I've played most everything once, either as a player or as a DM.
I have never played a ray specialist, but have the opportunity to do so soon.
I read a post about dipping Fighter (weapon master) 3 or 4 (For Weapon training and/or Weapon Specialization) for some extra damage, and thought it was intriguing.
I assume Sorcerer makes a better magic user class, due to the higher number of spells/day.
I also like the idea of using different spells should rays not work... but that is more the wizards domain I guess.
Any ideas or helps would be much appreciated!
Yeah, that is pretty much what i thought. an interesting idea to increase damage output at the cost of save DC's, but likely not worth it in the long run.
Besides the obvious Reach Spell, any other good feats, classes, or archetypes to look out for?
Maybe just enough eldritch knight levels to obtain weapon specialization?
Then continue as sorcerer, since I don't really need the increased BAB to hit touch AC?
What bloodlines would be good?
Perhaps Elemental or Djinni/Shaitan/Marid.
That way you can swap the element on the fly so you're not so stumped by fire resistance/immunity on your Scorching Ray and whatnot.
Alternatively, you could say "screw that noise" and take Crossblooded Orc/Draconic (Red/Brass/Gold) and add +2 points of damage per every die rolled on a fire spell, and +1 for every other element. So on your Scorching Ray you'd be adding 8 points of damage right off the bat, upping to 16, 24, and 32 as you add more rays. Even better if you Empower it.
Take the Orc Bloodline first level power and 3+Cha times per day you can add half your level to attack/damage rolls and Will saves the next round if you really need to knock someone over at higher levels.
Then the Draconic Energy Resistances + Natural Armor at level 3, then snag Fearless at 9 so you can lose your Light Sensitivity, get more Natural Armor, and immunity to Fear, since I doubt you particularly want a Breath Weapon as a ray master or really care about a bonus to Str that much.
Then Wings at 15 and Power of Wyrms at 20, and it sounds like you'd be a powerhouse of a Sorcerer.
I kinda want to make a dude like this now.
The magus or fighter levels are worth it, as far as I see it. When you hit lvl 15 and get spell perfection, you are going to double the bonus from those feats, including Deadly Aim.
The magus or fighter levels are worth it, as far as I see it. When you hit lvl 15 and get spell perfection, you are going to double the bonus from those feats, including Deadly Aim.
Deadly Aim doesn't work with Touch Attacks
I'll second Shaitan Bloodline... mainly for this.
Avalanche (Su): At 9th level, whenever you hit a single target with a spell that deals damage, you may make a bull rush check as a swift action. Your CMB for this maneuver is equal to your sorcerer caster level + your Charisma bonus. You can make this maneuver even if the target is not in melee range, and you do not provoke an attack of opportunity for making this maneuver. If the target is in contact with earth, stone, or rock, you gain a +4 bonus on your CMB check.
Not a great ability normally, but if your theme is "ray specialist" being so good at them you knock enemies back is a nice treat.
I'd go straight Sorceror for this one. The first two archery feats are good, but you're up against touch AC, and will hit reliably after level three.
If you're dying to have those feats, then sorcerer --Eldrtitch knight is strong, but you'll lose two caster levels most of the time. And caster levels are what make this build work.
Weapon specialized ray of frost just isn't it.
* You can use low level rays as a way to deliver sneak attack damage. I'd go sorcerer/ninja/AT for that, it's a whole different build, and you'll be a glass cannon, even if you build well.
Im definitely not interested in an Arcane Trickster. Its a whole thing, the campaign starts at level 2, I just cannot be bothered to invest the time and effort.
The Arcane Bloodline seems alright, what with the the metamagic shenanigans.
Rough build?/Things i know i want
traits:
magical lineage (not sure what spell yet)
Reactionary
Feats (no particular order)
Reach Spell
Empower Spell
point blank shot
Precise Shot
Weapon Focus (Ray)
Improved Initiative
Quicken Spell (Maybe as a rod?)
