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Well, it won't wear barding unless it has the proficiency. You could allow it to swap one of its feats for it however.
The ring is not horrible, there's plenty of +x skill rings out there. (ring of swimming)
The owl will not gain hit dice however, but if you as DM want a method for it to gain hit dice, have him take leadership and use it as a Cohort, increasing the HD as the player's level does. There is a chart for monster cohorts you can look at for the flying critters (griffon, pegasus, etc) to see what ballpark they would fall under.
...Another option would be to get Awaken cast on it, which would give it 2 hit dice and allow it to take character class levels as it levels as a cohort. (I think this player would abuse this based on your post, so i only mention this to be as complete as possible, and advise you not to do so.)
Lastly...don't let yourself be bullied, and say no if you feel it is the right call.
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Bending the rules is alright but you have to be confident enough to say enough is enough. He demands things from you? I'd let him ask but as soon as he tells you how to run your game that should be the end of it. He's trying to bully you and thats not cool. Classes that have pets don't give them lvls so there is no way you should. If he wants to make it a cohort have him take leadership and at some point you might be able to justify giving it lvls but thats a stretch. Sit down and talk to him and if he isn't going to be reasonable the enemy should start rolling really well against that owl until its dead.
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There is a fine art to telling your players "no" without using the word, it's akin to reminding them that there are forces in the world too great for them to master, and that's what makes Golarion such a very special place.
What I would do: A druid elder sees the grand predator bird, and becomes upset by this person's attempt to master it. "Saddles, indeed!". The druid makes the giant owl self-aware (using Awaken), and tells it of its majestic peoples living deep in the forests. It tells the owl tales of other races of giant animals, and the societies they keep to themselves. The owl becomes intriged, and one day, suddenly speaks up to its master.
"I have had some thoughts about...things, master."
The owl leads to group (by whatever means you can finagle) to a distant forest (insert adventure here) and the owl realizes its destiny there. It becomes freed from the yoke of being a riding beast. (insert some compensatory treasure here, and the PC loses his giant owl riding bird as it flies away into the night.)
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Not having armor proficiency doesn't mean you can't wear armor. You just suffer penalties for it.
A character who is wearing armor with which he is not proficient applies its armor check penalty to attack rolls and to all skill checks that involve moving.
This would apply to the owl as well. Don't forget that if he wants to ride the owl, he needs to be making riding checks for a lot of things. Also, if he wants the owl to fight, he needs to train it (animals won't fight without being trained, and they won't go near unnatural monsters, like undead or demons, without being trained again, according to the Handle Animal skill).
Last of all, animal level gains. If he wants the animal to level up, he has a few options:
1) gain a level in a class that grants an animal companion, such as druid, paladin, cavalier, samurai, etc... Of course, the animal won't increase in power unless he continues to level in the class.
2) Feats: knowledge (nature), Eldritch Heritage (sylvan) will grants him an animal companion. Boon companion will make it his level. Requires a 13 charisma, so he better hope he didn't dump that stat. :)
3) leadership granting a cohort.
4) you could always allow the owl to gain levels by taking a portion of the XP. Two options for this house rule:
a) take it from the party. If the party has 5 players, and his owl wants XP, divide the party XP gain by 6 instead of 5.
b) take it away from him. Allow him to sacrifice his own XP in order to give it to the owl.
This last way (4) is the worst option, because if the owl dies, it's lost all that XP that the character or the party will never get back. With options 1-3, at least if the animal dies, he can get a new one at an equivalent power level.
Have you considered doing away with XP?
Event based leveling is much easier for players and DMs.
That doesn't solve the issue with the player wanting his riding owl to level up.
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Sub-optimal solution, but allow it to level, on the slow xp progression, and the xp comes from his fighter's share, so he can level up his owl, slowly, at the expense of his main character. When his Owl is treated like a level 9 cohort, but his fighter is only level 3 going against CR 11s, we'll see how much he likes his owl.
