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I'm planning to play a druid Bear Shaman soon. And I'm looking at the bear companion stats.
Why on hell they suck soooooo much?
They start as Small creatures, while big cats are medium. They only advance to medium, while cats are large. The big cats have more str and constitution too! They should call tge spell "tiger's endurance" instead of bear's endurance.
I don't mind losing pounce, and rake, for flavor reasons. But WHY ON HELL is the lion companion bigger than the grizzly bear companion? And stronger and with more con too? Why is the bear a cub?
Edit: just noticed that the bear DOES NOT have grab. But the big cat has grab, pounce and rake. Dude, seriusly, the one who developed the animal companions is too much fan of big felines. Or too little fan of balance. There's no reason at all to take a bear over a lion, except fluff (another "you have to suck if you want flavor" game tax, I guess
I'm frustrated about this, too. Apparently their intent was for your Bear Shaman Druid to take a teddy bear companion.
If its not for a Society game, I'd work with your DM to create a version of the bear companion based off of the big cat chassis.
It's not a Grizzly, it's a Black bear.
If you search around you will find that the Devs said this was the intent, Bears stats are so good that if you made them Large it would be OP.
Again, this is not MY opinion, but has been stated.
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Sorry, but the stat issue is BS. Either tgat, or the developers forgot about it with the big cat.
The big cat has more STR. More Dex. More Con. And in adition, it has more CMB bonus (because of size), more claw and bite damage, pounce, rake and grab. So if they were looking for "Overpowerness" in the bear, they forgot about it with the big cat.
It's not something about being overall better. A tiger is better than an eagke or an alligator, but you could make a point about them being able to swim or fly, which give you options
The bear is STRICTLY WORSE than tge tiger, at EVERYTHING.
To the point I could ask my DM to have a cat, tell him never use pounce or rake, making him 2 points of permanent DEX drain, an it stiill would be strictly superior to a bear.
I wonder why game deveopers like to clutch the games with pointless options that are strictly inferoor in everything to otger available options. Except as those "you-suck-because-of-flavor" game taxes.
It's not a Grizzly, it's a Black bear.
If you search around you will find that the Devs said this was the intent, Bears stats are so good that if you made them Large it would be OP.
Again, this is not MY opinion, but has been stated.
Ok. Why do i have to have the crappiest bear as my companion? Why don't i get the option of a grizzly? Or a Kodiak? Or, hell, a polar?
Those dudes are behemoths that rival ligers! That's what I want.
IM not attacking you. I realize those weren't your decisions. But it annoys me.
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Bears start with a higher Str and AC. They get their big bump at 4th instead of 7th. Looks to me like they are better in a low level or E6 environment. After 7th level the cat is better unless you are going a lot of places a Large creature won't fit.
The starting natural armor bonus of a Black Bear is +4. A lion has +3, and a Tiger has +3 as well. But the Bear companion starts with DEX 15, while the big cat starts with DEX 17. So there's no gain there. The 2 extra points that bears have until the cat improves only means something to hit, because the higher average damage die of the cat makes for it, and the bigger size makes for it in CMB and CMD too. Plus the cat has rake and pounce, which makes it incomparably better, and grab, which irks me to no end, because tiger companions do Bear Hugs better than bear companions.
Ironically, the thing that bears do better than tigers, is stealth, because they get +4 for being smalls. Oh, the irony. :)
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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The starting natural armor bonus of a Black Bear is +4. A lion has +3, and a Tiger has +3 as well. But the Bear companion starts with DEX 15, while the big cat starts with DEX 17. So there's no gain there. The 2 extra points that bears have until the cat improves only means something to hit, because the higher average damage die of the cat makes for it, and the bigger size makes for it in CMB and CMD too. Plus the cat has rake and pounce, which makes it incomparably better, and grab, which irks me to no end, because tiger companions do Bear Hugs better than bear companions.Ironically, the thing that bears do better than tigers, is stealth, because they get +4 for being smalls. Oh, the irony. :)
I was comparing initial stats, as I said the cat is clearly better after level 7. Bears start with +2 natural armor, and small size, to large cats' +1.
Here's a breakdown:
Level 1:
Bear AC 15, bite +4(1d4+2), 2 claws +4(1d3+2)
Large cat AC 14, bite +2(1d6+1), 2 claws +2(1d4+1)
level 4:
Bear AC 16, bite +8(1d6+5), 2 claws +8(1d4+5)
Large cat AC 17, bite +5(1d6+2), 2 claws +5(1d4+2)
level 7:
Bear AC 18, bite +9(1d6+5), 2 claws +9(1d4+5)
Large cat AC 19, bite +9(1d8+6), 2 claws +9(1d6+6), pounce, grab, rake
So yes the cat is markedly better after level 7 - before that, not so clear. Bear would certainly be a very viable companion for a low level game.
