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First off I would have to disagree that Mirror Image is overpowered.
If I understand your question Whirlwind attack (feat) would only give you one attack against the target with Mirror Image on it. Arcane Sight (spell) would help detect the presence of Mirror Image on a target but would not help exactly locate the target for an attack any better than just an outright attack. I do not know of any specific FAQ on these interactions.
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I also don't think mirror image is over powered. In fact, there are plenty of things one can do to over come the spell
Mirror image simply creates 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total.
Attacks (from a weapon or a spell that requires an attack roll) that hit either hit the caster or destroy one of the figments. The most figments a high level caster can have is only 8. A warrior can crash through those figments pretty quickly, especially a higher level one with multiple attacks.
Also, spells and effects that don't require an attack roll affect the caster normally so magic missiles, fireballs etc will still toast the caster quite nicely regardless of his mirror image figments.
At 1,800gp it isn't cheap, but dust of appearance will do the job.
"This powder appears to be a very fine, very light metallic dust. A single handful of this substance flung into the air coats objects within a 10-foot radius, making them visible even if they are invisible. It likewise negates the effects of blur and displacement. In this, it works just like the faerie fire spell. The dust also reveals figments, mirror images, and projected images for what they are. A creature coated with the dust takes a –30 penalty on its Stealth checks. The dust's effect lasts for 5 minutes."
Actually blind fighting is a good idea. Specially a good warrior, you have 50% chance of pummeling the wiz. As the wizard has other options. Remember in higher levels Mirror image is useless but resourceful and the warrior should have a wizard in his party to help him overcome the other.
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Depending on feat selection, a fighter can drop the miss chance to 20% with a reroll by simply closing his eyes.
It's not something you'll find on a forum build, but I have seen it in groups where cooperation is used. I've witnessed very effective melee characters built to take advantage of magical darkness supplied by casters.
One thing that a lot of people forget, is that if you miss by 5 or less, a figment is still destroyed
If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss.
Thus, a large number of attacks can frequently destroy many of the images. Natural attackers, two weapon fighting and the like can shatter many of the images in one turn.
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Closing eyes helps .. but remember you must suffer all the penalties for being blind.
Blinded: The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Perception checks based on sight) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) against the blinded character. Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.
Just don't let the mirror-imaged arcanist's rogue friend catch you with your eyes closed.
Closing and opening your eyes is a free action all you do is close your eyes and attack then open them again
Closing and opening your eyes is a free action all you do is close your eyes and attack then open them again
At the table we take turns. In the game world everyone is fighting all at once. If you close your eyes it could very well open you up to being flat-footed.
With that said I don't see any rules for closing your eyes as a free action, and opening them. Also doing it for an entire full round attack would not allow you to fight and defend as well as you normally would.
We take turns around the table... and in the game
I know that it is designed to be all taking place at the same time but if you are going to close your eyes to make someone easier to hit then go all the way and do it without screwing yourself
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I would argue that closing your eyes, or giving yourself the "blinded" condition, would have to be more than a blink or two in order not to be fooled by the Mirror Image spell. Hence, it would have to be long enough to suffer the consequences of that condition until your nest turn.
As it has been stated before, actions which happen simultaneously have been segregated into turns in order to facilitate game play. This would mean that the rogue behind you would be attacking while you were closing your eyes to all other dangers in order to not be tricked by the Mirror Image spell.
Having played in the Pathfinder Society now for 5 years, which takes the more stringent rule interpretations, I have not seen this tactic ruled in any other way.
If your GM buys the argument that you can get all of the benefits of being blind without any of the penalties, good for you. I would not expect that take to be universal.
I would let someone close their eyes, attack with 50% miss chance, then reopen them again all in the same turn.
But doing so would provoke from everyone since you've left yourself open.
Well sense this tactic is likely to be used a against a wizard or some such does it really matter if they get a opportunity attack most of them couldn't hit any kind of decent AC.
