
Gallyck |

My gm is giving me the option of moving into Incanatrix (which looks awesome) and thus I need to begin taking Metamagic feats. I just turned level 5 and I just found out it will be available. So obviously I'm taking Iron Will. But as far as Metamagic feats I dont know what I should take. Persistent? Im a gnome and specialized in illusions. So threatening illusion is a possibility later.

tonyz |

Quicken Spell is a high-level feat (I usually take it at 11th or 13th level). Really handy, but not yet.
It depends on your build and your favorite spells. Persistent Spell (you made your save? roll again!) is great for debuffers and might be helpful for illusionists.
Dazing Spell and Empower Spell are good for bllaster-types, which it doesn't sound like your shtick.
Extend Spell is very nice if you cast buffs (particularly long-duration buffs) and might help some illusions. Silent Spell and Still Spell are very nice if you are in a lot of social situations and don't want people noticing you're casting spells, or if you want to be able to cast in a grapple or silence spell or while sneaking around.

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Silent has too much utility to be ignored, especially for an illusionist. (All that mystic jabbering can really spoil a Silent Image.)
I'm assuming you're a sorcerer (and thus a spontaneous caster) here. After Silent, here are some good ones, ranked by their level increase.
Extend - good for early levels when you want things to last, but might be better on a rod
Highten - important for Spell Perfection later
Selective - if you're a blaster
Piercing - can be very helpful later on, though I'd take Spell Penetration for a prepared caster
Rime - entangled is a great debuff
Still - not as handy as Silent, but also good for sneakiness. Charm Person as a 3rd-level but completely undetectable spell is kind of awesome.
Persistent - excellent for those ones people can save against every round
Daze - REALLY powerful effect; dazing multiple foes for multiple rounds ends fights, especially if you're dealing damage at the same time
Quicken - essential at high levels

StreamOfTheSky |

Quicken *****
Dazing *****
Persistent ****
Reach ****
Bouncing ***
Echoing ***
The following are EXCELLENT as metamagic rods, but I would likely not take the feat for them (because the rods are so dirt cheap):
Selective
Silent
Extend
Intensified
(Still would also be here, but it is not a rod, sadly)
The rest I'd rate as 2 or 1 star. Which is a very harsh grading curve, plenty of the "2 star" ones would be decent metamagic feats. But setting the bar high helps to highlight the absolute cream of the crop.

Animation |

I thought Heighten Spell was BAD for Spell Perfection. Sure, the DC would go up 2 instead of 1. But the text on Heighten Spell does *not* say to increase the spell slot value by 1, as most metamagic feats say. Instead, it says that the heightened spell uses as high of a slot as its effective level.
Spell Perfection lets you stack on a metamagic feat for free, but still makes the comparison of the overall level vs 9th level slots to remain valid. While Spell Perfection never uses the literal phrase "effective level" ... thats effectively (sorry :)) what that check for total levels (vs 9th slot) is.
So RAI, and maybe even RAW if you arent pedantic, seems to me that Spell Perfection gets trounced by Heighten Spell. And even if it doesnt, you still could get trounced. Check this out:
Fireball with Magical Lineage and Heighten Spell and Persistent Spell have an effective level of 6. Magical Lineage lowers the metamagic cost by one, but you still cant use a 5th level slot because Heighten Spell says the slot used is equal to the effective level of the spell, and that is 6th.
Anyway, I just dont trust Heighten Spell. What do you all think?

