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Hello guys.
Can we have spears in the game? With suitable animations, not using it as a slashing weapon (then we're talking halberds maybe).
I like spears.
Hoplite style would be awesome, not something i am expecting tho. Maybe even shield + throwing spear...? Ahh wet dreams. But doubtful.
I fully expect to see spears, pikes, halberds, pretty much all the usual suspects when it comes to pole arms. Petty essential in formation combat to open up all the potential tactical situations.
I figure its been covered, but I've not heard any word from the Devs, but I would LOVE to see javelins that can be thrown added to the game. The thought of a unit of Hoplite's all throwing their javelins, then drawing their swords and meeting the punctured enemy is just cool to me. :D
I hope they have all weapons from the core rules in the game. It seems likely since there was a Dogslicer as an opiton in the daily giveaways. But if we have to pick and choose, I hope that we have Spears and Polearms before we have Spiked Chains and Dire Flails.
Totally agree. If I'm playing a melee class I favor carrying a pole in addition to a sword. The extra reach lets me get off (usually) a strong attack as they are closing then I switch to my blade. In some games that doesn't work out well, but it's an effective strategy if viable. Same if I'm playing a Monk, I'll carry a staff and just drop it for hand to hand combat if the staff isn't effective. I feel like you do regrading chain type weapons, flails and horsemen's mace but there are some like a chain whip, meteor hammer that I'd love to see well done in a game.
I would suggest handling javelins just like bow and arrows are handled as far as aiming and flight. Oh sure an active aiming system a' la Mount and Blade would be ideal, but if it were a choice between having them added much later, post release with an aiming system, or added sooner in EE when exotic weapons are being worked on, I would pick earlier with a bow and arrow aiming system.
That's my thought on javelins.
Goblin Squad Member
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I just hope I can throw daggers, shortspears, and light hammers normally without having to buy and change out throwing daggers. A dagger or any other of these weapons can be used in range (thrown) or in melee. I hate that DDO makes you switch out your dagger for a set of throwing daggers if you want to throw it.
Definitely add short spears that function the same way as javelins. Throwing axes, hammers and daggers shouldn't be a problem I wouldn't think. They might even work off of the same mechanic as bow & arrows. I'm not sure I understand what you mean about not slotting say hammers if you have daggers in the ranged slot though? Are you saying to have 1 type of thrown weapon in the ranged slot, the others in your bag and be able to use all of them?
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Goblin Squad Member
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No, sorry. I'm saying if I have a Dagger, a Shortspear, or a Light Hammer, I should be able to throw it as a ranged weapon even though it is also a melee weapon. In the PnP Rules there are several melee weapons that also have a range entry. That means they can be thrown or used at melee range. If I am using a dagger, I should be able to throw if I want. I don't want to have a separate "Throwing Dagger" that I have to change weapon sets to use if I want to throw it. This is what they make you do in DDO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I am using a dagger, I should be able to throw if I want. I don't want to have a separate "Throwing Dagger" that I have to change weapon sets to use if I want to throw it.
I like the concept, but I'm curious how you think it should work. Can you only throw it once? If so, what happens to it after you throw it? Is it unusable in your inventory, perhaps as if you'd been disarmed? Is there a special ability you must activate in order to recover it? Or would it actually be on the ground, or even in a special section of your target's inventory?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I am using a dagger, I should be able to throw if I want. I don't want to have a separate "Throwing Dagger" that I have to change weapon sets to use if I want to throw it.I like the concept, but I'm curious how you think it should work. Can you only throw it once? If so, what happens to it after you throw it? Is it unusable in your inventory, perhaps as if you'd been disarmed? Is there a special ability you must activate in order to recover it? Or would it actually be on the ground, or even in a special section of your target's inventory?
If you throw it, it is on the ground or in your target. You would have to pick it up from the ground or recover it from your opponent after you defeat them, but usually, it would be unusable until then. That's why Meresiel carries eight of them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If it's a returning weapon then you keep it after you throw it. If not, then you keep several low quality ones and don't thread them, and throw them as needed. You would carry a main weapon and hold on to it melee. For example, Meresiel has her rapier as well as all the daggers. In the Wheel of Time, Aiel usually carry three spears so they can throw one or two and still have one to use in melee.
As for threading, will archers need to thread each arrow they shoot? Other than a powerful thrown weapon with the returning property, thrown weapons should be considered disposable. It would be nice if you can recover them after the fight, but not necessary.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's why Meresiel carries eight of them.