Duelist Dagger (+4 initiative seems good)
Thanks for the help thus far! Keep it coming if you've got it!
I've played a ray casting sorcerer. Looked a lot like what Cat has posted above.
One thing I miss about 3.5 and the "Spell Compendium" was the huge amount of powerful ray spells.
My sorcerer actually had a higher dex than charisma. Plus dex boosting items. He was pretty deadly.
I was also considering Spell Perfection, But again, I am not sure which spell i should use for Magical Lineage, Spell Perfection, etc.
Maybe Dazing Spell as well?
I hate dazing spell.... just feels cheesy to me. :-)
Which probably means you should take it.
haha, okay. It seemed a bit much to me as well. I'll probably just skip it. (or if the game gets hard, save it for higher levels)
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I suppose it depends on what you're going to have available to you via your GM's style of play. If your DM allows crafting a plenty in your group, the best way to go about it is Wizard 11/ Fighter 1/ Eldritch Knight 9.
Part of the idea is to take advantage of the ray's classification as a weapon through Arcane Strike, Weapon Specialization, and Point Blank Shot. The kicker of it though, is through the Arcane Discovery Staff-like Wand. This will allow you to take cheaply-crafted, low caster level wands, and apply your caster level and all relevant caster feats (spell penetration and greater spell penetration), to your wand. At that point, craft some Wands of Scorching Ray at the lowest caster level, and go to town with Arcane Strike giving a bonus on each ray.
If you want to get even nastier, forget eldritch knight, and go with Arcane Trickster. Here's a little math for what you're looking at endgame:
Wand of Maximized Scorching Ray within 30 ft of a flat-footed target (or better yet, used while under greater invisibility) as Wizard 11/3 Ninja/Arcane Trickster 6:
24(4d6 maximized) + 4 (Arcane Strike) + 1 (PBS) + 17 (average damage of 5d6 sneak attack)= 46 fire damage per ray.
Considering that this is being made as ranged touch and you're invisible, the likelyhood of this hitting is quite high. Not to mention you're belting this sort of damage out of a measly wand, you can do this ALL DAY, and not worry about wasting spell slots on a simple blaster spell.
Sorcerer with a one level dip in admixture evokes wizard so you can change your energy type on the fly.
Im avoiding Arcane Trickster, it is going to take too long to get online.
Dipping Wizard seems quite cheesy.
I am interested in exploiting Rays as a weapon... But does Arcane Strike really work with rays?
I was thinking Fighter 1/Sorcerer 6/EK 3/Sorcerer X... Just enough Fighter and EK to qualify for Weapon Specialization... though maybe 5 EK, just to snag an Extra Bonus feat?
Hows this look?
20 point buy, human Fighter 1, Sorcerer (Sage) 1
STR 8
DEX 15
CON 14
INT 16 (18)
WIS 12
CHA 8
traits:
Magical Lineage (WHAT SPELL?)
Reactionary
1 Reach Spell
1 Point Blank Shot
Future Feats
3 Precise Shot
5 Empower Spell
7 Spell Specialization (WHAT SPELL?)
9 Dazing Spell?
11 Weapon Specialization: Rays
15 Spell Perfection (WHAT SPELL?)
17 Spell Penetration
19 Toughness
Fighter Feat
1 Improved Initiative
Sorcerer Feats
1 eschew Materials
7 Combat Casting?
13??
EK Feat
1 Weapon Focus: Rays
As you can see, Im still not certain which spells I should use... But the feats seem about right.
Any thoughts, suggestions, critiques appreciated.
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I would switch up
1 Reach Spell
3 Precise Shot
to
1 Precise Shot
3 Reach Spell
because that way you get to exploit Precise cantrip-rays straight from the start. Although Ray of Frost/Acid Splash aren't spectacular spells, using them against Touch AC and as a Standard Action makes them easier and more reliable than a crossbow. You can still move-cast, every round. And the "opponent in melee" thing matters a great deal at level 1.
