What are ninjas and gunslingers good for?

[Eric Saxon]

Played a PFS game recently and had a player playing a ninja or a gunslinger, who keep disappearing after he took a shot at a monster??

He was either lvl. 4 or 5, I was playing a lvl. 5 cleric. Now I did plenty of healing and decent damage to some evil planars, with my positive energy bursts and well, this guy was useless, I think he did a total of 10-15 dmg all session long.

So I’m wondering if either of these classes is useless or if this guy didn’t know what to do, or if it’s a class that comes into its own at higher levels. Just wondering if anyone here knows the answer to some of my questions?

[Sior]

I've played with someone playing a Ninja before and they were not useless at all. Have yet to play with a Gunslinger. It could be that the player just didn't know how to play it effectively, or the dice hated them, or both.

[Thorkull]

We're not really into critiquing other player's builds unless they come looking for advice.

I will say that gunslingers can be very effective combatants, and ninjas are at least as good as rogues in that regard.

[Mark Moreland]

Eric Saxon wrote:

What are ninjas and gunslingers good for?

Igniting flame wars among gun-lovers/haters and Asian fantasy fans/Eurocentric fantasy purists?

Seriously, though, every class has the potential to be effective in certain circumstances and less-effective in others. The effectiveness of a character is also highly dependent on player choices, build, and the luck of the dice. Without more information on those three variables, I don't think there's much anyone can offer in terms of an explanation of your specific experience, but as Jon said, critiquing other players publicly on the boards isn't something that benefits the community.

For discussions of balance issues inherent in the design of the game, please see the general Pathfinder RPG Rules forum further up the page.

[RtrnofdMax]

The draw of gunslingers is they don't miss, high AC and hit points. They also have decent skill points and good class skills. Their critical hits are devastating.

I have only played one for 2 mods at level 1, but I never felt weak. I even misfired more than I critted.

[Quendishir]

As a gunslinger, I can tell you that when battle starts things die. Very fast. Attacking against touch AC out to 40', dealing 1d12+10 damage (at level 5) every round, being able to help the group as a non-combatant (high Perception and Survival) puts me in the top runner for effective class. Is it tier 1? No, it's not. But when I show up, things get stupid.

[Eric Saxon]

Ok, so gunslingers, should be able to do some serious dmg, is the conclusion and the player I was playing with just didn't know how to play.

As for my cleric, he's been effective in every game I've played, so I don't know what a less effective or a more effective class is.

I heal more than anyone else does in dmg. That means when you'd be -15 hp., I make you +45 hp. Which means any dmg you do after you took the first 45 hp. is really dmg I do. :D But I digress, I've got a bit of cleric pride.

[Matt Haddix]

It sounds like that player was doing some sort of ninja/gunslinger multiclass gimmick that wasn't very effective. Maybe it's one of those characters that needs a few levels to start to shine.

[Avаtar]

Even a multiclass gunslinger/ninja (which doesn't sound like a good mix), should still have done more than 10-15 damage throughout a whole session unless the dice were miserably bad.

[TOZ]

Quote:

What are ninjas and gunslingers good for?

Monster kibble.

[Zauron13]

Avаtar wrote:

Even a multiclass gunslinger/ninja (which doesn't sound like a good mix), should still have done more than 10-15 damage throughout a whole session unless the dice were miserably bad.

Good point on the bad dice.

Ninja/Gunslinger derail:

That build wouldn't be too bad. With a ninja's vanishing trick, you could still get sneak attack on your firearm. Combine the damage from guns with the sneak attack of a ninja.

Also, just because they did small damage doesn't mean they are useless. Did they have decent skills to help out, or other benefits?

[Eric Saxon]

When you face a 150 hp Gargoyle and almost face a TPK, you start noticing who is not contributing. And a guy who does 0 dmg during the whole fiasco isn't much to be impressed by. It wasn't bad dice rolls, he simply couldn't hit the gargoyle or do any dmg. It was the monk with his base 33AC (total 37AC after spells) and the barbarian w/adamantine sword who finally got it done, with me healing the heck out of the barbarian.

Now I've seen a fighter archer lvl. 4 do a crap load more dmg than this guy, doing rapid shot in a different scenario so I had an expectation that this guy would do some dmg. This guy at lvl. 4 did nothing. Couldn't heal and couldn't do dmg. Just plain ol' useless.

And skills decent or not, really are pointless if you TPK because your PC can't do any dmg.