StreamOfTheSky |

I have never been a fan of Heighten. The only time I ever use it is for Shadowcraft Mage (3E prestige class) builds, for which Heighten rocks (actually, it's pretty much required for the build to even work right). Coincidentally, Spell Perfection and the two metamagic reducer traits among other caster gifts in pathfinder would be incredibly delicious on a SCM build, should you be in a game that uses PF and 3E rules.

ikarinokami |

i think heighten is used to boost save dcs very easily. it cost whatever heighten spell slot you are casting at.
You can always use say a 4th or 5th level slot to cast a fireball, but you don't gain anything from it. if you use heighten spell to do it, then the fire is treated as an actual 4th or 5th level, and so the save DC gets bumped up.
my personal opinion is heighten spell is great for spontanous casters because you can extend the life span of some really good spells, like slow, stinking cloud, whose only negatives at higher levels is the lower save dc's associated with them being a lower level spell. and that increase your versality and ability to make different spells choices at higher levels, because your lower level spells are still functional.

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I tend to like the more specific meta-magics, since i tend to look at the feat selection as a way of defining the character, and not just sheer mechanics.
That being said, 2 of my favourite metamagics are the umbral/tenebrous/shadow grip spell feat chain, and Rime spell(better with some of the new/OP cold based spells recently put out)

TheeGravedigger |

Nobody has suggested Bouncing? Sorry, one person suggested it, but didn't rank it highly.
Bouncing plus Murderous Command is currently my favorite combo, especially when combined with Magical Lineage.
It basically gives you a second chance a spell, if it fails the first time. Depending on your odds of success against their saves, that can be of considerable value.

agentJay |
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As a magic device for a caster that takes metamagic feats I must point out staff of the master but getting it made for your focused spell school due to this ability in the description.
I find that to be quite powerful.
P.S. I added the bold to point out what I was talking about.

StreamOfTheSky |

Nobody has suggested Bouncing? Sorry, one person suggested it, but didn't rank it highly.
It basically gives you a second chance a spell, if it fails the first time. Depending on your odds of success against their saves, that can be of considerable value.
I did rank it highly. I intentionally set my rankings super high to separate the best from the rest. ANYTHING I listed is heads and shoulders above all the other meta feats (of course, I could have forgotten or not know of some that are also great).
Bouncing not only requires two targets, you also generally want them to be fairly close in power. If you have a dominate person spell and the boss saves, passing it off to one of his 1st level mooks is an extremely tiny consolation prize. You know what I mean? So the main problem is that it's situational. As a +1, though, it's also nice and cheap as a rod if you want it for those rare times it can really shine.
Bouncing plus Murderous Command is currently my favorite combo, especially when combined with Magical Lineage.
I like Bouncing Murderous Command with Silent Spell (or the rod) and either greater invisibility or just plain stealth to hide nearby. No one is aware you cast it, so as long as either person fails, they'll both likely start killing each other, or start an even larger brawl between an entire group.

asthyril |

threatening illusion + effortless trickery + major image = constant flank buddy for your allies. cast it when you wake up and maintain it all day.
use a phantasmal gem once combat starts so you can actually keep the major image and still cast spells (since you cannot cast spells while concentrating on one), on your first turn put the major image into position and telekinetic charge an ally into a flank. a free attack for your ally plus they start their turn adjacent to an enemy, and already in a flank. excellent tactic if you have a rogue in your party.

Lochmonster |

you cannot cast spells while concentrating on one
Effortless Trickery allows you to do just that but only spells of the Illusion School.
As per the feat:
You can maintain concentration on one spell of the illusion school as a swift action. This has no effect on spells of other schools or on illusion spells with durations that don’t depend on your active concentration. While you may only maintain one spell as a swift action, you may take your move and standard actions to maintain other spells normally, if you wish.