Specific ray spells to keep in mind...
Calcific Touch is a good team-player spell; while you're whittling away at say, a dragon's Dex, you make it easier for the fighter to attack as well. And many big monsters have Dexterity in the low regions. I think it's a good candidate for Perfection; with Maximize, Reach and Precise Shot you can put dragons on a 3-round timer before you turn them to stone.
If you go that route, consider making it an elf, for +2 Int, +Dex, +2 to penetrate SR; these are all things you need. But when you do all that you have a level 4 spell that can kill almost anything. It's really thrifty with spells per day.
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Rogue(Scout) 8/ Sorcerer (Crossblooded Shaitan Bloodline and Djinni Bloodline) 12
U will want to get the Heritage feats for extra bloodline abilities. The bloodline to go with will be Elemental for its 9th level ability Elemental Blast. The Elemental Blast should be either acid or electrical damage because the arcana from Shaitan allows u to make any energy damaging spell acid and Djinni does the same but into electrical damage.
The abilities to obtain from ur bloodlines will be Electricity Ray from Djinni and Acid Ray and Avalanche from Shaitan.
Feat to consider are the Ranged Feats and Weapon Focus.
All the Rays u pick up should be fire or cold so u can have a nice verity of energy damage spells thanks to ur bloodline arcanas.
U will want the 8 levels of rogue scout so when ever u move 10ft+ u can apply SA to ur ray spells. Rays do benefit from SA as long as u meat SA's requirements. Also u can SA off any spell that requires an attack roll. Arcane trickster btw is for u can SA with any damaging spell like Fireball that hits a lot of targets.
With this combo u will be able to as a Standard action use Elemental Blast to make the target vulnerable to acid spells, move action 10ft to make next single target attack a SA, swift action a quicken Scorching Ray that deals acid damage instead of fire. Next turn Move and standard cast Scorching ray and as a swift action perform a Bull Rush with Avalanche.
Also for race id consider going Gnome or 1/2ling while casting Reduce Person on ur self as much as possible or getting it perma. Reason being for the extra dex, to hit, and ac.
I (think) you can be a scout ninja as well, but I'm not near my books right now.
I would do one of two things. EITHER do a Sorcerer with the Draconic or Orc bloodline for the extra damage on fire spells (but not cross blooded. If you do that, you won't get Scorching Ray until 5th level), OR I would do an Admixture Wizard, allowing you to change the energy type of Scorching Ray at will.
The first will cast more times per day and have more raw damage output in combat. The second will be able to contribute to the party in more meaningful ways than just blasting, but be a little weaker at it than the Sorcerer. The primary reason I would prefer the Wizard over the Sorcerer is because the Wizard will have a vastly more versatile spell list to select from, and will be better able to deal with oddball situations. Plus you can much more easily metamagic your Scorching Ray and can more easily meet the prerequisites for Spell Perfection using your bonus feats, where the Sorcerer has to rely on his bloodline having a feat he wants in the bonus list.
I'd roll the Wizard myself. Probably something like this:
25 point buy
Note: This character is intended to hit level 15 at least for Spell Perfection so that's the level I made him. It could go higher, but I would not play a character with this build in a campaign I knew would not reach 15th level, and I didn't want to break down the level by level progression so I just did the endgame build.
Male Tiefling Evoker (Admixture) 15
LN Outsider (Native)
Init +12; Senses Perception +19
Languages Common, Infernal, Pick 21 more (Linguistics)
-----Defense-----
AC 34, Touch 21, FF 28 (+8 Armor, +6 Dex, +5 Natural, +3 Deflection, +1 Insight, +1 Luck)
HP 145 (15d6+70)
Fort 14, Ref 15, Will 17
Resist Cold 5, Electricity 5, Fire 5
-----Offense-----
Speed 30ft
Ranged Touch +14 (+1 if within 30ft)
Melee HAHAHAHAHA Yeah Right!
Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 15th), Opposition Schools (Pick Two)
8th(2)-Whatever
7th(3)-Whatever
6th(4)-Whatever
5th(6)-Quickened Maximized Reach Scorching Ray
4th(6)-Reach Maximized Empowered Scorching Ray, Quickened Maximized Empowered Scorching Ray
3rd(6)-Maximized Empowered Scorching Ray
2nd(6)-Reach Maximized Scorching Ray
1st(7)-Whatever
At Will(4)-Whatever
-----Statistics-----
Str:7(-2), Dex:22(+6), Con:20(+5), Int:29(+9), Wis:18(+4), Cha:8(-1)
Base Attack +7, CMB+5, CMD+21
Traits: Reactionary (+2 initiative), Magical Lineage (Scorching Ray)
Feats (In the order you take them): Scribe Scroll(B), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Empower Spell(B), Weapon Focus (Ray), Spell Penetration, Reach Spell, Maximize Spell(B), Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Rod, Quicken Spell(B), Spell Perfection (Scorching Ray)
Skills: Appraise +22, Fly +23, Knowledge (Arcana) +27, Knowledge (Engineering) +17, Knowledge (Geography) +17, Knowledge (History) +17, Knowledge (Local) +17, Knowledge (Nature) +27, Knowledge (Nobility) +17, Knowledge (Planes) +27, Knowledge (Religion) +27, Linguistics +27, Perception +19, Sense Motive +19, Spellcraft +27
Combat Gear: +1 Dueling Dagger, Bracers of Armor +8, +6 Belt of Physical Might (Dex/Con), +6 Headband of Mental Prowess (Int/Wis, Perception, Linguistics, Sense Motive), +5 Amulet of Natural Armor, +3 Ring of Protection, +4 Cloak of Resistance, Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, Ioun Stone (Dusty Rose Prism), Ioun Stone (Cracked Dusty Rose Prism), Metamagic Rod (Quiken), Metamagic Rod (Rime), Metamagic Rod (Piercing), Metamagic Rod (Silent), Handy Haversack, 1,450gp
-----Special Abilities-----
Darkness 1/day
Darkvision 60ft
Prehensile Tail (Retrieve objects as swift action)
Vestigial Wings (+4 fly skill checks)
Arcane Bond (Pick an item. Preferably a ring as it's hardest to disarm)
Intense Spell +7
Versatile Evocation - 12/day
Elemental Manipulation
Of course I cheesed the magic items a bit with item crafting feats but that's not uncommon for Wizards. In the spell slots I just put suggested Scorching Ray alterations to prepare, and I put them in the minimum slot they can be prepared at. You can of course prepare any number of those at a higher slot if you want. Keep in mind that Magical Lineage is being applied, so some of them are technically 10th level spells, which would not normally be allowed with Spell Perfection, but because of the wording of Magical Lineage it's a straight level decrease and complies with the "Modified Level" clause.
It's not as powerful as most true blasty builds (Battering Blast builds will wreck it on so many levels), but it certainly does well enough and it's highly versatile, and has the Knowledge skills to discern just about any weakness. With each fully Metamagiced Scorching Ray dealing an average of 97 damage, having an excellent chance of bypassing SR, being able to be cast as any elemental type but Sonic, and add other effects as well, the character is certainly no slouch.
Good luck designing your build, and feel free to use this one if you want.
Is an admixture wizard really worth it? I mean, losing spell slots but gaining versatility? I am happy to do a wizard, I like the wizard class better... i was just under the impression sorcerers made a bit better blasters.
I have a player in my game playing an acid splash brutal sorcerer. He has the feats point blank shot and precise shot, and the traits Havoc of the society and unnatural presence (waneted for his background). He also carries an acid flask. So he has a +3 to hit ranged touch, doing 1d3+5 damage at first level. I'm a little worried as he levels he is going to lose steam, but right now he is, ahem, brutal.