Or just have a mature discussion that you're fine with playing loose with the rules but need to maintain some semblance of balance. The other thing to consider is if all the other players are enjoying the same luxury of making demands of you. If you allow it for one, you need to allow it for all, at which point things become very dangerous as the fighter has an animal companion, the wizard wants a tarrasque familiar, with some extra attribute points while you're at it, and the rogue is seeking a platoon of Shadows as his flanking buddies. Either that, or they feel like it's grossly unfair that he's getting all these cool things.
tell him that rocks fall the owl dies.
but seriously i dont would, if i wanted to allow it , which i wouldnt. but if i did i would say, the only ways is if he takes a level of druid (means no metal armor) then both he and the owl can level on slow xp progression.
if he says thats not fair i would say neither is you having an animal companion as a fighter that levels up
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What I have done in the past for classes that want an animal companion/familiar, but aren't playing rangers/druids/wizards, is that I allow them to get either one with Leadership, with the druid/wizard level equaling their character level -4. For familiars, they have to be able to cast arcane spells, but thanks to the Animal Archive, I can loosen up on this restriction with the Animal Archetypes in there. They follow the same rules as a normal animal companion/familiar of that level. I allow Boon Companion to work, but you can choose not to allow it. This is a very simple way of handling it for future reference. Otherwise, I suggest treating it like a cohort.
There's no problem with working with a player and getting them what they want in a character. However, you should speak with them about them "strong-arming*" you into making these decisions. It is certainly fine to say yes, and personally, there is little wrong with a giant owl as a cohort. But, as a GM, it is good to know when to say yes, when to compromise, and when to say no. Furthermore, you have to tell the player that constantly "demanding*" these things is being disrespectful and inappropriate behavior and to take it a bit easy.
*I use these quotes because honestly, I haven't heard the player's side of the story. Usually, a player or GM doesn't actually realize they are being disrespectful and it becomes a huge misunderstanding. That's why it is important to talk to them one on one.
but going druid isnt going to work because the giant owl is a magical beast not an animal. i agree with those that said if he wants it to advance have him take leadership and pick the owl for his cohort. best fix if you want a way to allow it.
@arlandor Well we are already bending the rules so why not bend there as well?
Wow. We'd definitely let it fly at our table but I cant even imagine how hard it would be for us to pull this off. Assuming he wants the owl to still be able to get airborn with him riding it, the owl will at least need to be 1 size category larger than a human. Since I don't know anyone in town experienced as a saddlemaker/owlbarding expert, we'd be talking a 20x markup on the price of barding, and with this owl basically being horse sized, you're talking about at least 20x more expensive than horse barding... We'd make the merchant craft it from scratch and that could take forever and a day (without magical assistance that is (trying not to derail thread over common hot forum topic of ire)).
I agree the skill ring would be no big deal.
As for leveling it, my only suggestion is to see how the group feels about it. If everyone's having fun with owl-dude then roll with it. If everyones ready to see owl-dude get back into the game instead of being whackadoo then gotta call the ball on account of teamwork.
@arlandor Well we are already bending the rules so why not bend there as well?
ahhh yes that is a good point lol.
Have you considered doing away with XP?
Event based leveling is much easier for players and DMs.
I switched to plot leveling to try it out recently and while it's a lot easier for me it makes my players fidgety at worst and just indifferent at best.
Definitely seems like a group to group thing, unless they warm to it later.
Wow. We'd definitely let it fly at our table but I cant even imagine how hard it would be for us to pull this off. Assuming he wants the owl to still be able to get airborn with him riding it, the owl will at least need to be 1 size category larger than a human. Since I don't know anyone in town experienced as a saddlemaker/owlbarding expert, we'd be talking a 20x markup on the price of barding, and with this owl basically being horse sized, you're talking about at least 20x more expensive than horse barding... We'd make the merchant craft it from scratch and that could take forever and a day (without magical assistance that is (trying not to derail thread over common hot forum topic of ire)).
I agree the skill ring would be no big deal.
As for leveling it, my only suggestion is to see how the group feels about it. If everyone's having fun with owl-dude then roll with it. If everyones ready to see owl-dude get back into the game instead of being whackadoo then gotta call the ball on account of teamwork.
Actually, in the Core Rulebook, page 153, Table 6-8, it states for a Large, Nonhumanoid Creature, barding would be x4 the normal cost. Granted, a merchant could charge extra simply because it's an exotic, special request, but that's in the realm of houserules/campaign flavor. And 20x would be waaay overpriced.