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Why in the world would closing your eyes help? Would not each image still make sounds, and scents? How in the would would you really be able to know that you are all of a sudden striking at the true person when you could not tell when you had an extra sense to try to tell the differences? Maybe a low level spell does not have scent and sound but if it can take on the new image of being burned after a fireball, I would think it works well enough that closing your eyes would not turn it off.
I think people are just taking their knowledge of the game rules about fighting while blinded on in 50% type darkness that people think this would be a viable answer. Has anyone with professional credits actually said this tactic should work?
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This is what happens when someone doesn't bother looking up the source material. I am guilty as charged. Maybe my questioning if a low level spell could handle the sounds and scents was indeed accurate. At least that earlier speculation prevents me from wanting to kick myself. I still think it is rubbish though. How likely are you to be able to hear and distinguish their steps from others in battle? Same goes with their scent. Especially when people are so visually oriented.
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So....what a "poor" warrior can do vs Mirror Image?
Cleave/Great Cleave? no.
Whirlwind? no.
Arcane Sight potion? useless.
True Sight potion? no, True sight is a 5 level spell, cant be "put" in a potion (by the way, im not sure that true sight is able to detect the real target).
So, the only way is a totally meta-gaming blind combat?I agree that this spell is not OP. Its a 2nd lvl spell, in the same class as invisibility. It costs nothing for an attack to swing. it cost the caster 3 levels of lower HD, base attack, feats, etc to get there and he can only cast it so many times a day. Sorry to tell you but magci is kinda powerful.
Now what can be done? Close your eyes. Thats it, you just knocked it from 12% chance or whatever to 50%. I wouldnt call it metagame, but is a bit cheap. Spell requires sight to work. Now you're screw verse others but thats still pretty nice. While no spells will let you see the true caster easily at low level i do argue that it limited help. Not going to help versus AoEs (including mundane like oil), gazes, yada yada.
It is a classic trope of martial warriors to close their eyes and use their other senses to overcome illusions, so i don't see why it would be metagaming.
Generally it is linked to forms of unarmed combat, but that isn't mandatory: A fighter is as much a martial artist as a samurai or a monk.|
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In my personal opinion Mirror Image was a lot less busted in 3.5 when it created images and the attacker was allowed to choose which image to attack, and could cleave through images.
Invisibility seems nice, but a simple flour pouch thrown into the same square cuts that miss chance down from 50% to 20%
Back on the subject of Mirror Image though, the last time I read a thread on PF Mirror Image, the general consensus was that one could not cleave it because if they hit an image, they weren't hitting their target (the mirror image caster)
Here's my question. What the hell kind of logic is it to say a warrior can't just look at this group of clones infront of him, pick one, and swing for the fences? Sure the spell's mechanic makes sure its one of the images that die before the caster, but it makes no sense to me that this spell (which isn't even a compulsion) somehow controls the attacker's ability to choose what to target.
There is nothing guaranteeing that you hit an image instead of the caster, it is a even split chance between all the images and the caster, so if there are 1 caster and 8 images, you roll a d10, rerolling if you get a ten. 1 (or whatever number you like) is the caster, the other 8 numbers are the images.
It is exactly what you describe; you chose one of the shifting images and hit it. If the dices are with you, he is the caster. Before your next attack the image shift, merge and move, so you can't be sure which is which and you can't select the same image even if the previous hit was a successful one.
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Why in the world would closing your eyes help? Would not each image still make sounds, and scents? How in the would would you really be able to know that you are all of a sudden striking at the true person when you could not tell when you had an extra sense to try to tell the differences? Maybe a low level spell does not have scent and sound but if it can take on the new image of being burned after a fireball, I would think it works well enough that closing your eyes would not turn it off.
I think people are just taking their knowledge of the game rules about fighting while blinded on in 50% type darkness that people think this would be a viable answer. Has anyone with professional credits actually said this tactic should work?
1) It is a spell make to fool people that use sight as their primary sense. Our brain is wired to elaborate visual input first, sound second, all the other stuff after that. If we see something we normally react to what we see well before than we react to what we hear or smell.