One thing, reduce person is a huge buff for a ranged touch based sorcerer. It gives an effective +2 to hit and +2 AC.
Is an admixture wizard really worth it? I mean, losing spell slots but gaining versatility? I am happy to do a wizard, I like the wizard class better... i was just under the impression sorcerers made a bit better blasters.
Well I'll say this about that: Not having to prepare your Meta-magic for the day is a godsend, rays not being save-based means you can use them for quite a bit longer so having OODLES UPON ODDLES of lower level spell slots is great, and since you're focusing on Rays, it's doubtful you need too too many spells known anyway. Pick Djinni and you get Invisibility/Fly/Overland Flight at the very least for free.
I note that there is a dearth of actual ray spells that do damage. Ranged touch is not the same thing as a ray, and Reach Spell does not convert a spell into a ray. By the time you've sacrificed enough casting levels to get Weapon Specialization, the +2 to damage from it is nearly worthless; you would have been much better off getting straight caster levels.
For lvl2:
Fighter 1 / Wizard 1 (Evoker - Admixture)
A small race with +2 DEX is actually a boon here as you'd get a +2 to hit from the combination of dex and small size. Ray damage doesn't scale with size anyways. A bonus to INT or CON is also great. You could also rationalize that DEX isn't that necessary, as your to hit will be good enough anyways, and that CON and WIS are more important for your saves. In that light virtually any race that doesn't give STR or CHA would be a good pick.
F1 Point-Blank Shot
1 Precise Shot
H Weapon Focus (if you go human)
Trait: Magical Knack (to make up for the loss 2 caster levels!). Magical Lineage is also nice as you could fill up lvl5 slots (at lvl11) with quickened scorching rays. But as others said, Reactionary is a great second trait.
With a 25 point buy array you should already be pushing a +7 to hit if you go for DEX 18. If you take DEX 16 and INT 18 instead you'd be at +6. PB shot and Intense Spells will add +2 damage to anything within 30f so even a Ray of Frost or Acid Splash will do 1D3+2. Not bad for a basic attack that's almost a guaranteed hit.
Future feats: Improved Initiative, Weapon Specialization, Improved Precise Shot, Spell Focus and metamagic feats of your choice (don't forget lvl1-3 metamagic rods are cheap!), Impact Critical Shot, Improved Critical, Critical Focus. Eventually you will want Quicken Spell and Spell Perfection, but at the same time you'll want to keep on adding base damage to your rays and extra effects such as the trip/knockdown, a bigger threat range and what not.
Impact Critical Shot will let you trip or bull-rush enemies you crit with rays.
Don't forget that when you cast a Ray of Exhaustion/Enfeeblement/Enervation, you'll deal bonus negative energy damage based on your PB shot and weapon specialization.
I note that there is a dearth of actual ray spells that do damage. Ranged touch is not the same thing as a ray, and Reach Spell does not convert a spell into a ray. By the time you've sacrificed enough casting levels to get Weapon Specialization, the +2 to damage from it is nearly worthless; you would have been much better off getting straight caster levels.
since there is no rule to differentiate between those ranged touch spells that are rays, and those that are not, and that the only place 'ray' appears as a rule is in the rules for aiming spells in the magic section, i would argue that all spells that require a ranged touch attack are rays.
Lew level feats -
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Arcane Strike (yes, this should work with rays and should affect each attack of scorching ray, so very much worth it)
Weapon Focus
Bloodlines -
Draconic, Primal or Linnorm (For damage)
Elemental (For versitility)
If you choose a bloodline that gives rays Arcane Strike allows them to be relevent for longer and is a much better 'auto attack' then ray of frost. Also interestingly taking Arcane Strike at level 3 increases the damage of the bloodline ray by 1 until level 7 (point blank shot, level bonus, arcane strike, level bonus, arcane strike, level bonus).
