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Hi, I'm looking for clarification. I'm playing my first Witch, and she's a level 1 human female with Evil Eye, Cackle, and Slumber Hexes (thank you, Extra Hex feats!)
I'm fairly certain of most things pertaining to the class and her abilities, except for this:
In the first round of combat, my witch moves into hex range and attempts an Evil Eye on an enemy, targeting their saves. The enemy makes their Will save and thus the effect is reduced to one round. She cannot cackle because she had to move close enough to perform the Evil Eye.
Will the effect end just before her next turn, and thus require she attempt the Hex again? Or will the -2 to saves still apply until the end of her turn in the second round, allowing her to cackle, and/or throw on another Hex or spell?
I want to make sure I'm doing things fairly because I feel as though my GM has concerns over the witch's ability to turn even a failed save into cycle of shame for her enemies.
Thank you for any/all help.
I'm pretty sure it ends before the next chance to cackle. It is a full round between them after all.
So then, with the risk of not placing a hex that "sticks," perhaps a better opening tactic would be to open with Intimidate to demoralize as a way to start shutting down the enemy?
Good question. I haven't played a witch in a very long time but when I did we were under the assumption you could cackle a failed save without really thinking about it; the hex didn't begin at the start of your turn, so ending then isn't technically a full round. I could see decent arguments mounted either way.
I am inclined to think you can cackle it on a fail, otherwise this would never be worth taking. If you can't be sure of the save debuff, just open with the spell that has the same chance of shutting them down.
In our group, if a witch's hex is saved against, Cackling cannot extend it. I am not sure if there is any room for a different interpretation on that.
Also, once you use any Hex on someone, whether it is friend or foe, you cannot use that particular hex on that someone again until 24 hours has passed. Does not matter if the someone fails or saves versus the Hex.
In our group, if a witch's hex is saved against, Cackling cannot extend it. I am not sure if there is any room for a different interpretation on that.
Also, once you use any Hex on someone, whether it is friend or foe, you cannot use that particular hex on that someone again until 24 hours has passed. Does not matter if the someone fails or saves versus the Hex.
Wow, that's quite some nerfing. Tell me, did the Witch cause problems in your campaign and you made the changes to fix them... or was it that you felt it was too strong before trying it?
I have only played one session as my witch and am really looking forward to being as evil as possible with her (we're playing Way of the Wicked) The hexes and their ability to effectively lead up to permanently blinding foes and other such non-lethal/life-ruining ends to combat. I like the idea that she could build up a reputation by leaving a trail of broken men in her path.
You can however use evil eye multiple times on the same target As long as it apply a different penalty(one to ac one to attack and so on and so forth).I open with saves to give the subsequent hexes a better chance of success.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9o9t
Huh, I really don't know what to do. I rarely ran into that when I played my witch. It was slumber, Coup de grace, repeat. High int made the saves a little high for low level npcs. Level 2 misfortune and you have every good hex before 10 and room for flavor. I'm not sure what to do in the first round if you have trouble starting the hex cycle though. Maybe use a good time to use a spell? Ear piercing scream can shut down a foe with a weak will save for a turn.
Dakota, thats a houserule I think. Evil Eye is just reduced to one turn. Nothing in the text says it can't be extended, but it puts a strain on the witch to cackle to keep it up. There isn't any question about using it twice on one person(evil eye is special though. Theres a faqs giving an example of it used twice! but its definitely used once per different stat debuff). Accursed hex feat can change that.
And yeah, witches can be devastating. Hexes and lots of debuffing. Not as versatile as a wizard, but once per person can be pretty benevolent or vicious and saves a lot of spells. Also helps everyone else hit them!
Forgive me, because I am neither the DM or the player of the witch. With the Evil Eye, yes we reuse it, with different affects on the same target. But, what I meant was, each time it is used to create a particular affect, that is considered as a unique hex. So having the evil eye hex, actually is giving the witch several hex's in one.
She has an INT score of 20, so her DCs are high enough for level one. I see -2 to saves as the optimal opening move, as it helps to ensure that every other hex (and indeed Misfortune at level 2) sticks.
It's just a question as to whether or not she can extend it with a cackle in round 2, should the target be lucky enough to make its save in the first round. -2 to saves doesn't help most of my party members except my witch at this point so it really needs to be a continuous effect.
