| Calybos1 |
Are there any? Seriously. I've played with three different bards in recent months (PFSociety sessions), and they all do the exact same thing with Silent Image.
1. Party encounters monsters.
2. Bard casts Silent Image to put a visual barrier between party and monsters. All creativity is turned toward describing how silly the barrier is (rock concert, giant rubber duckie, wall of flowing chocolate).
3. Party is unable to see or attack monsters and withdraws in frustration.
4. Repeat.
Seriously. Every freakin' time; the ONLY thing they can think of to do with Silent Image is to blind their own party!
I see two options to explain this:
1. Bard players are uniformly stupid.
2. Bards are all secretly CE and working for the bad guys.
So are there some really simple POSITIVE uses of Silent Image I can point out to them--nothing complicated that requires social interaction or special circumstances or a shred of intelligence, but general very easy uses for a typical dungeon-monster encounter?
Sesharan
|
Shaped Obscuring Mist, informing the party that it's an illusion, instantly giving them a saving throw to disbelieve (which turns it transparent) at a +4 bonus.
Create an illusory party member, who walks up from behind the party or around a corner, then starts speaking via Ventriloquism. Good for diplomacy encounters when you suspect walking up and shaking hands might get you killed.
Illusory party member again (perhaps several) to provide additional targets for enemies.
EDIT: And of course, the ever-popular "summoned" monster illusion. When you're fighting imps, a celestial Lion is the perfect scare tactic/target.
| Knick |
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I like that obscuring mist one, I'll have to give it a try sometime. The problem I see with shaking hands is that the target will immediately get a save since the silent image doesn't have scent or temperature (if I recall correctly). Although higher level illusion spells could cover that.
My favorite use of the spell has been to justify very large circumstance bonuses to Bluf and/or Intimidate. Shadows are my favorite play, since the only sense tied to them is sight. For example: when my bard cries "I AM THE MIGHTY SHADOWMANCER SOANDSO!!! LEAVE NOW OR MY MINIONS WILL CONSUME YOUR VERY SOULS!!!" while every shadow in the room appears to take shape and move in on the baddies--that is frightening stuff.
...except for that one GM who hated me "getting around" combat encounters.
Sesharan
|
Yup, illusions are fantastic for getting circumstance bonuses.
Also, "shaking hands" was kind of poorly phrased, I guess. It's more for when you're trying to talk down an intelligent monster and you'd rather the initial sneak attack or breath weapon or whatever targeted someone who isn't the squishy who put more points in Con than Cha.
| Ramarren |
Some things to note about illusions:
"Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving
throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it
carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline." (emphasis mine)
"A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw.
If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus."
So to use your initial scenario above:
1. Party encounters monsters.
2. Bard casts Silent Image to put a visual barrier between party and monsters, and gives the party the high-sign that he is using his 'illusion tactic'.
3. Party either needs no save, or at minimum saves at +4 (while creatures initially get no save until they interact).
4. Party uses a round or so to prep spells, reposition themselves, perhaps take a round firing missile weapons while monsters figure out what is going on.
Silent Image is much more powerful outside of combat, with some prep time. Hiding difficult terrain or traps from enemies, making a room 18' smalller in one dimension while your party hides behind the false wall, covering up doors, blocking the street with illusionary carts, or blocking an alley with illusionary boxes...these are all things that can be done if you have time to prepare (note that your Bard will be out of action until the illusion drops, but what s/he is doing is a support function.
Addmittedly, I generally use it for briefings...the 3d zoomable model of the city that can be used when planning assaults or other mission-style outings. (to be fair, that technically stretches the capacities of the spell, but I've seen no GM who has objected to it)
| Durngrun Stonebreaker |
Make a cage or fence. Monster is "trapped" inside or behind and party peppers them with arrows. (Doesn't work if monster has ranged attacks but different monsters, different tactics)
I played a bard who was a detective of sorts (long before archetypes) who would use silent image to make a "wanted sheet" to show people. "Have you seen these two men?"
I've used silent image on our "tank" (long before I knew that term, I'm old) to make his armor appear shoddy then concentrated on the illusion to make it look like he was taking damage. Kept the bad guys on him despite the fact they couldn't hope to beat his AC.
| tonyz |
Create a wall of brilliant flames four feet high. Your party can see over it and attack over it, but animals and dumber monsters will be unlikely to approach. Meanwhile your archer goes to town on them.
Create an illusion of a wall of force. Smart enemies will know that they can't get through it and try to get around. They may even use it for their advantage in tactical placing, till your barbarian walks through it into a flanking position and goes to town on them.
Is there a handy pit or chasm on the battlefield? Cover it up, and watch the enemies send themselves to town. Or create an illusion of a bridge with an illusion of a party member crossing it to lure them into it. Works better with enemies who don't know the area.
Create an illusion of someone walking forward into the dangerous area. Hopefully the enemy will go to town on the illusion and waste their big guns. Drawing fire is a perfectly good use of an illusion, though maintaining line of sight may be a problem.
Drop the visual barrier after your party has had a couple rounds to buff up. Creating a straight visual barrier can be a very useful tactic, but it's hardly the only available one.