2) Unless you have very advanced senses (blindsight) all that sound and scent do is to pinpoint a square. But the images are all in the same square. So even if we use our other senses to locate the enemy, all that we get is to identify the square in which he is. but sight already allow us to know in which square he (and his images) is.
3) Mirror image reflect the current aspect of the target. Every wound, burn or other change is reproduced instantly.
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Why in the world would closing your eyes help? Would not each image still make sounds, and scents? How in the would would you really be able to know that you are all of a sudden striking at the true person when you could not tell when you had an extra sense to try to tell the differences? Maybe a low level spell does not have scent and sound but if it can take on the new image of being burned after a fireball, I would think it works well enough that closing your eyes would not turn it off.
I think people are just taking their knowledge of the game rules about fighting while blinded on in 50% type darkness that people think this would be a viable answer. Has anyone with professional credits actually said this tactic should work?
1) It is a spell make to fool people that use sight as their primary sense. Our brain is wired to elaborate visual input first, sound second, all the other stuff after that. If we see something we normally react to what we see well before than we react to what we hear or smell.
2) Unless you have very advanced senses (blindsight) all that sound and scent do is to pinpoint a square. But the images are all in the same square. So even if we use our other senses to locate the enemy, all that we get is to identify the square in which he is. but sight already allow us to know in which square he (and his images) is.
3) Mirror image reflect the current aspect of the target. Every wound, burn or other change is reproduced instantly.
I completely agree with Diego on this one.
All of the images are occupying the exact same square so even if all of them are making sounds or giving off scents, and that is very questionable, you aren't going to be able to differentiate between them like you would with actual sight unless you have some really acute senses like blindsight.
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An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply).I guess that settles the issue. A warrior who closes his eyes still has the ability to see the figments, so would not count as blind.
Last time I checked, I was unable to see anything with my eyes closed.
If a character wants to deny himself the ability to see, he is free to do so, with all the associated benefits and penalties.
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"Eyes closed" is different from "blind." Blinded is a game condition, and while you can close your eyes to avoid gaze attacks, mirror image specifically calls out being blind.
To put it another way: allowing someone to close their eyes to negate a second-level spell is cheap. Name another second level spell whose effects are avoided by a free action that you can do every round. Maybe if it were a first-level spell, but at that level of power the illusion should be powerful enough to handle eyelids. Maybe if the fighter closed her eyes before the spell was cast and never opened them, I'd allow it, but as soon as you open your eyes after hitting, the illusion magic kicks in, and when you close them, those mirror images are burned into your memory.
Obviously, there's no official ruling, but I wouldn't allow it, and I wouldn't do it to a player.
Blind isn't the only thing called out. The spell says:
"An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply)."The sentence about invisibility and blindness is a conclusion based upon the fact that an attacker must be able to see the figments. There are other effects that prevent you from being able to see the figments that also aren't spelled out, being more than 5' away in a fog cloud for instance.
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Blind isn't the only thing called out. The spell says:
"An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply)."The sentence about invisibility and blindness is a conclusion based upon the fact that an attacker must be able to see the figments. There are other effects that prevent you from being able to see the figments that also aren't spelled out, being more than 5' away in a fog cloud for instance.
This
Another perfectly valid solution to Mirror Image or Displacement would be darkness. I am unable to see you and, hopefully, you are unable to see me.
Besides that second level spell is still gives them a 50% miss chance combined with other penalties not bad. This way you don't even run down on mirror images when they miss.
As Dust of Appearance would work to reveal the caster, would the spell Glitterdust, which is used to make Dust of Appearance, work as well? It does not specifically say so, but logic would seem to indicate it would.
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@Ganymede: You are making the assumption that closing your eyes for 1 sec is sufficient to negate the illusionary effects. Avoiding the gaze attack scenario is a good analogy to trying to accomplish bypassing the mirror image - it takes longer than blinking you eyes to avoid a gaze attack. If you are not going to be fooled by the illusion, you have to use the force Luke - don't trust your eyes, they can deceive you.