SeaBiscuit01 |

Depends on your Spellcasing Style:
For an enchanter Still, Silent, Heighten, Persistant, Threnodic are good choices, Spell Focus & Greater Spell Focus
For a elemental/blasty type: Elemental, Focused, Dazing, Empower, Selective, Maximize, Rime, Intensified Spell
For Save or Suck: Heighten, Persistant, Focus and Greater Focus
For Controller type: Rime,
For the Magus: Intensified & Empower, (and get close range arcana for that 10d6 Snowball and Empowered/Maximized/Quickened with posibility to crit Ennervation can you say 8 levels in a crit BOOYAH!)
For Everyday uses:
- Extend for buffs
- Selective to protect your allies, etc
- Varisian Tatoo (or Spell Tatoo): For +1 to CL to a particular school
Preferred Spells: For Caster Level variable dependant spells, you cast often. Stack a +6 for a particular spell with
Spell Perfection: For almost everyone, as it doubles practically everything you ride on Caster Level and DC. Get 3 other Metamagic Feats to plan for Spell Perfection at 15th level.
That's the beauty of your different mages, you can build something quite diverse everytime you take the class.

asthyril |

asthyril wrote:you cannot cast spells while concentrating on oneEffortless Trickery allows you to do just that but only spells of the Illusion School.
As per the feat:
You can maintain concentration on one spell of the illusion school as a swift action. This has no effect on spells of other schools or on illusion spells with durations that don’t depend on your active concentration. While you may only maintain one spell as a swift action, you may take your move and standard actions to maintain other spells normally, if you wish.
that i would argue with, since it does not say you can cast spells, only maintain them. while concentration rules explicitly state you cannot cast a spell while concentrating on one.
for instance if you cast one illusion spell, then next round you use a swift action to maintain it, then use a wand of silent image with your standard action (because concentration rules state spell casting, not using magic items or any other standard actions) to cast another spell you must concentrate on. now you can spend 1 swift action and 1 standard action a round concentrating on those 2 spells.

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That is exactly how i read that. Effortless Trickery only change "Standard" action to "swift" action
that i would argue with, since it does not say you can cast spells, only maintain them. while concentration rules explicitly state you cannot cast a spell while concentrating on one.
Benefit: You can maintain concentration on one spell of the illusion school as a swift action.
Normal: Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Dr Grecko |

If Effortless Trickery doesn't allow you to cast another spell while maintaining another, then the feat is nigh useless. When looking at the concentration rules, I find the same paragraph in both the Magic and the Combat sections:
Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can keep you from concentrating to maintain a spell. If your concentration breaks, the spell ends.
However, the Magic section has a small addition that never made it in the combat section.
You can't cast a spell while concentrating on another one.
Now, I believe this inconsistency was an oversight, and probably missed when designing the Effortless Trickery feat. Effortless trickery allows you to maintain a spell as a swift, and has wording to maintain a second with move/standard. However, if you're never allowed to cast that second spell in the first place, then the feats wording on maintaining other spells is pointless.
Therefore I believe RAI was meant to allow the casting of other spells while maintaining the swift action illusion spells. RAW is either/or depending on what section of the book you are reading.

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So...no love for Toppling Spell?
I think it's pretty limited as it can only be applied to spells with the Force descriptor.
Also, at low levels Toppling Magic Missiles can be nice, but in most of the games I've played the higher levels are filled with enemies that are either immune or very difficult to trip. It can't affect a flying target at all, for example.
So...no love from me.

asthyril |

If Effortless Trickery doesn't allow you to cast another spell while maintaining another, then the feat is nigh useless. When looking at the concentration rules, I find the same paragraph in both the Magic and the Combat sections:
Both Sections wrote:Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can keep you from concentrating to maintain a spell. If your concentration breaks, the spell ends.However, the Magic section has a small addition that never made it in the combat section.
Magic Section wrote:You can't cast a spell while concentrating on another one.Now, I believe this inconsistency was an oversight, and probably missed when designing the Effortless Trickery feat. Effortless trickery allows you to maintain a spell as a swift, and has wording to maintain a second with move/standard. However, if you're never allowed to cast that second spell in the first place, then the feats wording on maintaining other spells is pointless.
Therefore I believe RAI was meant to allow the casting of other spells while maintaining the swift action illusion spells. RAW is either/or depending on what section of the book you are reading.
i agree with your assessment of RAI, i believe it was intended to allow spellcasting. But RAW you cannot cast spells. i play PFS with a gnome sorcerer who does this, using the feat mainly to have a constant major image around, using a phantasmal gem if i need to cast spells in combat and keep the image going.
having a major image up at all times is a lot more useful than i first imagined, so i don't consider it a worthless feat. for instance i always send it into rooms first, triggering any ambushes that might be in there, or i can turn it into a wall to block line of sight if i need to (at least until people start making their saves against it)