[Jason Wu]

Ninja are more or less rogues with a different spin. They should be at least as effective.

Gunslingers can range from suck to decent early on, but really don't blossom til 5th level or so. Then they can quickly go to Oh My God levels of damage. And they hit all the damn time since they attack Touch AC.

Seeing as the character in question was multiclassed, he might need a couple more levels to start really shining.

However, if his schtick is stacking sneak attack on his gunshots, he's likely going to be disappointed. It's difficult to get it on more than the first attack in a round, and he will be expending a lot of resources to do it that might have been better off using on stacking other forms of damage.

-j

[Fahim Demir]

That's just bad planning. I know a gunslinger/ninja who, at level 4, goes invisible at the start of the round, hits with sneak attack and up close and deadly for 3d6 on a touch attack, and should only have to roll a four to hit (touch AC, no dex bonus).

At that point, if your gunslinger/ninja isn't doing damage, that's not the fault of the class. Of course, the gargoyle has crazy damage reduction, and most 4th level gunslingers can't afford a magic weapon, which is why gunslingers should always carry a wand of magic weapon, which the ninja can UMD. Spend a round buffing, while invisible, and now you're hitting, doing extra damage and bypassing that DR.

This doesn't sound like a class problem to me; it sounds like a player who needs some guidance in choosing equipment.

[Zauron13]

Wait, lvl 5 and a gargole?

Assuming hardness 10, it would be rare for a character to do damage, even the archer fighter (unless special ammo). Was he nerfed from the hardness? Yes.
At this point, he should have provided flanking, aid another actions, etc.
It is tough to afford adamantine at that level.
Also, not everyone is speced to roflstomp every combat, some prefer a role-play concept. In a regular encounter, he might shine, or sneak attack for insane damage.

Was the guy a ninja, Gunslinger, or both?
Also, as Jon said above, we try not to critique builds here.

[Matthew Pittard]

Eric: Our Gunslingers really kick in after 3rd+ level when we can do cool things with Alchemical Cartridges. People have remarked in games with my Musket Master how deadly I am in combat because of the touch AC. Its gets to the point where feats like Deadly aim are just used 24/7 so the damage potential gets huge. As for Ninjas. Locally the just dont survive long. Its a running curse locally. One gets to just before level 2 then dies or just before the next level and dies.

I think maybe the guy was a little unsure on how to play the Gunslinger. Keep in mind a Musket master at early levels (if this guy was playing that archetype) spends a round reloading effectively so is acting on every odd round.

[Jason S]

Gunslingers are good at killing things at high levels (7+). One of the best in the game. At low levels, not so much. Make your gunslinger was misfiring and he didn't mention it?

Everyone has their own opinion for what a "good character" might be.

[Eric Saxon]

Let's just say, I don't ever want to be in a party with this guy. Obviously not a proven operator, like some of the other players who I've played with.

And if it is because he cheaped out and didn't buy adamantine bullets, then he sucks doubly because he didn't prepare and decided to cheap out at the risk of everyone dying. Either a player needs to invest cash into his PC's weapons or needs to learn how to do damage past 10 hp to get through a DR 10. If he can't do either, he's likely to get my PC killed, which means my PC won't want to go on further adventures with him.

I know its a poor attitude but guess what, when you're spoiled like me and used to people being competent, its hard to tolerate someone who's half-assing it.

[Kyrie Ebonblade]

Let me guess on the Module in question.

Spoiler:

Dawn of the Scarlet Sun and the gargoyle is particularly nasty given it was a FIENDISH Gargoyle.

AS was said, 'results' might vary. I know IF this is the same module, the gunslinger in my game did pretty friggin good against the same Gargoyle and helped to hammer it down with 'Up close and deadly' and the right materials from his 'bullet cache'.

I agree.. with the right amount of planning and set up, a Ninja/Gunslinger should be evil in a fight. I mean.. a Ninja/Pistolero would be nasty with sneak attack/vanishing trick fun.

Sounds like the player in question was having bad luck and/or just didn't play up to his potential.

I have talked with a few novice gunslngers and we all swap information and tips around. Sounds like the player needs to do a little research.

[Jayne Munny]

Sounds like the reason I'll be always carrying special ammo as a gunslinger...