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There's already enough good, practical advice here that I will just avoid the debate and whatnot, and pose a question you might want to ask him.
And that is, what challenge is there to the game for him when he can get what he wants by simply harassing you until he gets it? And therefore, what fun is the game when, instead of earning things, he just gets them through bullying?
Let me put this is another light. We used to game with a real cheater. Let's just say that, for political reasons amongst friends, I had to put up with this guy for quite awhile. I realized he was cheating, and asked another player (who had been a GM himself on several occasions) to keep an eye out. Indeed, he came back with all sorts of examples where this guy was fudging numbers, lying about rolls, suddenly spells were appearing on his list that hadn't been there, etc. (No advice necessary - it was a big group and hard to keep track of, and yes, I know all the many ways of encouraging transparency.)
The point is, we could not imagine what he was getting out of the game. When you cheat, as when you bully your GM into giving you things you have not necessarily earned, you remove challenge, you remove mystery, you remove chance, and most of all, you remove the very reasons for playing the game.
Ask him if this is what he really wants?
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Have you considered doing away with XP?
Event based leveling is much easier for players and DMs.
I switched to plot leveling to try it out recently and while it's a lot easier for me it makes my players fidgety at worst and just indifferent at best.
Definitely seems like a group to group thing, unless they warm to it later.
Give them time. I
t took a few fellow players some time, but they learned to love it.
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And 20x would be waaay overpriced.
Ferrari doesnt seem to think so but eh... However you like to do it is however you like to do it. At our table 20x for custom jobs is baseline. At least if the player wanted it to look unique and proper and appropriate instead of just being two dozen breastplates welded together to look like scale mail... It takes a high charisma haggler saying something like 'it'll help spread your reputation far and wide as a master craftsman' to bring that 20x down, and only with a crafter that really enjoys the challenge of making 'custom stuff'.
Most crafters in our world wouldnt want to be bothered with such orders, but every table runs it different.
At our table we actually use 20x as a multiplier for masterwork. That way a masterwork bastard sword is still the 300 that it always was but masterwork full plate mail is real pricey. Once again its hard to have this kind of 'fun' with the economic system until you're comfortable throwing off the shackles of wbl, but its been working well for us so far. There is of course a torrential downpour of potential rage that this 'negatively punishes the mundanes without punishing the casters' but we don't hear such complaints at our table for some reason. Plus it means you can have masterwork anything... Find the price, multiply by 20, voila! masterwork!
Masterwork flask! Masterwork club (nyuk nyuk)! Masterwork backpack for turning into a haversack! Masterwork katanas end up being what.. 1000 gold? Feels more natural/realistic than a flat 300 no matter if its masterwork barding or masterwork daggers.
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And 20x would be waaay overpriced.Ferrari doesnt seem to think so but eh... However you like to do it is however you like to do it. At our table 20x for custom jobs is baseline. At least if the player wanted it to look unique and proper and appropriate instead of just being two dozen breastplates welded together to look like scale mail... It takes a high charisma haggler saying something like 'it'll help spread your reputation far and wide as a master craftsman' to bring that 20x down, and only with a crafter that really enjoys the challenge of making 'custom stuff'.
Most crafters in our world wouldnt want to be bothered with such orders, but every table runs it different.
At our table we actually use 20x as a multiplier for masterwork. That way a masterwork bastard sword is still the 300 that it always was but masterwork full plate mail is real pricey. Once again its hard to have this kind of 'fun' with the economic system until you're comfortable throwing off the shackles of wbl, but its been working well for us so far. There is of course a torrential downpour of potential rage that this 'negatively punishes the mundanes without punishing the casters' but we don't hear such complaints at our table for some reason. Plus it means you can have masterwork anything... Find the price, multiply by 20, voila! masterwork!
Masterwork flask! Masterwork club (nyuk nyuk)! Masterwork backpack for turning into a haversack! Masterwork katanas end up being what.. 1000 gold? Feels more natural/realistic than a flat 300 no matter if its masterwork barding or masterwork daggers.
Well I think the Giant Owl is more like the Ferrari, especially coming in at a whopping 6,000 gp to buy one. 9,000 gp if you want it combat trained*. I'd say the barding is more like accessories or some custom work. Costs a bit extra, but not as much as the whole car.
