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What if fighters could take agile combat and gain weapons finesse as a bonus feat and add 3+dex exotic weapon proficiencies and can finesse these weapons? as an idea for more combat ideas. Or choose divine combat, select a deity, and gain abilities to heal. Or arcane combat and gain cantrips as spell-like abilities. Or ranged combat and got both point-blank shot and precise shot as bonus feats, and got the ability to use full STR on shots made with bow/crossbow x per day.
You know how I feel about all improvements that is not feat related or tweaks existing class features.
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You know how I feel about all improvements that is not feat related or tweaks existing class features.
And I was talking to anyone who wants to read this thread as something other than pure feats. If you want to post more feats then here, knock yourself out markthus.
Add feats that expand the benefits of bravery such that they can encompass things like spells and spell like abilities. This would be similar to the hardy dwarf racial feat that does the same.
It may also be worth considering a feat that adds your armor training rank to reflex saves.
Consider a feat like this
Watch command
prerequisites: fighter level 3
Benefit: replace perception ranks with base attack bonus. Perception is always considered a class skill for you. At fourth level, and every four levels thereafter, reduce sleeping requirements by one hour (to a minimum of three hours at level 20)
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What if armour training already gave you the bonus on reflex saves? Why wouldn't fighters take an obviously useful feat? Why should we make feats that the fighter HAS to take to become as good as other classes? What to fighters gain from having tonnes of great feats, but needing to take them to be good? they just become less effective because the "Fighter Versatility" gets removed!
What if armour training already gave you the bonus on reflex saves? Why wouldn't fighters take an obviously useful feat? Why should we make feats that the fighter HAS to take to become as good as other classes? What to fighters gain from having tonnes of great feats, but needing to take them to be good? they just become less effective because the "Fighter Versatility" gets removed!
That's certainly a valid argument. If you were inclined to make armor training bundle that effect as well then you would have less feat taxes to shore up a weakness. On the bravery front, I simply used an existing feat for dwarves as a precedent.
My suggestion for Fighter tweaks are:
minor:
+2 skill points a level, Acrobatics, Perception, and Sense Motive, become class skills.
Weapon Focus, Training, Spec (and anything similar): applies to all attacks rather than just with a specific weapon/group.
Armor training: grants a Dodge Bonus to AC rather than increasing max Dex.
major:
Bravery: double the bonus, apply it to all saves, allows Fighter to make a Fort Save Vs Fear in place of a Will Save.
Remove Cavalier and Samurai from the game, their class features become Fighter Exclusive bonus feats.
Collapse most feat chains down into auto-scaling feats. This would mostly apply to feats that have a clear Improved/Greater sort of progression but could apply to others, like, Dodge/Mobility.
Everyone's come up with some good ideas for the Fighter. Abilities to self-heal at an accelerated rate, another good save, the ability to - from time to time - gain a feat without prerequisites, a raise in skill points and - possibly - a revenue of followers and henchmen give the Fighter what he needs. I'm not sure what more the Fighter needs besides what's been discussed here. With heavy armor proficiency, the Fighter make himself into a target for the enemy and has the AC to come out on top.
They drop out of high school....
Generalization .. . .
Remove Cavalier and Samurai from the game, their class features become Fighter Exclusive bonus feats.A feat that gives you a free mount might be a tad overpowering. Also, nerfing other classes seems like a terrible way to improve different classes. Other then that your post has some great ideas.
I think Mr. ninja may be referencing the overlap of the cavalier and the fighter. A modular fighter that you may want to look at is the Kirthfinder fighter. I think it may be a little too far of a swing, but the fighter talents do encompass all of the martial combatant tropes.
Here is a random thought, what if Fighters gain double their level instead of (merely) their level in Base Attack Bonus? They would, like their name implies, be the best fighters in the game.
Auto-scaling feats are a good solution; Dementrius's Feats for a Fighter healing quicker than other classes should auto-scale ( only need one).