I think this is where it's going to get rough to map this into PFO. If Meresiel is carrying eight daggers, then it's possible they all have different keywords, which means that's eight different "weapon sets" - at least in the current design as I understand it.
Not to harp on it, but this points out one of the main reasons I've never been a fan of limiting which abilities can be "slotted". It's purely a game mechanic, and will consistently break the internal consistency of the game world. It's the triumph of "fun" over "simulation", but it also means a lot of other "fun" things are no longer possible.
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Ahhh, ok I get what your saying now. Something like a throwing axe, hammer, dagger, should have a melee score that you can use if you have one of them equipped in your hand and click on an attack that uses a 1H weap. For a short spear I guess you would have to use a pole arm attack. I can't see it being hard to have the option to use them as thrown or in melee combat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's why Meresiel carries eight of them.I think this is where it's going to get rough to map this into PFO. If Meresiel is carrying eight daggers, then it's possible they all have different keywords, which means that's eight different "weapon sets" - at least in the current design as I understand it.
Not to harp on it, but this points out one of the main reasons I've never been a fan of limiting which abilities can be "slotted". It's purely a game mechanic, and will consistently break the internal consistency of the game world. It's the triumph of "fun" over "simulation", but it also means a lot of other "fun" things are no longer possible.
Maybe it would be possible to create a stack of multiple weapons that share the same keywords. For example, lets say Meresiel's daggers are basic steel tier 1 daggers. The would each have the keywords Slashing, Piercing, and Thrown. Slashing and Piercing are the basic keywords for the weapon type, and thrown would allow you use use ranged abilities with the set. If so, then you can have them in a stack so the each count as one "Weapon Set" equipped, but if you throw one, then you simply have to draw the next dagger in the stack.
Of course, as you get more powerful daggers it becomes cost prohibitive to carry multiple daggers of the same type. That's when you really want to get something that returns to your hand when using thrown weapons, or switch to a bow or crossbow for a ranged option. This usually happens in the PnP around levels 6-10.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As someone who is very in to medieval and ancient martial arts, spears with proper animations would be awesome. Just seems difficult to do if you really want "proper" animations, as a spear is easily the most versatile weapon of any age. I will take a spear over a longsword any day, just because the sheer amount of options one has for attack and defense.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If it's a returning weapon then you keep it after you throw it. If not, then you keep several low quality ones and don't thread them, and throw them as needed. You would carry a main weapon and hold on to it melee. For example, Meresiel has her rapier as well as all the daggers. In the Wheel of Time, Aiel usually carry three spears so they can throw one or two and still have one to use in melee.
As for threading, will archers need to thread each arrow they shoot? Other than a powerful thrown weapon with the returning property, thrown weapons should be considered disposable. It would be nice if you can recover them after the fight, but not necessary.
Viking soldiers were known to carry 2 throwing spears then pull their axes for combat. Franks did the same with the Francescea throwing axe. The idea of being able to throw a weapon that can be used for Melee as well has been around for a long time. I agree we should have the ability to throw these weapons and recover them or have a "Returning" magical ability that can be applied to high level versions.
I can see this being accomplished easily by treating thrown melee weapons similar to ammo produced arrows. If you're using a weapon set with a "Throw" capable weapon you can purchase additional of that weapon to be stored in the "Ammo" slot or container. This means if a weapon is tossed you pull a new one from that available slot/container. When depleted you return to being weapon-less (in the event you're Weapon+Shield, or the remaining weapon becomes your dominate combat weapon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If Tier 3 throwing daggers are as cheap as Tier 3 arrows, but are also Tier 3 melee weapons, how does that impact the economy for Tier 3 melee weapons?
I don't have an answer, just the question.
I think a tier 3 dagger should be more expensive than tier 3 arrows, but not as expensive as a tier 3 longsword. However, I'm not really sure there should be tier 3 arrows. I always disliked that archers could use the arrows bonuses for any attack instead of the bow.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yet there are different types of arrows and each has quality of its own. Arrows are not simple missiles to make. Each shaft must be balanced and straights. the fletches have to be set and trimmed to not throw the arrow off. The arrowhead has to approapriate to its intended function. Warheads differ from bodkin. Hunting arrows differ from target arrows.
Your bows have different qualities as well, The shaping, balance between the strength of the respective limb must balance. Different woods have different flexes, different draw strength. Bows made from horn and laminates differ from those shaped from a single length of wood.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hopefully they'll support a wide variety of weapons in the game. I expect they'll probably breakdown weapons into either Melee or Ranged and treat "thrown weapons" either like bows (stay in your hand after use) or like arrows (stacks of ammunition that depletes when you use it).