Silver bullets cost (1 + 2) / 10 = 3sp
Cold Iron cost (1 * 2) / 10 = 2sp
Adamantine cost (1 + 60) / 10 = 6.1gp

At low levels, I am going to be carrying at least 5 of each, and likely all of my "normal" bullets will be cold iron. The adamantine bullets don't really cost that much more than a paper cartridge (7.1gp with the powder), so should be insanely useful, when needed.

Eventually, I'll be carrying 10 Ghost Salt blanched bullets as well, just in case, as well as 10 of each of the others. Gets to be a lot of bullets, but, oh, well. I'll have to see how many I really need as levels go on, but not really expecting to need a TON.

This is in addition to the paper cartridges I'll be carrying, etc.

FYI - I am currently at 2nd level (haven't played at that level), and am a Musket Master (STR14, DEX16, CON14, INT13, WIS12, CHA10), with Point Blank, Precise Shot, and I'll be getting Deadly Aim at 3rd.

[Jiggy]

@Eric Saxon: Gunslingers get to add their DEX mod to damage... starting at 5th level.

Archers can get a composite bow to add +2 or +3 damage to every hit, as early as level 1. Ranger versions can add Favored Enemy on top of that, and Fighters can have +2 from Weapon Specialization by then. (And of course there's Point-Blank Shot for +1.)

But a 4th-level gunslinger? He gets his weapon die, and maybe +1 from PBS. That's it. And since he gets fewer feats than a fighter and might have to burn one on Rapid Reload (which the archer doesn't need to do), he's also not likely to have Deadly Aim yet.

The difference between a 4th-level gunslinger and a 5th-level gunslinger can be as much as 10 damage per hit.

So if he was 4th-level as you say, then no, you shouldn't be expecting archer-level damage. (And that's besides the fact that archers are top DPR contenders; not exactly a fair baseline to compare against in the first place.)

[Eric Saxon]

Thomas Graham wrote:

Let me guess on the Module in question.

** spoiler omitted **

Nope,

Spoiler:

a season 5 exclusive.

A real beast of a fight, since we played up (6-7). But if people actually invested in their PCs it should have been simple enough. Only reason we didn't TPK was because the Monk had 37 AC and could dodge an attack, when one got through.

[Bjornn the Brave]

Eric Saxon wrote:

Thomas Graham wrote:

Let me guess on the Module in question.

** spoiler omitted **

Nope, ** spoiler omitted **A real beast of a fight, since we played up (6-7). But if people actually invested in their PCs it should have been simple enough. Only reason we didn't TPK was because the Monk had 37 AC and could dodge an attack, when one got through.

Spoiler:

I think he means Season 4-EX. It was the Gargoyle at the fountain with a million attacks lol.

I was the Barbarian. My health was jumping up and down a lot. I once went -13 hp with a CON of 15. If it wasn't for Guarded Life rage power, I would of died.

[thistledown]

Jiggy's got the right of it. It's really hard to do good damage at low level gunslinger. My musket master took an early dip into inquistitor, so it's not a perfect example. But when I was Gun4/Inq1, I was happy with my crit for 40 damage. Then mid-con I hit Gun5/Inq1. And was now consistantly doing 40 damage per round. (Ok, so leveling seemed to make my dice happier too. But it was cool)

Pistoleros have an easier time of it - up close and deadly gives a nice bonus right from the start. But they're also on a lower base damage.

[Jason Wu]

I wonder if instead of the full Dex bonus all at once at level 5, perhaps the Gunslinger should get +1 from Dex at level 2, increasing by +1 every other or maybe every third level, eventually up to the character's max Dex bonus. It would allow a bit more power early on when most gunslingers are feeling the hurt, while flattening out the power spike they get at mid levels.

But I guess it's kinda late now.

-j

[Mergy]

So a bunch of low levels played up to a 6-7, and you were disappointed that some of the character builds weren't functioning?

This thread makes me sad. You're complaining about someone behind their back when you could instead be working with him to improve his build.

[CRobledo]

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:

So a bunch of low levels played up to a 6-7, and you were disappointed that some of the character builds weren't functioning?

This thread makes me sad. You're complaining about someone behind their back when you could instead be working with him to improve his build.

This +1. Well said Mergy.

[Kyrie Ebonblade]

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:

So a bunch of low levels played up to a 6-7, and you were disappointed that some of the character builds weren't functioning?

This thread makes me sad. You're complaining about someone behind their back when you could instead be working with him to improve his build.