Cavaliers, Samurai and Fighter don't need to combine, Fighters need 1. faster healing, 2. the option for 4+Int skill points, plus adds half his class level to physical-based skills, Perception, Sense Motive and Heal added to the Fighter's repitiore, and followers and henchmen around 9th level to respect the Fighter's growing fame and prowess.. .
They also need quality feats for battling casters. . .
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This thread has brought up some quality work for keeping Fighters viable and - heck - *good*. These people should be *PAID*!! ;D
Here is a random thought, what if Fighters gain double their level instead of (merely) their level in Base Attack Bonus? They would, like their name implies, be the best fighters in the game.
Because this would not actually change the dynamic at all. I could make all fighters have +20 to bab at each level and they would still be completely without a role outside of combat. I think the consensus is that the fighter is not a poor combatant, he is simply ineffective with regards to his ability to contribute out of combat. Combine that with very significant scaling weaknesses to magic, and you will probably get up to speed with the rest of the conversation.
Remove Cavalier and Samurai from the game, their class features become Fighter Exclusive bonus feats.A feat that gives you a free mount might be a tad overpowering. Also, nerfing other classes seems like a terrible way to improve different classes. Other then that your post has some great ideas.
IMO being able to get a good horse to ride into combat is exactly the sort of thing that should be available to a Fighter.
It's not nerfing another class, it's outright removing a rather weak class that has a lot of thematic overlap with the Fighter and using it for parts.
You could still make a Cavalier or Samurai doing this, only it would be better as it would have the other Fighter class features.
Also, my own personal experience, but I've never seen anyone actually play a Cavalier (I mean, I'm sure it happens, but I get the general impression that it's viewed as a weak class used primarily for dipping to get a decent mount).
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A feat that gets you an Animal Companion already exists, so getting a mount iS NOTHING special. An Animal Companion is a one-level class feature that scales. It should be equal to a feat, when a fighter takes a feat.
Skills and feats are ALL a fighter gets. If you can't play with both of them, then it's not worth playing with at all. A class that focuses completely and entirely on mundane skills should NOT be saddled with 2 skill points. A fighter is the Olympian of martial combat. He is not Stupid. Stupid melee is the BARBARIAN shtick. Barbs are the one that should default to being done.
Fighters are trained. Barbarians learn however and whatever. Training should have benefits.
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Feats as they stand suck for fighters.
Unless feats reference a class feature, they tend to be half as powerful as class features.
You can get Dodge. Or you can get a Rage Power that gives you a scaling dodge bonus in a fight. Or be a monk, that gets a scaling Untyped Ac bonus.
You can get Improved Grapple, and +2 to Grapple checks. Or a rage power that adds your LEVEL to your CMB.
You can get Iron Will. or take a TRAIT(!) as a dwarf that gives the bonus to all saves vs. magic.
And Improved Iron Will. Or a trait(!) from the halfling tree that gives you a reroll on ANY save.
You see? feats suck. They have NO VALUE.
Unless feats are rare and precious, the fact the fighter has a bunch of half-strength abilities means nothing. Giving the fighter MORE things that suck does nothing for them.
Skills suck. They have NO VALUE. The ease and ability of taking cross-class skills, the preponderance of classes that can take any skills, the proliferation of traits and feats that make skills class skills...all immensely devalue the power of skills.
And for an adventurer, magic is generally more reliable and useful when you need to use it occasionally then wasting skill points on something you aren't going to use all the time.
Anti-magical resistance does not exist as a viable build for the two non-magical classes in this game. Barbs do it better, and they get all sorts of supernatural stuff.
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To make feats matter, feats have to be re-written with the fighter as Master of Feats in mind.
Any feat taken by a fighter should auto-scale with his fighter levels. All of them. Just like Rage Powers do. A non-fighter takes them, they get what they pay for. But ANY feat a fighter takes should be equal to Extra Rage Power.
Period. No arguments.
Auto-scaling takes care of the 'needs more feats' argument intrinsically. You don't need extra feats if your feats scale.
