Gunslingers: What is going on here?

[ErrantPursuit]

I was excited to build my very first fantasy epic Gunslinger character type. I enjoy swashbuckling stories and have always felt early firearms were a legitimate addition to any game where fireballs, dragons and talking swords lurked. Your opinion may vary. I'm new to the Pathfinder Society and it took me some time to track down all the relevant rules for use with my proposed character. What really surprised me was discovering that, as far as I understand, a Gunslinger is not a viable character until it has reached level 11 in class, and to be viable it must select Lightning Reload as the Deed for that level and have selected Rapid Reload(Your Firearm of Choice).

Follow me on the logic as I would love to be mistaken.

Per the Firearm rules on reloading:

Quote:

Early Firearms: Early firearms are muzzle-loaded,

requiring bullets or pellets and black powder to be rammed
down the muzzle. If an early firearm has multiple barrels,
each barrel must be loaded separately. It is a standard action
to load each barrel of a one-handed early firearm and a
full-round action to load each barrel of a two-handed early
firearm.

And we know from the Core Rules Book that you only get one standard action per round and one swift action per round.

Quote:

There are six types of actions: standard actions, move actions,

full-round actions, swift actions, immediate actions,
and free actions.
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action
and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action.
You can also perform one swift action and one or more
free actions. You can always take a move action in place of
a standard action.

Okay, so best case scenario is a one-handed firearm.

Fire on turn 1.
Reload on turn 2.
Repeat.

Now a Gunslinger's BAB is topnotch and grows every level, capping at +20/+15/+10/+5. The Gunslinger also receives d10 hit dice, reinforcing that this is a combat focused character template. Like most character classes of this type gear is very important to performance. So I spend a lot of time hunting down exactly what gear is viable for Pathfinder Society Organized Play.

Quote:

Equipment: No firearm sized Large or larger is available for purchase. The double hackbut and culverin on Table 3–4 and advanced firearms on Table 3–5 and are not permitted in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. No character may purchase a firearm unless she possesses the Gunsmithing feat and firearms are never considered Always Available; a character must possess enough Fame to purchase any firearm not found on a Chronicle sheet or granted by a class feature. All ammunition except metal cartridges may be purchased.

Okay, so Gunslingers are restricted to weapons that all must be loaded with a standard action per barrel. These weapons are hard to obtain and never reduced in cost. Ammunition is also costly but much easier to come by.

If you have stuck with me so far here are the elements:
1) I must expend my turn either firing my weapon or reloading it. If I possess the Rapid Reload feat I can spend my turn reloading two barrels of a firearm at maximum. One barrel as a Swift Action and one barrel as a Standard Action. No translation exists for equivalent swift actions to standard actions and, really, shouldn't.
2) All Pathfinder Society available firearms have either a one or two shot capacity for ammo except the Pepperbox, which contains 6 barrels. Each barrel must be loaded as a separate action.

With Rapid Reload and a pistol the first 5 levels of a Gunslinger's life are not terrible. You get your one shot, and if you took Rapid Reload instead of Point Blank Shot or Precise Shot you can receive your full compliment of attacks. You cannot take advantage of Rapid Fire unless you buy a weapon with another barrel. If you choose to use a two-handed firearm you are restricted to firing every other turn regardless.

So, let us then assign an array of guns, weapon cords and the Quick Draw feat to the Gunslinger. The effect is a character who can fire a lot of bullets once and then...has to reload a lot of barrels while other people fight for their lives.

The problem as I see it is that the Gunslinger is a combat focused class that is unable to receive a full compliment of attacks in the weapon they specialize in for 11 levels. After that point, if the character is to receive the benefits of a Full Attack action they are *required* to buy a specific feat and select a specific Deed, otherwise 16th level arrives and the character (after one good bullet storm from multiple weapons) Fires +16(BOOM)/+11(BOOM)/+6(click)/+1(click). This reload cap is a serious bottleneck to the class' effectiveness.

Am I missing something critical here? Because I can see no way to pull my weight as a Gunslinger until level 11. Even then I am required to select specific options in order to take advantage of basic game mechanics like the Full Attack action, which seems fairly absurd to me for a class that uses the highest BAB and second highest hit dice.

Thanks in advance for any insight you have to offer.

[Bearded Ben]

Alchemical Cartridges let you load faster, and stack with Rapid Reload.

Quote:

"Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action)"

[BigNorseWolf]

Not an expert on guns in pathfinder, but the trick is to get your full attack, which you do by

Starting at a standard action.
Taking Rapid reload to make it a move action
and then using an alchemical cartridge to make it a free action

If you use a musket, you almost need to take the musket master archtype for faster reloading.

If you use pistols, you can use weapon cords to "drop" one pistol so you have two hands to load the other one: in pfs they specifically do not interfere with your ability to reload.

[SCPRedMage]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Not an expert on guns in pathfinder, but the trick is to get your full attack, which you do by

Starting at a standard action.
Taking Rapid reload to make it a move action
and then using an alchemical cartridge to make it a free action

If you use a musket, you almost need to take the musket master archtype for faster reloading.