Even though that's not realistic, it's alot easier for games to impliment that technicaly. If they have thrown stuff that falls onto the ground and you can pick up.....then they have to preserve all those objects in memory after they are thrown, and they have to have a janitor function that sweeps up and destroys those objects after a certain amount of time so they don't continualy eat up memory. It's why with MMO's, they usualy just have anything you drop get destroyed instantly...alot less resource and coding hassles for them.
They MIGHT be able to do something where one of the abilities you fired off when you had a thrown weapon equiped was a melee attack with it. Given you have something like (I think) 6 types of actions availble per weapon set... that sounds like it should be something pretty doable for thrown weapons.
P.S. Spears are cool and historicaly they were probably the most common weapon employed in warfare...both because of thier versatility of use and because they were relatively cheap to produce...much more so then a sword for example.
P.P.S. It's now commonly accepted that early knights....for example the Norman Cavalry at Hastings....used spears rather then lances and more commonly hurled them at the enemy rather then couched them for impact... the speed of the horse would still add alot of kinetic energy to a thrown spear and the rider wouldn't have to worry about the shock of impact themselves as with a couched weapon.
Even though that's not realistic, it's alot easier for games to impliment that technicaly. If they have thrown stuff that falls onto the ground and you can pick up.....then they have to preserve all those objects in memory after they are thrown, and they have to have a janitor function that sweeps up and destroys those objects after a certain amount of time so they don't continualy eat up memory. It's why with MMO's, they usualy just have anything you drop get destroyed instantly...alot less resource and coding hassles for them.
GrumpyMel, I'm not directing this at you. Your post just reminded me of something I've thought about.
I wonder at this. While it's true that if they allowed objects to be dropped it would require the server keep up with them, I wonder at how much load it really would be on the server. Many old graphical MUDs track everything that gets dropped, and in one game I used to play there could be 30 to 40 items on the ground in each spot you can step and 1 dungeon I recall having 8 levels with crap all over every inch of floor. I used to run that game on dial up, way before high speed Internet became available and the lag wasn't bad. But I'm not in the computer networking industry, and really there's no need to have everything that gets dropped tracked and kept up with.I don't believe it would be that difficult, or resource heavy to just put a flag on thrown items and have them be the only thing that can be picked up. They could just have the system auto wipe anything left on the ground after say 10 minutes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think the actual challenge is tracking everything that gets dropped, it's getting that data out to the clients.
So, it's relatively simple for the server to track that you dropped something on the ground somewhere. But adding all of those things into the stream of data being sent to the client becomes problematic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Even though that's not realistic, it's alot easier for games to impliment that technicaly. If they have thrown stuff that falls onto the ground and you can pick up.....then they have to preserve all those objects in memory after they are thrown, and they have to have a janitor function that sweeps up and destroys those objects after a certain amount of time so they don't continualy eat up memory. It's why with MMO's, they usualy just have anything you drop get destroyed instantly...alot less resource and coding hassles for them.
GrumpyMel, I'm not directing this at you. Your post just reminded me of something I've thought about.
I wonder at this. While it's true that if they allowed objects to be dropped it would require the server keep up with them, I wonder at how much load it really would be on the server. Many old graphical MUDs track everything that gets dropped, and in one game I used to play there could be 30 to 40 items on the ground in each spot you can step and 1 dungeon I recall having 8 levels with crap all over every inch of floor. I used to run that game on dial up, way before high speed Internet became available and the lag wasn't bad. But I'm not in the computer networking industry, and really there's no need to have everything that gets dropped tracked and kept up with.I don't believe it would be that difficult, or resource heavy to just put a flag on thrown items and have them be the only thing that can be picked up. They could just have the system auto wipe anything left on the ground after say 10 minutes.
It's not impossible to do (I played in some MUDS like that as well), there is just an extra cost (resource and $$$) to do it...which is why it's commonly avoided. Think of the scale involved...most big successfull MUD's have on average 2K users on at a time...and generaly not more then 10 players in a room, which is the limit of the view range of a player. An MMO might have 100K online at a time...and in a crowded fight/event you might have 50 players or more in view of one another...each object is something that the server must keep track of and report to every player that can view/interact with it. That starts to become a bigger deal when you scale up to MMO levels.