Fighter class abilities should be equal to those of other classes. He should get DR and a Dodge bonus from Armor Mastery...you know, like monks and barbs get. His Weapon Mastery should apply equally to all groups...like a barb's str buff, Ranger's FE, Paladin's smite, and bard's singing do. His bravery bonus should be at least the equal of the rage power Superstitious, or a paladin's Cha bonus to saves, or SOMETHING USEFUL.
There has to be a clear line drawn between Skill 'ranks' and skill 'bonus'.
Skills need to be cut BACK on classes that can use magic. If you have magic, you lean on magic. If you don't, you lean on skills.
Skills need to be made to have VALUE again. The only way you're going to get that is to restrict them...just like not everyone is good at spellcasting, not everyone should be good at skills. And a skill-based class like the rogue will always be second fiddle.
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I would also like to say that there needs to be a clean difference between taking a level of Fighter for all the bonus goodies, and taking a fighter at level 1.
Someone grabbing a level of fighter later on should get the bonus feat, and the BAB. That's basically it.
Weapon prof, armor prof, the +2 to a save...those things should only be given out at level 1. If you don't have them, blow a feat on them. That gives martial and armor profs teeth. Gives them value.
I like the idea that certain weapons should be martial. I think katana/bastard sword should be that for humans, in the same way dwarven axe is for dwarves. But that's not a fighter thing, really...although they made it one for the samurai class.
a fighter should have a core set of skills that emphasize what it means to be a fighter. Then they should be able to pick a couple skills that reflect background and extra training. If you go back to 'skills are valuable', this becomes powerful once again.
==Aelryinth
I can agree with the skill remark to a degree. I think that skills should be able to do things of grander scale as the players ranks increase. By the time you are at level ten your characters skill in the areas he has focused is supernatural by comparison to the mundane.
I did like the house rule that additional skill points came from different ability scores and could be spent on related skills. I.E. strength would grant ranks in strength based skills. These skills could be used on other physical skills at double the cost. It makes the character more well rounded early in the game and removes the huge advantage intelligent casters have over others.
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To make feats matter, feats have to be re-written with the fighter as Master of Feats in mind.
Any feat taken by a fighter should auto-scale with his fighter levels. All of them. Just like Rage Powers do. A non-fighter takes them, they get what they pay for. But ANY feat a fighter takes should be equal to Extra Rage Power.
Period. No arguments.
Auto-scaling takes care of the 'needs more feats' argument intrinsically. You don't need extra feats if your feats scale.
Fighter class abilities should be equal to those of other classes. He should get DR and a Dodge bonus from Armor Mastery...you know, like monks and barbs get. His Weapon Mastery should apply equally to all groups...like a barb's str buff, Ranger's FE, Paladin's smite, and bard's singing do. His bravery bonus should be at least the equal of the rage power Superstitious, or a paladin's Cha bonus to saves, or SOMETHING USEFUL.There has to be a clear line drawn between Skill 'ranks' and skill 'bonus'.
Skills need to be cut BACK on classes that can use magic. If you have magic, you lean on magic. If you don't, you lean on skills.
Skills need to be made to have VALUE again. The only way you're going to get that is to restrict them...just like not everyone is good at spellcasting, not everyone should be good at skills. And a skill-based class like the rogue will always be second fiddle.==Aelryinth
Redesigning feats is a good idea. I made a thread for it. If you missed it earlier, then its here
You know how I feel about all improvements that is not feat related or tweaks existing class features.And I was talking to anyone who wants to read this thread as something other than pure feats. If you want to post more feats then here, knock yourself out markthus.
What bugs me about this suggestion is that improving feats is the same things as improving the fighter.
As far as the actual fighter class goes here is what I would tweak:
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Remove Bravery. It's dumb.
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Armor Training (Ex)
Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0), gains DR 1/adamantine that stacks with the DR given by adamantine armor, and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time.
In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor. When a fighter can move at his normal speed he is treated as wearing light armor instead of medium or heavy for the effects of spells or feats.
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Weapon Training (Ex)
Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.
Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons. The bonuses granted to weapon groups increase by +1 each. For example, when a fighter reaches 9th level, he receives a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one weapon group and a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with the weapon group selected at 5th level. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack.
A fighter also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with weapons from this group. This bonus also applies to the fighter's Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against weapons from this group.
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Weapon Mastery (Ex)
At 20th level, a fighter chooses one weapon group. Any attacks made with weapons from that weapon group automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding a weapon of this type.
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If I had to add anything this is what I would add:
A fighter feat at every level. Back in 3.5 the fighter feat advantage was greater than it is now. Getting a fighter feat every level is something that I feel could be done.
I could also be convinced to add this ability.
Athletic(Ex)
A lvl 1 fighter gains the ability to make climb, jump, and swim checks with a roll of a d20 + 3 + fighter lvl + str mod.
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It's hard for me to justify how being a fighter, training and mastering control of your body everyday, doesn't somehow make you proficient at physical skills automatically without skill point investment.
Let the fighter's 2+int/lvl skill be used on other things. (Making perception an inclass skill is something I would agree too).
No I would not buff his saves, refer to my save boosting feats.
As for improving feats, that seems to me to be going the wrong way. It is a lot of work, especially a lot of work if it is just to make Fighters cool.
Maybe they could get special abilities that they can select like Rogues and other classes do. Every 3 levels you get some super Fighter skill that is only for Fighters.
Bravery is kind of lame, and there are a lot of alternatives to it. The different archetypes help a lot, but the baseline fighter does seem to be pretty bland.
The Athletics bonus from Fighter level could work as one of those special selectable Fighter abilities. Having better skill at a group, as in Weapon Focus: swords), is also a good idea.
The problem that I foresee with messing up the baseline Fighter is that it also means that you need to modify some (or all) of its Archetypes. Of course, if they are based on a class that nobody wants to be anyway that in itself is not a bad thing.
Fighters have never been a very powerful class, especially at higher levels. They have always been the most powerful at lower levels.
If you give them more skill points they steal one of the few perks of the Rogue class. A Ranger with the Urban Ranger class is better in most cases than a Rogue. Sure, he does not get Sneak Attack, but that is only sometimes useful and is in many cases useless.
My point is that if you mess with Fighters you may have to mess with many other things. Rogues suck, too. Why get a skill that is trumped by a spell? Why sneak around when you can turn invisible? Why look for traps when you can use magic to do it (directly or indirectly)?
If you want to mess with Fighters, go ahead, but the least obtrusive method to do so that I can think of is to select special Fighter abilities, probably instead of the feats (or feats being one that can be selected). If feats are so lame, perhaps a Fighter ability to choos would be to get two of them.
Feats sucking is a problem for all martials. Improving them will help balance on the whole and gives the fighter the edge he needs.
As for improving feats, that seems to me to be going the wrong way. It is a lot of work, especially a lot of work if it is just to make Fighters cool.
Actually, improving feats with 'scaling by level' allows a Fighter to contribute without making him do Kibuki theater and swapping out feats greater gives him the versatility he needs (how much should it be done?). Kirth's feats and those of 'Frank and T' are improvements on RAW.
My game allows Fighters to swap out feats and I'm laboriously transposing Kirthfinder feats into Open Office, a chore, but I'm also learning them.
Oh, I understand what you are meaning. Get a feat that, after you get it, improves automatically as you level up. That is not a complete re-write of feats (which for some reason was what I was thinking), but a re-write of one and dropping others that become unnecessary.
Yeah that is a good idea.
Oh, I understand what you are meaning. Get a feat that, after you get it, improves automatically as you level up. That is not a complete re-write of feats (which for some reason was what I was thinking), but a re-write of one and dropping others that become unnecessary.
Yeah that is a good idea.
That's what we mean by rewriting feats.
What if more combat feats scaled by BAB as opposed to level? Wouldn't doing that effectively give Martial classes more of an advantage? (being Martial and all.) Sort of BAB being a Fighter's "caster level"
Yeah, scaling them to BAB is a great idea, as it keeps it being limited to how good at fighting the character is. Sure, another class COULD get the feat, but it is far effective for a martial class.
