Summoner Synthesists are as quick as melee fighters to play, skill monkey summoner would be as quick as a druid or a ranger its only master summoners who take forever.Are you allowing broken and the most DMed Block class available?( you can't even play this in organized play)
Summoner Synthesis
Summoner Synthesis
Summoner with Skill monkey Eidolon
Summoner Master Summoner..Race= Irrelevant
At 10th level pretty much destroy anything in the game...although combat might take 15 hours for 5 rounds of actual combat..
i'd put synth summoner at about magus or battle cleric levels in terms of speed (fairly quick, but might take a little longer if you've got to check a spell). fighters you just move and roll.
This has been settled for years.
druid, druid, druid, wizard
3.5 druids, maybe. Now it's summoner, summoner, summoner, summoner.
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How about we keep it 4 unique classes. That keeps this thread from derailing into a flame war vs a specific class. Not to mention most games rarely have 2 of the same class because people dont like getting their toes stepped on.
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@Soul Gambit - thanks for trying that out so extensively! Looks pretty good to me. What do you think?
Teams like Codanous, where classes are hyper specializing in things that aren't on the list (for example, Alchemist:Tank), aren't going to show up well. If I really wanted to I could create his specialties using the rubric - but w/e. In future versions, I may have editable classes, but hey, let's stick with this for now.
As an FYI, a -2 in a team area will far outweigh at +2. Also, having 2 abilities at 3 is better than having 1 ability at 6. Remember, we are trying to get a rounded out group. Get rid of those negatives for higher points!
(1)Beast-Bound Witch (CC, DPS, Buffing) - Unkillable after 10th level. CC and practicly anything else depending on what body you grab. You could be the Tank, DPS, Scout, ect.
(2a)Normal Summoner (CC, Tank, Buffing, Face) - Basic Summoner build. Highly able to fill multiple roles (which makes it a favorite of mine)
(3)Vivisectionist Alchemist(With one level of Rogue) - DPS, Skill Monkey, Scout/Trapfinder - It gives you the damage and scouting of a rogue and adds the utility of an alchemist.
(4)Paladin - (Tank, Healer, Buffing, Face) - A catch all Tank. He really shines in more than just tanking though which is why I like him as a tank.
You could replace the Summoner with the following if you dont like the Summoner. This also helps vs undead and haunts.
(2b)Life Oracle (CC, Healer, Buffing, Face) - Can heal if needed. Powerful in and out of combat healing. Good CC and buffing. And can be a FACE if needed. Solid choice for any group.
The 'Wad of Summoners' approach is probably the most dangerous party but I think they would have trouble dealing with higher level arcane casters messing with them from afar or using spells like dimensional lock to shut them down. The 20th level wizard can sit and pick his nose with a mind blank up while casting demand until he decides to take a nap, so you would probably need someone to counter that. Probably another wizard. So a wizard and a wad of summoners?
I dunno, I've always liked when everyone just makes a character and you adventure together. If you end up with a bunch of fighters than you're cool knights that run around and hit things. If you really need a cleric or a wizard well... that's called natural selection.
Half-Elf (tetsubo) LG Ranger 2 (trapper)/ Celestial (empyreal) Sorcerer 6/ Eldritch Knight (the rest); trapfinder, blaster/melee DPS, some skills, Perception, decent Stealth, sling w/ ammo and wands for range.
Half-Elf (tetsubo) LG Bard (Magician); buffing, blaster, melee DPS, UMD god, some skills, Perception, decent Stealth, comp longbow w/ ammo and wands for range.
LG Human or Aasimar <campaign dependant> Cleric of Iomedae; valor variant channel energy; domains: Glory (Heroism, Honor) & Good; 11th level nab Quicken SLA for touch of good; some skills, Perception, decent Stealth, spells for range.
LG Aasimar Paladin of Iomedae, sword-n-board; melee DPS, face, tank, some skills, Perception, decent Stealth, spells for range.
bard
witch
druid
fighter
Just for the heck of it, let's plug in Blueluck's party and Soupturtle's party into the "Round Out Your Party Tool"
Blueluck's Paladin, Ranger, Cleric, Wizard yields a General Team score of 2.25 and a combat score of 6.01. It looks like we are suffering from a lack of trapfinders and debuffers. Magic ability and healing are a little bit high (as every party member can do both), and we might get more mileage out of focusing on other areas.
