DR/cold iron, DR/adamantine, DR/Good, DR/Evil, DR/Lawful, or DR/Chaotic allows you to bypass the same?

Section one of your bolded statement. Check, DR/Magic.

Section two of your bolded statement. Check, DR/Epic.

Section three of your bolded statement. Hmmm, nope. Alignment subtype bypasses DR. No statement that possessing DR/alignment allows you to bypass DR/alignment.

In short, my first thought was the correct one. You are trying to expand two specific statements (DR/Magic and DR/Epic) to apply to DR/Silver, DR/Cold Iron, DR/Adamantine, and DR/Alignment. It does not work that way and what you quoted does not state that.

I had just forgotten about DR/Magic and DR/Epic. These are the only two DR types that work the way you claim.

So by the rules, an Angel vs another Angel they both have full DR against each other since neither possess an evil subtype or a weapon that bypasses DR/Evil. Possession of DR/Evil does NOT allow you to bypass DR/Evil.

Edit: fixed the alignment (got backwards).

Thank you for providing the quotes that confirm this. :)

- Gauss

[Heaggles]

And DR aliment too, someone with DR good can damage someone else with DR good.

[Gauss]

Heaggles, let me narrow this down for you.

CRB p299 wrote:

A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that matched the subtype(s) of the creature.

What does this mean?

If a creature has the Good subtype it's weapons count as good aligned for purposes of what DR it bypasses. So what is that effective against?

Angel with the good subtype is fighting a creature with DR/Evil (such as an Angel). Does it bypass DR/Evil? No. Why? Because the good subtype is not the Evil subtype.

Angel with the Good subtype is fighting a creature with DR/Good (such as a Devil). Does it bypass DR/Good? Yes. Why? Because the good subtype can bypass DR/Good.

Now, back to Angel on Angel action. Does DR/Evil allow you to bypass DR/Evil? No. Why? Because it does not state this anywhere in the rules.

Lets go to silver.

A Werewolf is fighting another Werewolf. They both have DR/Silver. Do they bypass DR when fighting each other? No. Why? Because it does not state anywhere that they bypass DR/Silver due to possessing DR/Silver.

Again, this is an exception provided only to DR/Magic and DR/Epic. Please quote a line anywhere that states that DR/Silver bypasses DR/Silver. Quote a line that states DR/good bypasses DR/good. Except for Magic and Epic I do not think you will find one.

- Gauss

[Snorter]

Heaggles wrote:

If a monster has DR good it can overcome DR good with its natural attacks, but it can not overcome DR Silver, or any other types. Now if its DR magic and Good it can overcome Dr magic an/or Dr good, but still not DR silver. But if it had DR silver it can overcome Dr silver but not any other, unless it had that type of DR too.

Heaggles, you are right, that creatures with DR magic and DR epic can bypass the same DR with their natural attacks.

Here's the PRD section on DR.

And here's the similar, but not quite identical section on DR, from the Universal Monster rules.

There's nothing about creatures with DR/good overcoming DR/good, or DR/evil overcoming DR/evil.

There's also nothing there about creatures with DR/evil overcoming their opposite faction's DR/good, or vice versa.

If an angel is beating on a fiend, bypassing the fiend's DR/good, it's as a result of the angel's good subtype, not as a result of any DR the angel may possess.

And unfortunately, the celestial template, applied to creatures summoned via the Summon Monster spells, doesn't alter creature type or subtype at all.
Celestial simple template

[Heaggles]

Now after reading it 3 times I think your right about the Silver and such, and rereading that third paragraph I have to agree with you on how its said a angle can not hurt it self, but it can damage a demon in hand to hand combat, with how its said then a summoned clestal eagle can damage any thing that has DR good, and if it had more hit dice it would get magic DR then it could damage something with a DR magic and Good. I can not find anything else except what + of weapon can overcome DR types. This is what it says in the core book

cold iron/silver +3
adamantine +4
alignment-based +5

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html#_appendix-1-special-abilit ies

[Gauss]

Heaggles, a Summoned Celestial Eagle does not have a good alignment subtype. It cannot bypass DR/Good because it does not have that subtype.

Additionally, according to at least one Paizo staff member (James Jacobs) the Smite Evil that a Celestial Eagle possesses does not give it the ability to bypass DR by declaring a smite against an Evil creature.

In short, to return this back to the topic. Summoned creatures with the alignment templates cannot bypass any DR because they do not posses DR/Magic or DR/Epic and they do not possess an alignment subtype.

- Gauss

[Snorter]

Gauss wrote:

Snorter, the Paizo staff have previously stated that Smite in the alignment templates only does what is stated there (attack and damage bonus). No more, no less. D20PFSRD is incorrect.

I will try to find the references.

Edit:
Here you go: James Jacobs

- Gauss

Thanks for that.

I do remember there being a discussion on it, but it was the middle of the session, so I couldn't access it.

I gave the players the benefit of the doubt, as I knew it was a tough beast, that I'd souped up from its 3.5 version.