I'm sure an MMO COULD do it, if they wanted to do so. Most of the current ones just don't judge it enough bang for the buck when they have easier/less expensive ways to model things.
I see what you mean, I really wasn't considering the larger number or players, it could grow to become an issue pretty quick if they tried to track everything. As long as they can add thrown weapons into the game, there's no reason players can't just chalk up each dagger, or hammer thrown as lost. That's how most games handle them, just make thrown items able to be used in melee if equipped in hand.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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That may not be so bad if the objects were generic until examined.This is what EverQuest did. Everything on the ground just showed as a generic pouch until you picked it up.
Some equipment items (weapons in particular) would use their actual model; but all that was needed is 'there is an item at x,y,z with model A', which is only a few bytes more of communication overhead.
The reason that most items get the generic bag is because most items don't have a 3d model to display in the world. Fixing that takes more than computing assets, it takes artist time which could otherwise be spent on finding an uglier shade of purple for the new newbie armor.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's not impossible to do (I played in some MUDS like that as well), there is just an extra cost (resource and $$$) to do it...which is why it's commonly avoided. Think of the scale involved...most big successfull MUD's have on average 2K users on at a time...and generaly not more then 10 players in a room, which is the limit of the view range of a player. An MMO might have 100K online at a time...and in a...
Even though that's not realistic, it's alot easier for games to impliment that technicaly. If they have thrown stuff that falls onto the ground and you can pick up.....then they have to preserve all those objects in memory after they are thrown, and they have to have a janitor function that sweeps up and destroys those objects after a certain amount of time so they don't continualy eat up memory. It's why with MMO's, they usualy just have anything you drop get destroyed instantly...alot less resource and coding hassles for them.
GrumpyMel, I'm not directing this at you. Your post just reminded me of something I've thought about.
I wonder at this. While it's true that if they allowed objects to be dropped it would require the server keep up with them, I wonder at how much load it really would be on the server. Many old graphical MUDs track everything that gets dropped, and in one game I used to play there could be 30 to 40 items on the ground in each spot you can step and 1 dungeon I recall having 8 levels with crap all over every inch of floor. I used to run that game on dial up, way before high speed Internet became available and the lag wasn't bad. But I'm not in the computer networking industry, and really there's no need to have everything that gets dropped tracked and kept up with.I don't believe it would be that difficult, or resource heavy to just put a flag on thrown items and have them be the only thing that can be picked up. They could just have the system auto wipe anything left on the ground after say 10 minutes.
With a combat system where the user doesn't "miss" the objects could be stored on the intended target, if you manage to down the target then you'll have a neat stack of items to extract from that opposition be it player or NPC. If you fail to kill them then the objects could disappear or appear as part of the loot table for the victor in the event it's a player. This makes it so the combat encounter is still tracked and the items are thrown into a grey area until combat has ceased.
It would allow for recovery of thrown items without cluttering the ground. Not the neatest solution but not horribly difficult to implement as well as we have a targeted combat system, it'd simply transfer the item from the using players inventory to a invisible inventory on the target. When combat state has ceased that inventory becomes visible and the objects are assigned to both players until the loot action has occurred.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Regarding Spears, and forgive me for putting on my Military Historian hat again, come in numerous styles, including slashing (Celts and Norse used this type a lot). It would be interesting if PfO had different types of spears that fall outside the typical piercing damage that most people think of when thinking of a spear.
Given that PFRPG has three types of damage - slashing, piercing and blunt, some weapons that mix these up in variants would make for an interesting game, especially if skills allow for damage type specialization. A Dwarven spear with an axe head on the lower part might make for an interesting weapon, as an example, and D&D has had similar weapons like that Kender staff-sling thing from Dragonlance.
Just food for thought. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Regarding Spears, and forgive me for putting on my Military Historian hat again, come in numerous styles, including slashing (Celts and Norse used this type a lot). It would be interesting if PfO had different types of spears that fall outside the typical piercing damage that most people think of when thinking of a spear.
If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend a Korean film called Musa: The Warrior. It's set in 1375 China and has the best spearwork I have ever seen on film. It's pretty graphic, but there are thrusts, throws, spinning deflection strikes and cuts with the blade.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Regarding Spears, and forgive me for putting on my Military Historian hat again, come in numerous styles, including slashing (Celts and Norse used this type a lot). It would be interesting if PfO had different types of spears that fall outside the typical piercing damage that most people think of when thinking of a spear.