Paladin, Ranger, Cleric, Wizard, Barbarian (Melee) yields a General team score of 5.98 and a combat score of 8.38. We've got trapfinding covered now, but are a bit low on debuffs and area attacks. The party also has great tanking material at this point, which, combined with good heals, makes for greatness!
Well, I certainly agree with your statement that my party has "a lack of trapfinders and debuffers." I don't think debuffing is a good use of actions on in most cases (there are exceptions) and I don't think trapfinding is worth going out of the way for.
In certain dungeon crawls, you will need a trapfinder, and the best one has Trap Spotter, which used to be only for a Rogue. Now Bards and Ninjas can have this in certain builds.
True, some DM’s say you get a perception check to spot a trap even if you don’t say so, etc, but some will make you just plain fall right into the spiked pit hidden in the corridor.
But of your dungeon is Gygaxian, this is a must. And no, druids and clerics can’t fill this role. A summoner just might with the right eidolon, but no eidolon gets Trap Spotter.
Now sure, not every campaign has this sort of dungeon or DM. But if you do, this is a must.
In certain dungeon crawls, you will need a trapfinder, and the best one has Trap Spotter, which used to be only for a Rogue. Now Bards and Ninjas can have this in certain builds.
I agree. Trap Spotter and Fast Stealth are my two favorite rogue talents.
My most PFS game included a team of 5-6 rogues, so I know what you mean. I'm not sold on the wad of summoners approach. A summoner are good if you have a team that needs a fighter and a wizard, but only has room for one more player. The Eidolon is a sub-par fighter an the Summoner is a sub-par wizard. I'm not sure, in a team with 4 of them, if they can really do all that well.
Has anyone ever actually seen a group of 4 summoners in action?
We almost did it for one game but the DM allowed psions and that was pretty much my only chance to play one and then everyone did their own thing. Thing is, 4 subpar fighters and 4 subpar wizards would probably outclass 2 good fighters and 2 good wizards (depending on level, see the wizard with mind blank picking his nose theory). Those eidelons can also be tooled out to be flying-pounce cruise missiles that crap damage the first round of combat.
That being said I think being in a 5-6 rogue party would be a blast, not optimized or anything but everyone would be using acrobatics to jump around, sneak attacking, running away from elementals, and being a bunch of dynamic heavily skilled people would be awesome. Probably doesn't shine as much in a society game as it does in a home brew tailored to that but still... it would be like oceans 11.
Oh man, you could totally introduce the characters by asking them what they're doing the moment they get asked what they're doing before the adventure. So you have the one guy doing that find the card game, one of them is in a bar fight, one of them is walking down the street stealing stuff like nobodys business etc etc etc
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The Rounding Out Your Party Tool gives this party a whopping:9.38/10.33
Alchemist: Vanilla/Bomber
Cleric: Undead Lord/Negative Channeler
Ranger: Urban Ranged
Summoner: Synthesist
Look about right?
Why of course going 4 alchemists is the best optimized party in PFS.
Tank/dps: Feral Mutagen expert, end up taking vestigial arm so you always have a potion in hand.
Face/Healer: High Charisma, High Int, works on making potions have the best effects and giving out some sweet healing potions and buff potions.
CC/DPS: Why of course you have a high dex/high int Bomb throwing machine, This is the guy that is maximizing his damage with thrown bombs and thrown weapons. Some of the discoveries give bombs some good battlefiend control, the Smokebomb, toss that on some bad guy spell casters or rangers then they have to blindly run around trying to get out of a 20 foot burst of smoke. Solid stuff.
Skill monkey: Alchemists need a high int for their infusions which gives them a boost, they get 4+int which is decent it adds up. The skill monkey is a trait shared by almost everyone in the party because they all have decent skill ranks. They get disable device which is a huge buff and since everyone has it, no reason every alchemist shouldn't have at least one rank in it.
All around The 4 alchemist can be the most optimized and efficient party and probably get along the easiest as well. Bit of squabling over some items but they are all unique which helps.
Thats just my opinion!
Don't forget to make him a Tiefling so he can use his tail to retrieve items.
@Broken Zenith: Normal summoner instead gives a 9.56 score. It's also, by and large, better.
Ive been trying to get that point across in like 10 threads about summoners. Nice to see even the math is in my favor.
Summoner > Synthesist
Other than that though I like Broken's group. Solid 4.