If you use pistols, you can use weapon cords to "drop" one pistol so you have two hands to load the other one: in pfs they specifically do not interfere with your ability to reload.

To build on this, with one-handed firearms, Rapid Reload drops the reload down to a move action, and with two-handed firearms, it comes to a standard action.

Using alchemical cartridges decreases the action by "one step", so a full-round action becomes a standard, a standard becomes a move, and a move becomes a free action.

Also, the Musket Master archetype grants the Rapid Reload (muskets) feat for free at first level.

So, using one-handed firearms with Rapid Reload and alchemical cartridges, you can reload as a free action, so you can full attack.

Using two-handed firearms with Rapid Reload and alchemical cartridges, you can reload as a move action, so you can fire every round, assuming you don't ever need to move more than five feet at a time.

[Marthian]

BigNorseWolf sums it up.

So in a manner speaking, yes: you do have to get Rapid Reload, and alchemical cartridges are pricy. But you are targeting touch AC, which is almost ALWAYS easy to hit.

[ErrantPursuit]

I re-read Rapid Reload which did address one misconception. For clarity:

Quote:

Source Ultimate Combat pg. 1, Inner Sea World Guide pg. 288, PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 132

Choose a type of crossbow (hand, light, heavy) or a single type of one-handed or two-handed firearm that you are proficient with. You can reload such a weapon quickly.

Prerequisites: Weapon Proficiency (crossbow type chosen) or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearm).

Benefit: The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow), a move action (for heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm), or a standard action (two-handed firearm). Reloading a crossbow or firearm still provokes attacks of opportunity.

If you have selected this feat for a hand crossbow or light crossbow, you may fire that weapon as many times in a full-attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow.

Normal: A character without this feat needs a move action to reload a hand or light crossbow, a standard action to reload a one-handed firearm, or a full-round action to load a heavy crossbow or a two-handed firearm.

Special: You can gain Rapid Reload multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of crossbow or a new type of firearm

This information courtesy of Archives of Nethys.

So I still have only two move actions in a round and can only load one barrel per action. One-step down from a move equivalent action is a Swift Action, not a Free Action, which means at best I'm still at 3 shots in one round and reloading the next.

As for the Touch AC argument - Most classes that have an easy to target Touch AC have plenty of hitpoints behind that. The others usually make up for it with magical armor enhancements, high dexterity or combinations of the two. In the end, Touch AC is a nice little boost but not a significant argument in either direction. Your overall impact on any given target is fairly equivalent.

[CanisDirus]

Bearded Ben was quoting Ultimate Combat above. For gunslingers/ammo/reload, it goes Full -> Standard -> Move -> Free.

[Nefreet]

ErrantPursuit wrote:

One-step down from a move equivalent action is a Swift Action, not a Free Action

You are incorrect. It is stated quite clearly in Ultimate Combat.

The progression is Full-round => Standard => Move => Free

For loading firearms, that is.

[ErrantPursuit]

Hmm, Thanks Mike Bramnik, Bearded Ben. I really appreciate the clarification. I was under the impression it literally improved only one step, the jump from Move Action to Free is great. I cannot tell you how pleased I am to discover that the oversight was mine.

Now I just have to deal with the misfire escalation of cartridges...

[Dan Luckett]

Now you only have to worry about GMs limiting free actions and you're good to go.

[Nefreet]

I would suggest looking at the Gunslinger archetypes, too. Especially Pistolero and Musket Master. There are arguments for and against taking an archetype that could keep us up all night, but take a look and decide if they're right for you. I've played a Pistolero in the past, and am playing a Musket Master now, and I love them both.

[ErrantPursuit]

Fortunately thanks to the clarification added to Rapid Reload which states that if reloading is a free action I can fire as many times as I have chances and ammo, I should be great.

The planned build eventually ends up using a lot of feats to capitalize on Attacks of Opportunity, including an Inquisitor class feature, Solo Teamwork, to ensure I don't need to rely on random party members for effectiveness. I'm a little leery on the Musketeer Archetype, but I'll figure it out.

[ErrantPursuit]

Since you brought it up, Nefreet, I am curious about the Musket Master. The replacement Deeds they mention, do I *have* to take them or am I allowed to take others? I really want to pick up Deadeye at some point, and Steady Aim, while neat, is not a major concern.

[SCPRedMage]

ErrantPursuit wrote:

Since you brought it up, Nefreet, I am curious about the Musket Master. The replacement Deeds they mention, do I *have* to take them or am I allowed to take others? I really want to pick up Deadeye at some point, and Steady Aim, while neat, is not a major concern.

All changes made by archetypes are mandatory.

[ErrantPursuit]

Thank you SCPRedMage, I wasn't sure how it interacted with replacing optional class features.

[Jason Wu]

The nicest thing about Gunslingers once you get the reload speed down, is that they target Touch AC in their first range increment.