Which really isn't the core issue here. I was pretty much pointing out that the rules for non-humanoid, non-Medium armors exist before the GM decides to up the price to 3,500 gp for a masterwork studded leather owl barding (as opposed to the 750 gp which it would normally be).
On a side note, masterwork backpack already exists (50 gp), although the 20x seems to work on the tools and items you can get masterworked. Of course, you can also buy a mithral waffle iron ;)
And another side note, for reference, the magic slots available to a Giant Owl are (Armor, belt, chest, eyes, headband, neck, ring, and wrist [assuming talons for ring and wrist]).* Figured that'd be helpful if he wants to deck out his owl.
Last side note, I swear. Apparently on the monstrous cohort list, a Giant Owl ranks as a Cohort Level 8.** So might want to check that out.
*Pathfinder Player's Companion: Animal Archive
** Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 3
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I think that such a character can be really fun and interesting to play and that you made the right calls all along.
Say no to the levels unless awakened (or cohort or AC, but then he needs to take levels in a class with an AC).
Even as a cohort or AC, the Owl will be a pain for him to keep alive and will take a good part of his wealth anyway as he has to pay for the gear of two characters out of his one PC's share of the loot.
Unless the other PCs agree to give a little something extra from their own share for his Owl.
Smart enemies will probably aim for the Owl when he is riding it. He will likely spend feats and gp to prevent this or mollify the results (ring of feather fall for the Owl is a must). Animal Archive is filled with very good things for such characters.
You should warn him that it would be far easier to help his pet survive if there is a Druid or Ranger nearby to cast all the nice spells (such as Raise Animal Companion).
Say ok to him but also say that the group will have less xp since you are dividing the total by one more .
See him backpedal fast !
You really think that? If the player is such a powergaming twink as he sounds like from the OP, he'd probably take the deal, because it ends up making him more powerful ( double the action economy! ) and he'll expect the GM to adjust encounters to be still appropiate for the party.
For the OP: Only give players a better deal than they should have if it doesn't unbalance the game and upstage the other player characters. Example: In the campaign I am currently running, we had a death in the party and unfortunately that player character was the only one capable of effectively using an plot relevant artifact weapon ( a Katana ). The player wanted his replacement character to use Dervish Dance and because I wanted the artifact to be kept in use, I allowed Dervish Dance to be used with a Katana. It was a bit of an extra edge for the player, but not in a way which really impacted the enjoyment of the other players and kept the campaign rolling forward.
Getting an extra animal companion for free and then demanding to level it up as a PC is definitely stealing the spotlight from the other player characters and putting a drain on party resources to boot. Don't allow it.
The point is LCF (look cool factor), not power.
You are providing him with things that make his character unique, which you are seeking to make the game for fun for him.
He is seeking a tactical advantage, and that comes simply from the versatility innate within a flying mount.
I would explain the difference.
Such things are like prestidigitation. The spell doesn't really do anything, if it is doing something then it needs to stop now before it infects the children, but is amazing flavour for any game.
The owl idea leveling up as a cohort is cool...he'll have to spend feats and gold on it. Let him do it...then send them where the owl can't go; underwater, drow city, kings masquerade ball, a pirate ship, into the narrow caverns of an active volcano, or into a big city that bans flying mounts.
"You want a +5 ring?"
*SLAP!!!*
Ring his bell with five across the eyes.
Kidding.
Seriously, though, just tell him , "no, you can't have that". It's good for everyone involved, and if he throws a fit and leaves then that's what needs to happen.
Defend your table.
I'd say go with the cohort thing. I personally always found it weird how fast PC's become superhuman compared to NPC's, and unless you're a pet focused class, a horse becomes this weak, pup-like beast with no damage and health when in reality, it could kick your head flat.
Make him pay for it with the feat, and he has to spend his own funds on it's gear, if any. He also has to take ride and fly checks all the time.
Cohort sounds good to me.
But I'm not so sure how useful this will be. When was the last time something occurred "inside" in your game? When was the last time this HUGE bird had to squeeze through a LARGE opening and scraped off his rider? How about a thick canopy forest? Does the Owl just hop along the ground while another party member claps coconut halves together behind it? This owl sounds like comedy gold for the entire party.