All kidding aside, I think a good portion of the advise is that if you want to get the benefits of negating the most annoying part of Mirror Image, you have to take the penalties. The hardcore answer is that there is no way to do it unless you are really blinded or the target has total concealment from you.
You could also invest in some Dust of Appearance as suggested by Treesmasha, although I do not think the Glitterdust spell would work by itself, as the spell description explicitly says it works on revealing invisible things.
and in the rules of gaze attacks it doesn't say you gain the "blind" condition...it just says your opponent gains total concealment, I agree that it would make sense that you were "blind" but as alot of things in PF it doesn't say that, if it did then you would take ALL the penalties of being blind, not just your opponent gaining "total concealment"
As for rules about closing your eyes for mirror image...there are none...the only place it mention closing your eyes (or using a blindfold) are in the rules for gaze attacks...mirror image says nothing about being able to just close your eyes so I would say by RAW you cannot
However, as everything a GM can change whatever he wants, and allowing someone to do it wouldn't utterly kill the game, but in that case I say they have to choose to take on the "blind" condition itself until the start of their next turn
I think it is pretty RAW when the rules state that: "An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled". When he spends a whole round having his eyes closed he wouldn't be able to see the figments that round because he was effectively blind and would take the penalties for it as well as not being fooled by the spell.
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and in the rules of gaze attacks it doesn't say you gain the "blind" condition...it just says your opponent gains total concealment, I agree that it would make sense that you were "blind" but as alot of things in PF it doesn't say that, if it did then you would take ALL the penalties of being blind, not just your opponent gaining "total concealment"
As for rules about closing your eyes for mirror image...there are none...the only place it mention closing your eyes (or using a blindfold) are in the rules for gaze attacks...mirror image says nothing about being able to just close your eyes so I would say by RAW you cannot
However, as everything a GM can change whatever he wants, and allowing someone to do it wouldn't utterly kill the game, but in that case I say they have to choose to take on the "blind" condition itself until the start of their next turn
Mirror image does not have to specifically say something about closing your eyes because it says the attacker "must be able to see" the figment. It is unnecessary to list every single possible action or situation that might result in the player not being able to see the figments. I've already mentioned being more than 5' away in a fog cloud which is not mentioned in mirror image either. There is also an arcane archer firing a seeker arrow around a corner at the sorcerer he can't see. Closing your eyes need not be specifically mentioned than either of these for it to be RAW because of the phrase stating that the attacker has to be able to see the figments.
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As for rules about closing your eyes for mirror image...there are none...the only place it mention closing your eyes (or using a blindfold) are in the rules for gaze attacks...mirror image says nothing about being able to just close your eyes so I would say by RAW you cannot
An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled.
Wearing a Blindfold: The foe cannot see the creature at all (also possible to achieve by turning one's back on the creature or shutting one's eyes). The creature with the gaze attack gains total concealment against the opponent.
emphasis mine
There is your RAW. If an attacker cannot see the images, they do not fool him. Shutting one's eyes or turning one's back to the opponent meets this requirement.
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I think it is pretty RAW when the rules state that: "An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled". When he spends a whole round having his eyes closed he wouldn't be able to see the figments that round because he was effectively blind and would take the penalties for it as well as not being fooled by the spell.
By RAW, closing your eyes does not make you blind, it grants your opponents total concealment and prevents you from seeing them.
By RAW, you won't take the full range of penalties associated with the blind condition by simply closing your eyes.
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Artanthos: Interesting point. The turning your back kind of goes against the "there is no facing" part of Pathfinder.
Also, if one were to don a blindfold, one is making it impossible (for the moment) to see. I would rule that according to the Blinded condition definition, they are effectively blinded.
Per the PRD : (highlight is mine)
Blinded: The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Perception checks based on sight) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) against the blinded character. Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.