Which means you can stack every damage bonus you can find, because even with ones that sacrifice to-hit, you'll probably STILL hit with all shots. Make sure to look at Deadly Aim.

Biggest downside is ammo cost. You just about shoot gold at your targets. Later on try to get a means of having Abundant Ammunition cast on your ammo at the beginning of fights.

-j

[Netopalis]

There is an excellent guide to gunslingers out there which I can't link right now, as I am on my hone. Search for Guide to Gunslinger Greatness.

[Jocard The Fist]

ErrantPursuit wrote:

Since you brought it up, Nefreet, I am curious about the Musket Master. The replacement Deeds they mention, do I *have* to take them or am I allowed to take others? I really want to pick up Deadeye at some point, and Steady Aim, while neat, is not a major concern.

I think you might be misunderstanding the Deeds. You don't have to choose which ones to learn. Once you hit the required level, you can use any of those Deeds. So all Musket Master will cost you is Gunslinger's Dodge. You would get Deadeye, Steady Aim, and Quick Clear at first level.

Deeds wrote:

Gunslingers spend grit points to accomplish deeds. Most deeds grant the gunslinger some momentary bonus or effect, but there are some that provide longer-lasting effects. Some deeds stay in effect as long as the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point. The following is the list of base gunslinger deeds. A gunslinger can only perform deeds of her level or lower. Unless otherwise noted, a deed can be performed multiple successive times, as long as the appropriate amount of grit is spent to perform the deed.

Nowhere does it say they must pick a Deed. They can use any of their level or lower.

[Nefreet]

ErrantPursuit wrote:

I'm a little leery on the Musketeer Archetype, but I'll figure it out.

Be sure you're looking at Musket Master. Musketeer is not legal for PFS play.

The Musket Master archetype gets an ability at third level that further increases the speed of which you can reload a two-handed firearm. Without that ability, the most any other gunslinger can shoot a musket in one round is twice, with the Lightning Reload deed.

[Jiggy]

@ErrantPursuit - Looks like your questions have been answered, but I have one thing to add: it looks like you think that at any given level you choose a deed to learn. This is not the case; you get all the listed deeds (well, except those granted by an archetype that you didn't take).

[nosig]

also, it's kind of nice to have someone in the party with Disable Device as a class skill (I think Gunslingers get it) - and as a Dex based fighter you can be good at it.
.
Remember to be useful outside of combat as well as in...

[thejeff]

nosig wrote:

also, it's kind of nice to have someone in the party with Disable Device as a class skill (I think Gunslingers get it) - and as a Dex based fighter you can be good at it.

.
Remember to be useful outside of combat as well as in...

They don't get it. Not a lot of useful out of combat skills, really.

Bluff and Intimidate, but except for the Mysterious Stranger, no other reason to pump Cha means they won't be much of a face.

[Mojorat]

One thing that hasnt really been mentioned (or if it has I missed it) is the lvl 7 deede (i forget thye name) lets you fire all your shots in one round asm a full round action.

So with lightning reload and this deed you could fire every round without problem provided you dont move. the only issue is it would be grit intensive.

[SCPRedMage]

Mojorat wrote:

One thing that hasnt really been mentioned (or if it has I missed it) is the lvl 7 deede (i forget thye name) lets you fire all your shots in one round asm a full round action.

So with lightning reload and this deed you could fire every round without problem provided you dont move. the only issue is it would be grit intensive.

You're thinking of the dead shot deed, which is only ONE shot, but you get multiple attack rolls, as if you were making a full-attack. If any one of the attack rolls hits, the shot hits the target, and for each additional hit, you increase the damage by the weapon's damage die (so for a medium musket, you'd increase it by 1d12 for each additional hit).

The shot will only misfire if ALL of the attack rolls misfire, but if ANY of the attack rolls are a critical threat, the entire thing is a threat, although the roll to confirm the crit takes a -5 penalty (which gets reduced by 1 for each additional threat you roll).

The advantages of this is that it uses less ammo than a full-attack, you don't need to worry about reloading in the middle of it, and you can make DAMN sure that that specific shot is going to hit (in case you're using something like the Grenadier's Alchemical Weapon feature).

The disadvantage is that it does less damage than a full-attack does with the same attack rolls (unless you get a pair of natural ones prior to the last attack), as things like your Gun Training (Dex to damage) or Deadly Aim only applies to it once.

[Makarion]

Going the One Shot To Rule Them All route would combine well with Vital Strike, though.

[SCPRedMage]

Makarion wrote:

Going the One Shot To Rule Them All route would combine well with Vital Strike, though.

Vital Strike requires you to make an "attack action", which has been clarified to mean a standard action attack, so if you meant the dead shot deed when you said "One Shot To Rule Them All", that wouldn't work, as the dead shot deed is a special full-round action, not an "attack action".

[Makarion]

Ah, thank you SCPRed. Although it kind of nixes this idea, it's probably for the best considering some other cases that could lead to abuse.