I agree. Not everyone gets the ability to play up that well. Some folks take a bit of time to come into their own. My own build was 'meh' damage @ 5th (GS 4/Alch 1), now at 7th (GS 5/Alch 2) Kyrie has a LOT more bite and a bit of flexibility. I can hammer in 30-45 point hits, use my grenadier abilties to buff damage and toss in things like sicken to the mix and use extracts to do a LOT of fun things.

We did a adventure 2 weeks ago where I was literally the only one that could consistently damage 2 of the 3 foes we were fighting. (2 advanced Large Air elementals) as well as only 1 of 2 players who had a weapon to really hurt the 3rd critter (Glass Golems suck).

Part of the reason I do so well is I spend a LOT of coin on ammo and alchemical weapons. Part of it is I know my role in the fight, mobility and sniping, and part of it is I ask folks what they think I could do to improve things.

All of this comes with time though.. playing up and then blaming the character for what clearly he wasn't prepared for (do to prep or simply because of the class not giving him the peak points yet) instead of offering help and suggesting options isn't too helpful.

[Eric Saxon]

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:

So a bunch of low levels played up to a 6-7, and you were disappointed that some of the character builds weren't functioning?

This thread makes me sad. You're complaining about someone behind their back when you could instead be working with him to improve his build.

When you make a point of getting in the group because you've played all the other scenarios that are being offered at the same time slot. And then you ask the people who are ahead of you in que for the scenario to let you take their spot, you'd better be ready.

Sorry, the guy who's place was taken (Tony), is a proven operator, he would have shot the golem with his ademantite arrows and actually done damage, same as Bjorn did with his sword. Our group would have handled this business together but this guy whined about not getting to play on this time slot because he got on the list last and we almost got hosed for it.

If you're going to whine about not getting into a group that's playing UP then you better be ready to play UP and you better not cheap out and think that someone else is going to do your job because you won't spend 100gp to buy some decent ammo. Don't show up with your lackluster skills and take the spot of someone who's actually competent unless you are going to pull your own weight.

Does this attitude suck? If you are the player who is dragging everyone else down, then sure, my attitude sucks. Do I want to play with someone who isn't up to snuff? Heck no. Some people pull their own weight and some people don't make an effort and could cost your PCs life. Guess what, I don't want to play with a player who isn't making an effort and that's my prerogative.

Its not his build, he could have bought some decent bullets for a 100gp and been ready to rock out, with his knock out. (Yes, I know the real saying.) I'm realizing now that its not the build that was the issue, it was his cheapness and inability to grow with the game.

[Jiggy]

So without seeing his build, and after it being pointed out repeatedly that some builds (especially gunslingers) don't start doing big damage until a higher level than this guy was, you've managed to determine that the issue was *not* his build?

How exactly did you come to that conclusion?

[Eric Saxon]

His build may not be optimal but from the posts I've read it seems he was just being cheap and not spending cash on some friggin bullets.

[Kyrie Ebonblade]

Eric Saxon wrote:

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:

So a bunch of low levels played up to a 6-7, and you were disappointed that some of the character builds weren't functioning?

This thread makes me sad. You're complaining about someone behind their back when you could instead be working with him to improve his build.

When you make a point of getting in the group because you've played all the other scenarios that are being offered at the same time slot. And then you ask the people who are ahead of you in que for the scenario to let you take their spot, you'd better be ready.

Sorry, the guy who's place was taken (Tony), is a proven operator, he would have shot the golem with his ademantite arrows and actually done damage, same as Bjorn did with his sword. Our group would have handled this business together but this guy whined about not getting to play on this time slot because he got on the list last and we almost got hosed for it.

If you're going to whine about not getting into a group that's playing UP then you better be ready to play UP and you better not cheap out and think that someone else is going to do your job because you won't spend 100gp to buy some decent ammo. Don't show up with your lackluster skills and take the spot of someone who's actually competent unless you are going to pull your own weight.

Does this attitude suck? If you are the player who is dragging everyone else down, then sure, my attitude sucks. Do I want to play with someone who isn't up to snuff? Heck no. Some people pull their own weight and some people don't make an effort and could cost your PCs life. Guess what, I don't want to play with a player who isn't making an effort and that's my prerogative.

Its not his build, he could have bought some decent bullets for a 100gp and been ready to rock out, with his knock out. (Yes, I know the real saying.) I'm realizing now that its not the build that was the issue, it was his cheapness and inability to grow with the game.