Of course, if the Evil Eyes begin in round two, the cackle and extension is guaranteed, and then the 5ft step dance can begin.
yup, it ends before the next round.
However, if I remember correctly, Evil Eye does not have the only once on a target/24 hours clause, so feel free to try again (it was just you couldn't stack penalties IE -2 to attacks one round and then -2 the next for a -4.)
Also, by RAW, if you have a move action to cackle (or swift if you have the cackling blouse), you can extend a failed evil eye.
If the save is made, you could just use Evil Eye again. There's no restriction on multiple uses for the same target, even if its the same penalty. You are out a standard action, though.
You might want to eventually invest in a Cackling Hag's Blouse. It allows you to cackle as a swift action instead.
Cackling Hag's Blouse
Price 6,000 gp; Aura faint enchantment; CL 3rd; Weight 2 lbs.
This loose-fitting blouse is adorned with grotesque fetishes and trophies, granting the wearer a +2 competence bonus on Intimidate checks. If the wearer is a witch, she gains the cackle hex. If the wearer already has the cackle hex, twice per day she can use her cackle ability as a swift action instead of a move action.
Construction Requirements
Cost 3,000 gp
Craft Wondrous Item, hideous laughter or the cackle hex, creator must have 5 ranks in Intimidate
Extrapolating from:
The "start full-round action" standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action.
I think it makes sense that a "full round" can end in the middle of a persons turn, hence letting you cackle so long as you are already in position.
but also......
When the rules refer to a "full round", they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.
So I guess it all depends how much weight you put on "usually". The more I read it, the more I think it won't work, and the more I think this hex is not worth taking.
DEVIL'S ADVOCATE: Since you hexed him in the middle of the previous round, wouldn't the hex endure until the middle of the current round? Shouldn't cackle still work, provided it is the first action you take in the second round?
if you move and your evil eye failed, you can't cackle. if you didnt move and it fail, you can cackle. which is why if you have move, the spell ill omen is better opening volley imo, at low levels
As RD said, if you moved first, then did evil eye, then when your turn comes around again, cackle first and unless your GM is going by some hard-core RAW interpretation about durations of effects, your cackle should keep the evil eye going. Then you can either move again or do a standard action.
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This is a pretty well known question about cackle that's never gotten an official ruling:
- are you required to cackle in the same round as using the single round hex to extend it, or
- can the cackle take place on the witch's next turn, before the end of that next turn?
As RD said, if you moved first, then did evil eye, then when your turn comes around again, cackle first and unless your GM is going by some hard-core RAW interpretation about durations of effects, your cackle should keep the evil eye going. Then you can either move again or do a standard action.
I can't think of anything even in the hardcore RAW that supports some of the above interpretations.
Show me the rule(s) that specifically say that. I don't know that they exist.
Poison, for one, often effects you once per round, but you can make the save against it at any point on your turn for example.
what is with the ignoring of a clearly established rule, the evil eye effect for one round begins at the end of your current turn (though the player would benfit from the evil if he could use a swift action or so) and ends at the begining of your next turn. you cannot cackle a 1 round evil eye if moved the round you used the evil eye.
That was a rules quote.Show me the rule(s) that specifically say that. I don't know that they exist.
Poison, for one, often effects you once per round, but you can make the save against it at any point on your turn for example, .
Thanks. It sure didn't look like a rule the way it was phrased.
As was already stated its expressly limited by the rules that an effect that lasts one rounds ends just before the initiative count it started on (meaning just before the start of the witches turn), thus meaning your better off activating fly hex (standard) and moving out of the way (move action) in round 1, and then worry about hexes on round 2
I would like to point out that, despite that rule, there are exceptions abound; chiefly poisons.
Thanks, everybody. It's been a pleasure watching you argue. My GM sides on the RAW ruling that effects with 1 round duration end just before your next turn.
Will be creative with openers!
If the save is made, you could just use Evil Eye again. There's no restriction on multiple uses for the same target, even if its the same penalty. You are out a standard action, though.
You might want to eventually invest in a Cackling Hag's Blouse. It allows you to cackle as a swift action instead.
** spoiler omitted **
Quick Runner's Shirt allows you to move as a swift action once per day, sort of the same mechanics (use a swift for something you use a move for).
Also is 1000 gold and not 6000, very useful for a witch but eats up the same slot as the blouse.