I'm less concerned with the negligible difference between the two statistically at low levels.
I'm annoyed that i can't get a large-sized, high-strength bear.
Agreed. I allow my players to have large bear companions, with some modifications.
This guy gets it! :D
Everybody wants to be Grizzly Adams. :P
Well, if I cant have a grizzly bear, I'll take a Panda Bear.
Then I'll take a few levels of monk, and will be kungfu panda.:)
I feel a big part of the problem is simply that the large cat is too good.
My friends and I were at one point comparing a level 8 large cat companion and a level 8 fighter.
The fighter wasn't crazy optimized but was quite solidly put together.
The cat had been pumping STR but if memeory serves had no magic items to speak of and no buffs from the druid.
If our analysis was correct odds in that particular fight were about 50/50. It mostly came down to initiative and will the cat's grapple be sucessful.
Maybe it's just me but when a class feature can keep up with an entire class it may be too good.
- Torger
There's always the option of going Beast Rider Cavalier. At 7th level they get the option to apply a unique Large template to any creature that is normally large, but isn't usually as an animal companion.
Of course, I still think Paizo dropped the ball by not putting out a large bear by default...
I feel a big part of the problem is simply that the large cat is too good.
My friends and I were at one point comparing a level 8 large cat companion and a level 8 fighter.
The fighter wasn't crazy optimized but was quite solidly put together.
The cat had been pumping STR but if memeory serves had no magic items to speak of and no buffs from the druid.
If our analysis was correct odds in that particular fight were about 50/50. It mostly came down to initiative and will the cat's grapple be sucessful.
Maybe it's just me but when a class feature can keep up with an entire class it may be too good.
- Torger
Have you met my friend The Summoner? :P
I'd have to see your fighter build and matchup, but i will agree — that for standup melee — the big cat is superior to most other companions.
Anything with pounce is always superior to anything without it. But the fact the cat has grab, and the bear doesnt, is absurd. Just like you can have hippos, elefants and dinosaurs, but a kodiak bear is "overpowered" because it is large
I'd make it like the companion in the book, except make it medium/large and with grab when advanced. With that, I'll be happy. It is much worse than the big cat, but if I wanted an OP companion I'd be a tiger shaman (which has poubce bith on himself AND the companion).
I just want to have the option to get a bear companion. One that is larger than a dog, and can grab and bear-hug things
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If you weren't playing a Bear Shaman, I'd suggest;
Use Big Cat statistics. Scratch off Pounce and Rake, since they aren't 'bear-ish' (or just never ever use them, if your GM refuses to let you mark them off).
Swear to high heaven that your orange and black striped companion is a rare 'Tien Striped Flame Bear' and that you're the darn Druid, and nobody can tell you what is or isn't a bear.
Since you are playing a Bear Shaman, I'd suggest changing to another Archetype or Class to have a less crappy Companion, if you can't get permission to use Big Cat (minus pounce and rake) stats for your 'bear'.
I statted a large bear companion a few months back.
The whole thing is absurd. I have no idea why Paizo refuses to write one up. The animal archive would have been a good place to rectify this.
Or just have the animaals advanced in size later like 10th level, why they stop advancing at 4th or 7th I don't understand.
Have you met my friend The Summoner? :P
I'd have to see your fighter build and matchup, but i will agree — that for standup melee — the big cat is superior to most other companions.
I tend to think of the summoner as the eidolons companion and not the other way around. A druid w/o his companion is still a force to be recconed with. Summoners I feel less so. Though I supose they do still have a ton of standard action summons to play with. *shrug*
But yes the summoner takes the concept of the the powerful companion to the Nth and it likely has bigger balance problems than the large cat. That dosen't mean that the large cat isn't a balance problem.
- Torger
Well summoners can summon for minute level as standard action, as well as casting haste at level 4, has black tentacles, create pit spells, and craft potions of dimensional door for tge party. :)
Anyways I'm not looking for an eidolon-level companion. Just a bear that looks like a bear and not an anteater
Lol. I wasn't suggesting as much. I just thought it was a fun correlation to make given the complaint against the Lion companion.
I just gave the bear shaman in my group the option to use the stats of the T-Rex. Also makes it easier due to not having even more attacks to roll on the druids turn.
Take a domain, find an actual grizzly bear, befriend it using animal empathy, take it as a monstrous cohort with leadership, cast awaken animal on it, and advance it with barbarian levels.
I actually like this...
The bear cub companion is for those that would like to play a character similar to Ator the Fighting Eagle:
Ator the Fighting Eagle. 1:06 to see the bear cub. :)
Just ran the numbers for all the land animal companions. All animals are fairly even. Best AC at all levels goes to the Boar. Sheer Damage goes to the Crocodile at all levels. The Big Cat & Elk only max their damage output at 7th level. Even then, it's only a d8 vs. a d6 over the bear & ape. Looking at the raw #'s of it (& that's where this complaint stims from), all animal companions are fairly equal to each other. It's a matter of what flavor you want. If you want a bear, get a bear. Remember that as a druid you're capable of casting a variety of buff spells on guess who? That's right, your animal companion.