Going into EK isn't a terrible idea but ultimately it is up to you. One thing most people don't realize is that it opens up Improved Precise Shot if you desire it in addition to Weapon Specialization. Yeah you are targeting touch AC already but ignoring most cover and concealment is nice.
He wants to be a master of rays...so go magus? haha well it can work will just be in peoples faces because of the magus arcana that lets you spell strike with a ray spell.
The flagbearer feat could be worth it for a ray master. It's +1 hit and +1 damage to your rays and as a side effect does the same for all weapon attacks in the party.
Look at the spell warp sniper PrC from 3.5 days.
I note that there is a dearth of actual ray spells that do damage. Ranged touch is not the same thing as a ray, and Reach Spell does not convert a spell into a ray. By the time you've sacrificed enough casting levels to get Weapon Specialization, the +2 to damage from it is nearly worthless; you would have been much better off getting straight caster levels.since there is no rule to differentiate between those ranged touch spells that are rays, and those that are not, and that the only place 'ray' appears as a rule is in the rules for aiming spells in the magic section, i would argue that all spells that require a ranged touch attack are rays.
Um, no. It's really, really easy to tell which spells are rays; you look at the Effect line in the spell description. So enervation is a ray, and ray of exhaustion is a ray, because the rules specifically say they are rays. But acid arrow and fiery shuriken, which are both ranged touch attacks, are not rays, because they don't say "ray" anywhere in their effect.
Is there a list of Ray spells somewhere. I know that the Spell Compendium had a whole bunch of them. I kinda of miss all of the rays and the orbs.
*whistles to himself*
http://dndtools.eu/classes/spellwarp-sniper/
Byrd, I played one of those in a 3.5 DL campaign. Pretty fun.
;)
On the other hand a wizard can back up and cast a metamagiced spell. Sorcerers can't do that by default unless it's quickened and unless using spontaneous metafocus can only do it a few times a day with a specific bloodline. A wizard's answer to spontaneous metafocus is preferred spell, which lets them spontaneously cast one spell (per instance of the feat, it's one you can take multiple times) without metamagic increasing the casting time. Wizards also get far better bonus feats for a blaster. They're not actually significantly behind on slots either because of school specialization.Is an admixture wizard really worth it? I mean, losing spell slots but gaining versatility? I am happy to do a wizard, I like the wizard class better... i was just under the impression sorcerers made a bit better blasters.Well I'll say this about that: Not having to prepare your Meta-magic for the day is a godsend, rays not being save-based means you can use them for quite a bit longer so having OODLES UPON ODDLES of lower level spell slots is great, and since you're focusing on Rays, it's doubtful you need too too many spells known anyway. Pick Djinni and you get Invisibility/Fly/Overland Flight at the very least for free.
This is the reason I have taken to Wizards more lately. You are correct that the Sorcerer will be the better blaster...in a sense...but the Wizard will be a lot more versatile and will not lose THAT much on the trade-off. The Wizard doesn't have to spend a full round to cast a spell modified with a metamagic feat which makes them more mobile, and they get bonus feats earlier, which can be item creation and metamagic feats as well as spell mastery. Bloodline bonus feats are often times useless unless you build the character a very specific way.
Technically you are right. The Sorcerer will cast more often, and have more damage on each ray, but his feats are more restrictive, he will not have many skills, and he cannot spontaneously change the elemental type of that Scorching Ray to whatever energy type he wants (preferably to whatever the target is vulnerable to). The Wizard will know all about almost every monster he runs up against, and will be able to change things up according to their weaknesses, and while he will have fewer spells slots each day, he will have a MUCH larger repertoire of spells to prepare in them, and likely more divination spells to find out what his target is up to before the party tracks them down.
The Sorcerer will be the better straight-up damage dealer in a lot of situations, but the Wizard will be the better overall CHARACTER. That is not to say Wizards will always be better, because there are plenty of times that is not the case, but in this instance I feel it is.