In the end, the paladin was on his third backup weapon, been dropped from full hp to negatives twice, the hippogriff was beaten up, and there was only one other PC willing to be in melee (relying totally on miss chance to survive).
The final blow came from a celestial familiar (Ravenloft Order of the Raven PrC), who smite-pecked the enemy to -1 hp, whereupon he lost 120 more hp from snapping out of rage.
It went down, to huge cheers.

[Heaggles]

Humm... yea sorry about that celestial creature is not good, according to the rules :p thats weird but it dose make the spell good to summon it :p

[Gauss]

No worries Heaggles, this thread woke me up. I have been getting lazy in my time away from the Paizo boards. Been spending a lot of time on the VTT I frequent.

- Gauss

[Snorter]

Heaggles wrote:

Now after reading it 3 times I think your right about the Silver and such, and rereading that third paragraph I have to agree with you on how its said a angle can not hurt it self, but it can damage a demon in hand to hand combat, with how its said then a summoned clestal eagle can damage any thing that has DR good, and if it had more hit dice it would get magic DR then it could damage something with a DR magic and Good.

A celestial creature never gains DR/magic.

It gains DR/evil at 5HD+, but that doesn't affect its ability to bypass any DR.

Are you confusing the simple celestial template, with the Half-Celestial template?

Half-celestials do get DR/magic, but that is a much more powerful template than the one applied via the Summon Monster spell.
And, it also specifically smites as a paladin. That's probably where my players are claiming their precedent from.

[Heaggles]

sorry yea I am, and in 3.5 they got DR magic

[Heaggles]

Here is my beef with DR why dose Mid to high lv monsters have DR magic, what did the lv 10 fighter not buy a magic weapon yet, or did he lose it, why dont they use some other DR then magic for that tier. That is my 2 cp on that. Sorry this talk has remined me how much I hate DR magic after lv 3 as a GM.

[Snorter]

I think this one's been settled.

To answer the original poster;

No, summoned creatures with celestial or fiendish templates don't gain any alignment subtypes, so don't inherently bypass any alignment DR.

You could use the spell to summon a creature like an archon, which does have the [lawful] and [good] subtypes.
Note that the earliest available archon (the lantern archon) doesn't even have any physical attacks, but it can fire light rays, which bypass all DR.
Or lemures, to bypass [lawful] and [evil] DR.
Or dretch to bypass [chaotic] and [evil] DR, etc.

Or, you could summon a celestial animal, have it declare a smite for extra damage. That damage is still subject to DR, but is more likely to go over the DR threshold.

There are also feats, such as Moonlight Summons, or Sunlight Summons, which can grant your Summoned Nature's Ally the ability to bypass certain DR.

[Snorter]

Heaggles wrote:

Here is my beef with DR why dose Mid to high lv monsters have DR magic, what did the lv 10 fighter not buy a magic weapon yet, or did he lose it, why dont they use some other DR then magic for that tier. That is my 2 cp on that. Sorry this talk has remined me how much I hate DR magic after lv 3 as a GM.

Yes, DR/magic is rubbish against higher level PCs.

I don't think it's meant to slow down the level 10 fighter, though.

It's there for story reasons, to explain why the town guard are running from it, and have to call the level 10 fighter for help.

And it cramps the style of those PCs who've previously been dominating encounters with summoned creatures. Forces them to change their game.

I don't consider DR/magic to be an ability worthy of increasing Challenge Rating, except at low levels, when it can be brutal (Grick; CR3, 27 hp, DR 10/magic!)

[Heaggles]

You dont think a High AC, High To Hit, High Hit Points will make town guard run from it. Yea I Have had a party wipe on a Grick once ever sense people buy Oils of magic weapon when they can afford it. I did not like 3.0 that much but the only thing I did like from it was that DR was +1, +2, +3, +4, +5. So the damage reduction was worth it for the monster as it got bigger, like dragons.

[AnnoyingOrange]

Snorter wrote:

Heaggles wrote:

Here is my beef with DR why dose Mid to high lv monsters have DR magic, what did the lv 10 fighter not buy a magic weapon yet, or did he lose it, why dont they use some other DR then magic for that tier. That is my 2 cp on that. Sorry this talk has remined me how much I hate DR magic after lv 3 as a GM.

Yes, DR/magic is rubbish against higher level PCs.

I don't think it's meant to slow down the level 10 fighter, though.

It's there for story reasons, to explain why the town guard are running from it, and have to call the level 10 fighter for help.

And it cramps the style of those PCs who've previously been dominating encounters with summoned creatures. Forces them to change their game.

I don't consider DR/magic to be an ability worthy of increasing Challenge Rating, except at low levels, when it can be brutal (Grick; CR3, 27 hp, DR 10/magic!)

DR magic isn't terribly exciting at high levels though there still are many effects that deal plain bludgeon, pierce or slash damage like quite a few spells. This means that DR does apply to that damage, also it allows the creature to overcome DR x/magic.