Dr Grecko |

i agree with your assessment of RAI, i believe it was intended to allow spellcasting. But RAW you cannot cast spells. i play PFS with a gnome sorcerer who does this, using the feat mainly to have a constant major image around, using a phantasmal gem if i need to cast spells in combat and keep the image going.
having a major image up at all times is a lot more useful than i first imagined, so i don't consider it a worthless feat. for instance i always send it into rooms first, triggering any ambushes that might be in there, or i can turn it into a wall to block line of sight if i need to (at least until people start making their saves against it)
That gem is pretty cool, and just what I was looking for for my current diviner wizard whom likes to dabble with illusions. However, it doesn't change the fact that you cant cast other spells with effortless trickery. Even without the feat you can keep a major image up all day long if you wish.
However, I realize now that since the restriction is only on casting spells, you could probably perform other actions, like activating a wand, scroll, ect... I could find the feat particularly useful for a Bard who uses illusions, since they don't rely on their spells as much as a typical caster.
That being said, since I don't play PFS, I'd rule you can cast other spells with the feat.

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who know where the other Staff of mastery are listed. It's written that every school has a particular staff, but i can't find the other one.
STAFF OF THE MASTER
Price 30,000 gp; Aura moderate necromancy; CL 8th; Weight 5 lbs.
Often given as gifts to apprentices upon reaching the rank of master, these staves come in eight different varieties, one for each school of magic. This particular staff is for the school of necromancy. Aside from acting as a +1/+1 quarterstaff, this staff allows use of the following spells:Ray of enfeeblement (1 charge)
Spectral hand (1 charge)
Vampiric touch (2 charges)
In addition, this staff can be used to cast spells using any metamagic feats known by the wielder without increasing the spell's level. This consumes a number of charges equal to the number of spell levels increased by the feat. No more than one feat can be applied to a spell cast by the wielder in this way. Using the staff for this purpose does not increase the casting time of the spell.CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Cost 15,300 gp

asthyril |

who know where the other Staff of mastery are listed. It's written that every school has a particular staff, but i can't find the other one.
PRD wrote:STAFF OF THE MASTER
Price 30,000 gp; Aura moderate necromancy; CL 8th; Weight 5 lbs.
Often given as gifts to apprentices upon reaching the rank of master, these staves come in eight different varieties, one for each school of magic. This particular staff is for the school of necromancy. Aside from acting as a +1/+1 quarterstaff, this staff allows use of the following spells:Ray of enfeeblement (1 charge)
Spectral hand (1 charge)
Vampiric touch (2 charges)
In addition, this staff can be used to cast spells using any metamagic feats known by the wielder without increasing the spell's level. This consumes a number of charges equal to the number of spell levels increased by the feat. No more than one feat can be applied to a spell cast by the wielder in this way. Using the staff for this purpose does not increase the casting time of the spell.CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Cost 15,300 gp
there currently is no other staff of mastery with statistics. if you need one (other than necromancy) you will have to talk to your GM

SpoCk0nd0pe |

For Incantatrix? Only PF metamagic? Ask your DM for 3.5 persistent spell or chain spell (be careful this seriously brakes the game, Incantatrix was considered one of the cheesiest options in 3.5, much more powerful then Io7V!).
I'd start with extend spell so you can extend your party's spells via cooperative meta magic. It's also useful for metamagic effect.
Else go for StreamOfTheSky's list, I pretty much agree it's the most powerful (in order) in most circumstances.
Don't forget to pump spellcraft by any means available.