Yeah, scaling them to BAB is a great idea, as it keeps it being limited to how good at fighting the character is. Sure, another class COULD get the feat, but it is far effective for a martial class.
this is actually a very good idea. It make inquisitors, magi, bards and summoners to get less benefit from them
Have to agree with Marthkus on improving feats. It is rather telling that the best feats in the game are ones that trade away your feats for extra class features. I'd really like to see martial feats revised so that you get more Cool Stuff for martials, and less of the "My +16 is now a +17."
I don't understand why most feats don't scale in the first place.
Compare Wizard and Fighter. When a Fighter gains two levels he gains a new combat feat. When a Wizard gains two levels he gains a new spell level. Not only is the new spell level giving him access to an array of things to do but most of them scale according to his caster level. A fighter gets one thing which usually does one thing. The idea of balance is that the wizard's new thing happens once while the fighter's thing happens all the time. This would be adequate but a Wizard's spell per day increases, so he has about 20+ things that happen once a day and scale by lvl 10. (4 of them happen all the time) and a fighter has exactly 6 things that happen all the time at the same level. (I'm not counting normal feats because the wizard gets those too.) Now looking at the combat feat list it seems like most of the fighter's things come in sets of 3 where his 'thing' improves in useability, It's the same 'thing' just better, so technically he gets 2 things that happen all the time to scale out.
So at level 10
A Wizard has 20+scaled out things that happen once per day. To help he has 5 more things (Two bonus feats, Arcane Bond, Scribe Scroll, and arcane school powers.)(also by 8th level arcane school counts as 2-3 things considering that they give 2-3 abilities. )
A Fighter gets 2 scaled out things things that happen all the time.
To help he gets 5 more things (two armor trainings, two weapon trainings and bravery)
At a basic level I think the caster/fighter disparity s pretty huge. If feats scaled then at the very least a fighter would have 6 'things' instead of 2. Not to mention that the Wizard is INT based so he has a lot of skill ranks so can actually DO more on a skill level too. the only thing that's outmatched is HP and BAB (I'm counting Fort and Will saves to be equivalent even if that is not so.)
Been taking a break from this (exploding) thread, but there's something I'm concerned about:
I wonder if when many people are saying, "Fighters need more skills" what they actually mean is, "Fighters need enough skill points per level that I can give them every skill that I think fits a 'fighter' style and keep those skills at max ranks at all times."
Again, I am of the opinion that "2+Int" isn't enough for any class (Wizards included, but that's a different topic), but honestly you don't have to max all your skills to be viable in skill-use.
Spread the love - quit with the min-maxing mindset.
Nah.
What they need is
A.) Enough skill points to have some skills a fighter archetype should be able to have (Sense Motive, Perception, Climb/Swim/Acrobatics even though you'll only want like 1 rank in the former 2, Kn. Dungeoneering, etc.).
4+Int should be enough for that.
But they also need B.) Actual incentive to use skills. Preferably through actually making skills besides Perception USEFUL after things like Spider Climb and Water Walking come into play. Having Climb/Swim ranks grant an actual Climb/Swim speed, for example instead of the ability to climb at the approximate speed of smell or swim with all the grace and speed of a retarded porpoise.
B is for martials in general though.
I don't want a Fighter with skills. I want a fighter with feats or maybe a fixed ability that lets him jump, climb, and swim.
Fighter is a martial focused class that excels in feats not skill points. Skills are not what the fighter is good at.
If you want to play a melee bruiser with plenty of skill points, well you are in luck there is already like 3 other classes that do that.
Now if you want to play a melee bruiser with plenty of skill points, swimming in bonus feats, AND tons of unique class features, then you should realize that you want a class that does everything except cast spells.
In my mind there are three core aspects the classes fall between. Skills, Feats, and Spells.