Given that PFRPG has three types of damage - slashing, piercing and blunt, some weapons that mix these up in variants would make for an interesting game, especially if skills allow for damage type specialization. A Dwarven spear with an axe head on the lower part might make for an interesting weapon, as an example, and D&D has had similar weapons like that Kender staff-sling thing from Dragonlance.
Just food for thought. :)
Well as it goes for the "Spear" it might be better to refer to the class of weapon you're looking at as a Polearm.
Because as it stands, you have the Pilum, Halberd, Spear, Short Spear, Long Spear, Lance, Long Axe, and many many more types of long Polearms that share spear or spear-like behavior and functionality. Some are dedicated to certain roles like Short Spears were made infamous by the Hoplites of Greece. They'd carry a short spear and a short sword of some variation.
While the Pilum was a Roman throwing spear design to have the tip bend on impact making a shield unusable or the man it strikes severely wounded.
If we can have representation of some of this it'd be awesome. But mostly I'd like to see the Basic Thrusting Spear, Slash and Thrusting Halberd, and Slashing Long Axe style weapons available as Polearm training.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The boundary between spear and polearm is fuzzy. When you start cutting, slashing and bashing you have probably crossed the boundary though.
Pole weapon skills might have a fairly complex skill tree to let you take advantage of the different features (keywords!) of different designs: while one may use the lucerne hammer as a slightly unbalanced spear, another may use it more like a sledgehammer and a third like a mancatcher.
but yes yes yes we need spears. The most important weapon in human history.
I guess we need to try and get a word from the Devs to see if they plan on having armor that is weak to different weapon types ie. chain weak to piercing, plate weak to blunt etc.. If they don't plan on having that, there's not much point in adding too many different types of pole arms.
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Goblin Squad Member
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UO had items, including weapons, that could be tossed on the ground and seen for what they were. The icon in your pack was the same as how they looked when tossed out into the game world. In a much earlier thread (go, Nihimon, go) Ryan said he was not interested in dealing with items on the ground due to the server issues it caused.
For arrows, I could swear I saw somewhere that they were being viewed as a consumable, which leads me to believe that once used, they might be gone (not recoverable). Maybe they'll just have a chance to be broken (UO had that as well...those that didn't break appeared on the ground, sometimes even stacked on top of each other).
For other missle-fire, I wonder if this would work - you throw it, it greys-out in your inventory and can't be used again in the battle. If you win and click on your fallen opponent's body (mob or player), it appears back in your inventory (you recovered it). If you run away from the battle, it's gone. If you lose, and it was a threaded item, you get it back. If you lose and it wasn't threaded, there's a chance the looting winner gets it. If not, it's gone with all your other unthreaded items.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Pole weapon skills might have a fairly complex skill tree to let you take advantage of the different features (keywords!) of different designs: while one may use the lucerne hammer as a slightly unbalanced spear, another may use it more like a sledgehammer and a third like a mancatcher.
I like the idea of spears/polearms being versatile weapons that require extended training to get the most out of. In the same vein, I would really like to see quarterstaffs implemented nicely. Especially it's defensive capabilities.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A viking with a spear. Saw this amazing pic and started thinking about using a short spear and a shield. I hope it becomes viable. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Spears rarely get the credit they deserve in RPGs. Used properly, they are accurate and deadly. Used in two hands they generate enough force to penetrate armour and bodies better than just about any other weapon.
Their very versatility and effectiveness is why they are overlooked - they are assumed to be simply cheap weapons to arm the peasants and therefore inferior to 'knightly' weapons - which completely overlooks the fact that they were developed into the vast array of polearms (mostly with spear points) used by the knightly classes on foot, and (as the lance) used on horseback by mounted knights. They are even used today in the form of bayonets.
Have a look on Youtube (don't just type in 'Spears' unless you like Britney - try 'Medieval Spears') for an interesting selection of spear fighting techniques (albeit safe versions without people being run through).
I would love to see spears. Most modern RPGs tend to ignore spears, even though they've played as much of a role in warfare as the sword, or bow. Spears and other polearms also introduce interesting benefits and disadvantages that other weapons simply don't have, thus spears create a whole new combat style for a character.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can't help but agree! It'd be especially awesome to see a cavalry charge being countered by pikemen...
Wasn't one of the original crowdforger polls in favor of mounts? Sure mounted combat - particularly formation mounted combat - is likely a ways off, but it seems like something inevitable to be included. At that point spears must become viable as a counter (if they aren't already viable weapons by that point).