Sounds like you're wanting us to automatically agree with you but without the other players side of things we can't. Some of what you have told us sounds like it night be his fault, but did he ask to play up or did the rest of the group do it? Did anyone in the group, clearly better prepared and from the sound of it experienced at playing up, offer to help out/give advice?

I know that I would NOT play up some of my characters in a season 4. My GS/Alch (pre-7th level), Cleric wouldn't get played up but I MIGHT play up my Wizard or Fighter. season 4 scenarios are rather potent and while I have not yet GM'd the scenario you're discussing I am prepping it for Megacon and let me say this:exclusives are among the nastiest scenarios out there. They are supposed to be particularly challenging and if you aren't REALLY sharp with your PC, you'll get eaten. Sometimes literally.

[Matthew Morris]

@Thomas

I've found alchemical weapons are the 'great equalizer' for a lot of the non-casty classes. Talyn's becoming very 'Batman' like for his cache of wands, potions, bloodstones and alchemical items. Our local GMs know that a Tangleburn bag is likely to be tossed at least once a session. :-)

[Kyrie Ebonblade]

Matthew Morris wrote:

@Thomas

I've found alchemical weapons are the 'great equalizer' for a lot of the non-casty classes. Talyn's becoming very 'Batman' like for his cache of wands, potions, bloodstones and alchemical items. Our local GMs know that a Tangleburn bag is likely to be tossed at least once a session. :-)

True. Kyrie, with her Efficent Quiver, Handy Haversack, Pathfinder Pouch and Endless Bandlier, looks like a walking endorsement for them. But remember this: Results can and DO vary. I surprise a lot of folks pointing out that some weapons have some effect no matter what. I have stumped a few GMs by pointing out that Tanglefoot bag can entangle if the target saves or that Ghast Stench Flasks sicken if they save.

I have yet used a tangleburn but I am considering it on the next restock. (Some of my chronicle sheets look like accounting forms on the back!)

[Eric Saxon]

Thomas Graham wrote:

Sounds like you're wanting us to automatically agree with you but without the other players side of things we can't.

I'm ok with it now that I've vented and my blood pressure is down again. But if you'd like a different point of view, Bjorn the Brave a few posts up was in the group and you could inquire about the game and if I'm really making things up.

[Kyrie Ebonblade]

Eric Saxon wrote:

Thomas Graham wrote:

Sounds like you're wanting us to automatically agree with you but without the other players side of things we can't.

I'm ok with it now that I've vented and my blood pressure is down again. But if you'd like a different point of view, Bjorn the Brave a few posts up was in the group and you could inquire about the game and if I'm really making things up.

I'm not saying you're making things up.. simply that the other player's POV might cover issues that you didn't in your post. (Such as bad rolls to hit, low damage rolls or such)

Just pointing out that both sides of the story are needing to be heard. That being said.. if you guys were playing up the Season 4 Exclusive.. Day of the Demon.. I got to admit you guys did well to survive.

I know most of my players WON'T play up a Season 4 without a solid group and a plan.

[Mergy]

Eric Saxon wrote:

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:

So a bunch of low levels played up to a 6-7, and you were disappointed that some of the character builds weren't functioning?

This thread makes me sad. You're complaining about someone behind their back when you could instead be working with him to improve his build.

If you're going to whine about not getting into a group that's playing UP then you better be ready to play UP and you better not cheap out and think that someone else is going to do your job because you won't spend 100gp to buy some decent ammo. Don't show up with your lackluster skills and take the spot of someone who's actually competent unless you are going to pull your own weight.

Elitism. You have someone who you feel wasn't pulling his own weight, and rather than help him you're whining about him on the forums. I'm using the word whining because if he whined to play, you're certainly doing so after the fact.

Eric Saxon wrote:

Does this attitude suck? If you are the player who is dragging everyone else down, then sure, my attitude sucks. Do I want to play with someone who isn't up to snuff? Heck no. Some people pull their own weight and some people don't make an effort and could cost your PCs life. Guess what, I don't want to play with a player who isn't making an effort and that's my prerogative.

You don't have to play with him. However, it's not your prerogative as a player to keep him out of a public game, even if you believe he 'isn't up to snuff'.

Eric Saxon wrote:

Its not his build, he could have bought some decent bullets for a 100gp and been ready to rock out, with his knock out. (Yes, I know the real saying.) I'm realizing now that its not the build that was the issue, it was his cheapness and inability to grow with the game.