* I houserule the DR to take it down 5 per +1 of the magic weapon and the the creatures with DR magic will be able to overcome DR like a weapon with an enhancement bonus +X = DR divided by 5.

[d20pfsrd.com]

So without having read every post completely, is it still the case that it is felt there is an error on d20pfsrd.com, and if so, where, and is it backed up by more than a quote from someone who routinely says "don't quote me on the rules since I'm not a developer or designer" ?

[Grick]

Heaggles wrote:

Yea I Have had a party wipe on a Grick once ever sense people buy Oils of magic weapon when they can afford it.

So really, I was doing them a favor!

d20pfsrd.com wrote:

is it still the case that it is felt there is an error on d20pfsrd.com, and if so, where, and is it backed up by more than a quote from someone who routinely says "don't quote me on the rules since I'm not a developer or designer" ?

d20pfsrd: Simple Template: Celestial (CR +0 or +1): "Special Attacks smite evil 1/day as a swift action (adds Cha bonus to attack rolls and damage bonus equal to HD against evil foes; smite persists until the target is dead or the celestial creature rests)."

The only error is the text "smite evil" (and "smite") is a hyperlink to the Paladin Smite Evil (Su) class ability, which functions differently.

So the text itself is correct and matches the Celestial Creature entry in the PRD, it's just the hyperlinks which could cause someone to think it works like the Paladin smite ability.

[d20pfsrd.com]

Ok, so the wording isn't actually incorrect but the linking implies functioning in a way in which James says it doesn't. Normally (no offense to James) I don't take what he says as "gospel" but since this isn't really changing any wording, just removing a possible misinterpretation based on linkage, I'll remove the links. Again, no offense to James, but I try to keep official changes to the site to things stated by the development team (Jason/Sean/Stephen/etc.)

Updating now...

Sidenote: Please feel free to email or PM me if there is something that needs to be fixed on the site. My personal email is [e-mail] and I respond usually within just a few minutes so feel free to let me know in the future. I just stumbled onto this thread randomly.

[Cheapy]

It should be noted that both d20pfsrd and the PRD automatically link things, as far as I know, so linking to something isn't really indicative of the rules. It's just done by a computer with little human oversight.

[Grick]

d20pfsrd.com wrote:

Ok, so the wording isn't actually incorrect but the linking implies functioning in a way in which James says it doesn't.

It has nothing to do with James, really. The ability does what it says. The Paladin ability does a bunch of extra stuff. The hyperlink is a web artifact, and is probably put in there automatically. (The PRD does this too, sometimes)

Since the book can't contain a hyperlink, the presence of a hyperlink can't be taken as a rule.

That said, if James had said "Oh yeah, it's supposed to be just like Paladin smite, only with HD instead of Paladin level" I would totally run it that way. (But also ask for that to be mentioned in FAQ or errata)

[LazarX]

GM Jeff wrote:

I think I got it now.

If I am lawful neutral.

I summon a celestial creature, it gains the lawful subtype and the good subtype. (Used mainly for attacks, natural or wielded weapons, overcoming DR).

I summon a fiendish creature, it gains the lawful subtype and the evil subtype.

Or, if I were chaotic neutral.

Celestial creature gains chaotic subtype and good subtype.

Fiendish creature gains chaotic subtype and evil subtype.

None of the above are true. You can only put in the alignment subtypes on normal animals/monsters that you summon with the spell, not on creatures with an already existing planar subtype. You can summon a celestial lion, but not a fiendish angel.

[Ascalaphus]

GM Jeff wrote:

I think I got it now.

If I am lawful neutral.

I summon a celestial creature, it gains the lawful subtype and the good subtype. (Used mainly for attacks, natural or wielded weapons, overcoming DR).

No. The creature is your alignment (LN), but doesn't gain any subtypes at all.

GM Jeff wrote:

I summon a fiendish creature, it gains the lawful subtype and the evil subtype.

Or, if I were chaotic neutral.

Celestial creature gains chaotic subtype and good subtype.

Fiendish creature gains chaotic subtype and evil subtype.

None of the animals you summon gain any subtypes whatsoever. They get your exact alignment.

[LazarX]

Correction, they don't get subtypes, they can be templated (Celestial, Fiendish, Resolute, Anarchic). Otherwise for all intents and purposes, they retain their Bestiary alignments. However it's your Alignment that figures in their interaction with Protection From Alignment spells.

[Ascalaphus]

LazarX wrote:

Correction, they don't get subtypes, they can be templated (Celestial, Fiendish, Resolute, Anarchic). Otherwise for all intents and purposes, they retain their Bestiary alignments.

Well, if you get them through Summon Monster, they adopt your alignment;

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-monster wrote:

Creatures on Table: Summon Monster marked with an "*" are summoned with the celestial template, if you are good, and the fiendish template, if you are evil. If you are neutral, you may choose which template to apply to the creature. Creatures marked with an "*" always have an alignment that matches yours, regardless of their usual alignment. Summoning these creatures makes the summoning spell's type match your alignment.