The Fighter is the feat focused class. The Rogue is the skill focused class. The Wizard and the Cleric are the spell focused classes.
Fighters shouldn't have more skill points in the same sense that the Rogue, wizard, and cleric shouldn't get combat bonus feats every X levels. The Fighter needs more skill points in the same way he needs more spells, he doesn't. You are thinking of other classes.
Know what'd be cool?
Taking a lot of the really good Rage Powers (Beast Totem, Spell Sunder, etc.) and making them Feats with certain pre-reqs (BaB X, Fighter level X-Y or summat) and then just making the Rage Powers say something like "Grants the Spell Sunder Feat (a Barbarian does not need to meet the prerequisites of this Feat except where otherwise specified)".
Leave some of the more unique Rage Powers and even some of the chains (Superstition -> Witch Hunter -> Spell Sunder, where a Fighter can take Spell Sunder at something like Fighter level 8 if he has Improved Sunder or summat, but can't get Superstition or Witch Hunter and has to wait a couple of extra levels).
Fix a lot of the issues right there, and make a non Catfolk/Tiefling Natural Attack using Fighter viable/possible with Beats Totem.
I think feats should be better than rage powers, so I only agree with that to an extent.
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I don't want a Fighter with skills. I want a fighter with feats or maybe a fixed ability that lets him jump, climb, and swim.
Fighter is a martial focused class that excels in feats not skill points. Skills are not what the fighter is good at.
If you want to play a melee bruiser with plenty of skill points, well you are in luck there is already like 3 other classes that do that.
Now if you want to play a melee bruiser with plenty of skill points, swimming in bonus feats, AND tons of unique class features, then you should realize that you want a class that does everything except cast spells.
In my mind there are three core aspects the classes fall between. Skills, Feats, and Spells.
The Fighter is the feat focused class. The Rogue is the skill focused class. The Wizard and the Cleric are the spell focused classes.
Fighters shouldn't have more skill points in the same sense that the Rogue, wizard, and cleric shouldn't get combat bonus feats every X levels. The Fighter needs more skill points in the same way he needs more spells, he doesn't. You are thinking of other classes.
I don't think we are thinking of other classes.
currently right now, the fighter is not your go to guy for being a guard. He doesn't get perception or Sense motive. He gets very few skill points to even be able to level those up to the point he /could/ be useful as a guard.
Ya know? Though having the physical skills self level like that for a fighter would make it so theoretically they would have more skill points.
I think feats should be better than rage powers, so I only agree with that to an extent.
I don't think they should be better, just on par.
I don't think we are thinking of other classes.
currently right now, the fighter is not your go to guy for being a guard. He doesn't get perception or Sense motive. He gets very few skill points to even be able to level those up to the point he /could/ be useful as a guard.
Ya know? Though having the physical skills self level like that for a fighter would make it so theoretically they would have more skill points.
Making perception a class skill in reasonable. Giving the fighter more class skills is not something I have a problem with unless they are stupid like spellcraft or heal.
Although the guard thing is funny because most games I play guards have shit perception and sense motive scores :P
The Bolded Part: I'm against the fighter having more than 2+int skill points per level, but I'm also against fighters needing to spend skill points to jump, climb, or swim. I also do not like picturing a fighter jumping with his dex score.
Yes in theory, auto scaling these checks with fighter levels gives a fighter more skills points, but that is only if you would have used those skill points on swim, climb, or jump.
Furthermore, giving the fighter more skill points does not fix the problem of him having to jump with a dex check. *eyetwitch*
I think feats should be better than rage powers, so I only agree with that to an extent.I don't think they should be better, just on par.
Well we disagree there big time. I don't find rage powers to be nearly good enough to fix balance problems.
That and the fighter should have the edge on the barbar because he is an unfocused twat with 4+int skill points per level
Skills actually let you do things, which is nice. Why does it make sense that the savage wildman is more skilled than the trained warrior?
A barbar fights simply using his rage and thus can be more well rounded and have more skill points.
Also one of the reasons feats should be better than rage powers.