I'm not seeing a lot of growing with the game from you either. If you feel you're better than this guy, then work with him. Don't come to the forums to tell us how bad a new or inexperienced player is.

[Silbeg]

I have one thing to say... remember that you always play up at your own risk. It only takes 1 player to say they want to play down, and you should play down.

So, if you see that you've got a possibly under-powered character in your midst, perhaps you should suggest you all play down, instead of all getting greedy and wanting to play up. If not, you have to live with the results of your decision. It should not only be the lowest level character's player that should be considering whether or not to play up or down, but the whole party.

'nuff said.

[Jiggy]

@Eric Saxon: You don't get to assume jack about the other players or their characters, nor do any of them have to answer to you. Whether you ask questions or not is up to you, and has no bearing on anything.

The proper response when you reach the conclusion that you're stronger than someone else in a given area is to either accept it and move on, or help them. There is no "baseline assumption" in PFS of needing to be at least X power level.

I once played in a scenario that got rather dicey, and one of the players was playing a 1st-level rogue with (if memory serves) about 16-ish DEX and 8-9 STR... without Weapon Finesse.

How did the rest of the table respond? Not by making sure they knew how much better they were, but by asking him about it kindly. Turns out he didn't know Weapon Finesse existed, and upon hearing it described his eyes went wide. "I like the sound of that!"

Boom, now he's a more adept player than he was when he started.

Sitting around telling people they'd better step it up if they want to roll with you is just being a dick, regardless of whether or not you're correct about your respective levels of system mastery. Dickish behavior that happens to be factually correct is still dickish behavior.

Learning from others doesn't just apply to building better characters, but also to being a better person.

[Jason Wu]

There is, in fact, a rule in PFS that states "don't be a jerk".

It applies to everyone.

-j

[Akerlof]

Jiggy wrote:

So if he was 4th-level as you say, then no, you shouldn't be expecting archer-level damage. (And that's besides the fact that archers are top DPR contenders; not exactly a fair baseline to compare against in the first place.)

Not only that, he also had at least two levels in Ninja if he was using Vanishing Trick, so he was, at best, a level 2 gunslinger, (level 3 if he was a level 5 PC, the OP wasn't sure.)

As for not having adamantium ammunition, I can see that as an understandable oversight: It's expensive and hardness is Very rare. My level 4 fighter archer has cold iron, silver and blunt ammunition covered, but doesn't have adamantium yet.

The other issue is, where's all this ammo being stored? As an archer, most GMs will let me get away with saying I have two quivers, 10 silver and 10 blunt in one, 20 cold iron in the other. Spreading out more ammo would be questionable without an efficient quiver, which is really hard to fit in at level 4. And my ammo is incomparably cheaper than a gunslingers. How's a gunslinger storing his ammo? Yeah, it's probably something he should have, but not surprising that he didn't.

I can see calling him incompetent for not having silver, cold iron, or magic covered, adamantium is more too rare to get really worked up over. But, you've also got an argument for him not being prepared because he doesn't have adamandium ammo.

By the way, did anyone use a knowledge skill that identified the enemy had hardness or DR/Adamantium, or did you just expect him to metagame it? You said it was a gargoyle, the bestiary gargoyle has DR/Magic, so where did the adamantium issue even come up?

As for playing up to 6-7 in a season 4, was the APL 5ish, or was this the only guy who was under leveled? _I_ wouldn't play up with an APL of 5, and if I had a group of 6-7s, I wouldn't expect much out of a 4.

The guy may have been a jerk, I don't know. It might have been really bad to play that PC in a season 4 at 6-7, again I don't know. His specific character may have been poorly built and unprepared, again I don't know, all I know is that he apparently didn't use adamantium bullets. What I do know is that you started a thread titled "WHAT ARE NINJAS AND GUNSLINGERS GOOD FOR?" saying a guy did 10-15 damage throught an entire scenario, but your cleric was teh awesome. You started yourself in a pretty big hole that you're going to have to dig yourself out of before getting an empathetic response from me, even though I play a cleric and don't particularly like gunslingers.

[Netopalis]

Going back to the original topic, my gunslinger is level 2 (Gunslinger 1/Urban Ranger Guide 1). He does 2d8+1d6+2 on a good turn, minus the 1d6 on an average turn. Not bad, really, for that level range. That number continues to go up at a fairly alarming rate.