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Just ran the numbers for all the land animal companions. All animals are fairly even. Best AC at all levels goes to the Boar. Sheer Damage goes to the Crocodile at all levels. The Big Cat & Elk only max their damage output at 7th level. Even then, it's only a d8 vs. a d6 over the bear & ape. Looking at the raw #'s of it (& that's where this complaint stims from), all animal companions are fairly equal to each other. It's a matter of what flavor you want. If you want a bear, get a bear. Remember that as a druid you're capable of casting a variety of buff spells on guess who? That's right, your animal companion.
Sorry, but you are wrong.
At 7th level, the Big Cat has more in everything than the bear. In everything.
And the difference between a Big Cat and other pets isn't "a d8 over a d6 in bear".
The bear charges and do 1d6+5. The Tiger charges and do 1d8+6 +1d6+6 +1d6+6 +1d6+6 +1d6+6 + grab. So a charging bear can do 11 point of damage max, and a charging tiger can do 62 damage max, plus grab. That's not "fairly equal", period.
Look up the rules for Grab, Pounce & Rake. Grab allows a free grapple attempt. Pounce allows the Bite & 2 Claws attack & Rake ability. However, the loophole is:
"A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn."
Also, a charging bear IF hits can deal a max of 18 (2 claws). Still the Big Cat in this one singular instance is capable of dealing more damage, but how I guess it comes down to how often do you get the chance to "charge" in combat. I would say the first round of combat. Any rounds after that is typically involve little movements to reposition or close a gap between enemies.
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What Atarlost said. You need to look up the rules.
A Bear can't attack with two claws when charging. Only one. The Big Cat *does* rake when pouncing, explicitly said so.
You charge roughly half the combat rounds. And after the round of charge, you still can rake with the Big Cat if he made a Grab, which keeps the Big Cat doing significantly more damage. Not only that, but he *can* grab. Which is in itself a GREAT adventage over the Bear, who can't grab.
So the tiger is roughly 5 times better in the charging round, and "only" rougly twice as good in the second and following rounds. Plus it has better Initiative, and AC. And much better CMB and CMD, because of size and better STR and DEX. And better saves too, because of better stats.
The big cat is the King of the Jungle in druid companions. Only the Allosaur can compete (Because it has rake and pounce as well).
However, I do not ask to have Bears as overpowered as big cats. Just being bear-size and able to bear-hug would be nice.
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All they need to do is give druids the option to bump a medium companion to large the way beast riders can. The bear would still be objectively inferior to the big cat or most of the dinos, but at least it wouldn't be as bad.
You know it's bad when the animal companion version of a creature is weaker than the summoned version.
I had this image of a druid that rode a panda into battle but table flipped once I realised all the obstacles involved. The size thing really is a huge mistake and naturally I think everyone assumes bears should do solid punches.
OK, so what is a reasonable fix?
Should the Bear be made more powerful, or the Cat be made LESS powerful?
I think that is the question.
Let's say you just went ahead and allowed the bear to grow to size Large at 7th or 8th level. In what way would that be unbalancing?
Let's say you just went ahead and allowed the bear to grow to size Large at 7th or 8th level. In what way would that be unbalancing?
Just made it large no stat change? Probably wouldn't be overpowered at all. Makes it harder to take around and changes some maneuver modifiers at worst.
One workaround may be to enhance the full-attack damage, since that happens every round after the first, whereas the charge only happens once. Similarly, enhance to-hit chance, since that applies to all attacks. I know the big cat has as many attacks as the bear, but it narrows the gap quite a bit, especially against tough opponents who would survive the first / surprise round.
My suggestion is to give the critter Teamwork feats. This requires Int 3+, which leads to a human with Eye for Talent, or an Oracle of any race.
Some good options:
Precise Strike
Paired Opportunist
Since your companion will have Int 4 by now (most likely), you can also teach it to understand Common and make a lot of awkward tasks a lot easier - not to mention dispose of all tricks.
I know it's cheesy, but this is a RAW discussion. Once you start houseruling things, the whole problem isn't there to begin with, since Pounce wouldn't survive the kind of revisions a sensible GM would impose.
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How about this solution.
Start with cat stats except:
+2 str, + 2 con, +1 nat armor, -2 dex, - rake, - 10ft speed
7th level advancement:
+10 str (4 above cat total), +4 con, +2 nat armor, -2 dex, Special ability Grab.
compared to cat at 7:
+4 str, +2 con, +1 nat AC, -2 dex, -10 speed, - pounce - rake.
After seeing this I'd even boost the con by 2 more for bear at 7... Pounce and rake are that good.