Illusions require the player to be creative and think fast in regard to the situation. If you can't do that, play something else. If you and your GM aren't on the same wavelength with illusions, use something else. But there's a lot of potential for someone who can quickly size up the situation, think of something plausible to do to make it look different in some beneficial way, and do it.
| Corvo Spiritwind |
Corvo Spiritwind wrote:Why am I suddenly thinking of Naruto?Porn ._.
Take skills in Craft (disturbing mental images) and send naked female dwarves with beards against your enemies.
I'm more that the first thing you think when seeing bearded naked dwarfen ladies, you think of food.
Sesharan
|
Also, something useful for all illusionist bards: Take Spellsong. It lets you disguise casting as part of a performance (which can even be a simple mundane performance), and concentrate as a move action instead of a standard, letting you do more important things, like cast other spells or even concentrate on two illusions at once. After all, everyone knows that you can't concentrate on two completely different illusions at once, right? Not to mention the fact that the bard didn't cast anything last round. One of those "dragons" must be real.
Sesharan
|
Summon balls of blackness over the faces of the enemy. They all get a saving throw, but it's still a save or be blind.
A personal favorite, but one that I've had people say they might not allow for the simple reason that you're imitating a second or third level spell (Blindness) with a first level spell (Silent Image).
| Marthkus |
M1rough wrote:Summon balls of blackness over the faces of the enemy. They all get a saving throw, but it's still a save or be blind.A personal favorite, but one that I've had people say they might not allow for the simple reason that you're imitating a second or third level spell (Blindness) with a first level spell (Silent Image).
Except that it requires concentration and someone can tell the victim that it is an illusion and they get another saving throw at +4.
| Calybos1 |
Which brings up another point; the GMs of these sessions have ruled that even if you know it's an illusion, you still can't see through it. Does that mean the ball of blackness will still blind the target even when they know it's fake (i.e., made their save)? We certainly haven't been able to see through the barriers even after making saves.
| IejirIsk |
in a tunnel as a channel system when you want him to go down a specific path, or dont want him to continue and think its a dead end. Depends on how well the other knows the cave system.
in active combat, depends on player/dm/mobs illusions are one of those that depends on DM and player more than almost any other tree of spells
| Calybos1 |
..which is directly counter to RAW. Those GMs are misapplying the rules.
Now, that's interesting. I saw the earlier reply that said prewarned characters (i.e., allies) are supposed to get a +4 bonus on their save too, which also didn't happen when one bard tried to include a 'tell' in all his images that would tip off the other PCs.
Truth be told, I'd been considering making up a bard myself before these experiences convinced me that it was a bad idea... or that my bard would have to be a Charm Person specialist to avoid all the problems that come with illusions always backfiring. I suspect some GMs simply hate illusion spells on principle (something I recall from my D&D days).
It's good to know there are other options!
| Kerblamikus |
I also use a tell for my illusions so that my party gets a +4 to disbelieve. I use the phrase Behold, my impenetrable wall of force! or variations depending on what I'm making. The behold word lets my party know it's an illusion and if I want the enemy to believe my wall is real the only explanation is that I've used magic so I might as well call attention to the fact and make them think I'm a conjurer instead.
With regards to automatic disbelief when faced with proof the example of having an illusion covering a pit is useful. If an enemy probes the ground with a staff and it goes straight through that's it - instant translucent outline.
This makes a mist superior to a wall in some cases as your hand passing through wouldn't cause disbelief. With the bards use in the OP perhaps someone here can comment on the legitimacy of the following strategy.
Silent image of a wall directly in front of your team with obscuring mist in front of the wall. You then step into the wall in front of your team providing proof that the illusion is not real. Bad guys don't see this and don't get the benefit. Target practice time.
Silent Saturn
|
I've seen Bards use Silent Image to create barriers around just themselves. Once nobody can see them anymore, they're free to cast whatever buffs the party needs, keep Inspire Courage up, and/or break out the shortbow. This works best for a "cheerleader"style bard who doesn't plan on mixing it up in combat himself.
The problem is, if even one enemy makes their save, they tend to go after the guy who tried to hide inside an illusionary barrel. Something about that tactic just screams "dirty trick" and/or "soft target".
| Thornborn |
I have a magus who used a Grease on a climbing enemy, and then Silent Image to make it look like the Grease spread out over ALL the walls.
But I do have to say, the inconsistent interpretation of illusion spells, and things like 'Silent Image can't flank, but Invisible Silent guy can', are why people build Big Dumb Fighters and Flavor of the Month builds, because the Creative Players union has membership of one, and the Cheese of the Month club is legion.
| Lochmonster |
Considering in the text about illusions it says that an illusion can NOT provide any real world affect, how strictly your GM interprets this is the real decider if you can get bonus to intimidates, bluffs, etc while using an illusion.
Also it's silent IMAGE, meaning singular so no packs of wolves either.
Also, also Silent Image provides NO component other than an image so the second someone touches your illusionary mist or grease or whatever it's pretty much obviously an illusion.
You also can't use an illusion to alter something else. That's a glamer not a figment. So no illusionary pits either because you can't have an illusion of a hole in the ground, that would be making the ground invisible which is a glamer, but making an illusion of a wooden plank over an actual holes is fine.