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GM's who know how the class works dont care about them. unless they are elf or half elf, which is a bad choice for a summoner as far as powergaming goes, any gm knows that a simple sleep spell will negate the edilon. yes a level 1 spell that effects 4hd worth of characters will knock a synthesist out of the equation. if they were dumb enough to dump there physical stats they are as good as dead when the BBEG comes over and full attacks them while they are "naked".
but then again thats true for all summoners.
anyway a synthesist is a very scary sounding thing when the players is spouting "he has 4 attacks hes huge sized and wields great swords and hit for 800 million damage per round". then his gm says "make a will save" and the synthesist rolls his 5 and goes "... 10?" and now he is either MC'd or asleep and he is either killing his teammates with that that 800 million damage per round, or his edilon goes poof.
and unfortunately ikarinokiami a synthesist edilon does out perform a fighter in every way.
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After reading this thread, i have come to the conclusion that alot of people take fighters, just so they don't have to optimize and not be pigeon hole. because seriously a well made fighter with level apporiate gear walks all over an eidelon in combat in 80% of situtation.
Although i don't disparage people for doing that, one of the best things about a fighter or rogue for that matter, is you get to be almost anyone your imagination can think of.
Bah, a Ranger can be a "Fighter" just as easily as a Fighter can. Your class only constrains your RP as much as you let it.
An Inquisitor can very easily be a "Ranger," a Cleric can very easily be a "Paladin," a Summoner can very easily be a "Wizard." I could go on.
The problem is mostly that no other class can really emulate the Synthesist (except maybe a Wild Shape Druid). You know, in addition to the fact that you have to read a lot to truly understand how to make an Eidolon.
I want to be in this game where the DM allows the synthesist to walk around inside in eidolon all the time, even while in town or around regular people, without getting some kind of very strong reaction. Anyone who dumps their physical stats thinking they can always rely on their eidolon skin are going to find out very quickly that they better have a backup plan ready because there are simply too many times and too many methods that I can come up with just off of the top of my head where they would be in serious trouble, and that's without even trying to figure out specific strategies to go after that particular archetype. They are a strong build to be certain, but far from invincible unless they completely ignored the rules or ended up giving themselves some kind of weakness somewhere.
M's who know how the class works dont care about them. unless they are elf or half elf, which is a bad choice for a summoner as far as powergaming goes,
What? Last I checked, Half-Elf was the go-to choice for powergaming summoners thanks to their favored class bonus giving extra evolution points.
anyway a synthesist is a very scary sounding thing when the players is spouting "he has 4 attacks hes huge sized and wields great swords and hit for 800 million damage per round". then his gm says "make a will save" and the synthesist rolls his 5 and goes "... 10?" and now he is either MC'd or asleep and he is either killing his teammates with that that 800 million damage per round, or his edilon goes poof.
Summoners have a good will save progression, and the synthesist can usually afford to invest a bit in wisdom thanks to the Eidolon-suit handling their physical attributes. That's not to mention that at level four Shielded meld gives another +2 to saves and at level six Devotion adds +4 more to Will saves against Enchantment spells and effects .
I'm not seeing where you got the idea that Will saves are a big issue for the Synthesist. Sure, you can always botch a roll, but the Synthesist has a lot bumping up his will saves, especially compared to most other front-line classes.
At level six, the Synth is running +11 to saves against Charm, Sleep, or other Enchantment spells before accounting for Wisdom Modifier gear, racial bonuses, feats, etc (+5 base save, +2 from Shielded Meld, and +4 from Devotion). That's pretty darn good, especially compared to something like the Fighter who only has the basic +2 from his slow-progression base will save.
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How is it that Sleep is so powerful that it's a relevant part of the discussion of the weakness of summoners? I'm looking at the spell description and see that they did not, in fact, remove the 4hd limit from the spell. So is it safe to assume that the overwhelming majority of games with any form of summoner are between levels 1-4 or that everybody is simply assuming that games rarely go beyond it? Maybe we are talking about a spell with the same, or similar name, that I am unaware of that sleeps several or unlimited hd worth of creatures.
If these are not the case and I am still missing something, can somebody tell me? I grow so very irritated when I can't figure out simple things like this. I've read the spell. I know how the summoner class works. I do NOT see the logical connection (beyond what's mentioned above) to validate 'just walk up and cast sleep to remove the eidolon'.
I say this now because I've seen it on this thread enough times to need an answer before I explode from a severe case of 'wth am I not understanding'.
My summoner, as an example, is immune to the sleep spell, and has been for about a month. I don't see anyone casting THAT spell to get rid of my eidolon. *checks rules to see if eidolons sleeping dismisses them*
@Dark Immortal
I have the same wonder as you but there is the slumber hex.
Really everyone is helpless when they are helpless synthesist or not.
Really everyone is helpless when they are helpless synthesist or not.
This. A lot of people make the argument that the Summoner is easily dropped by a single Will save...who the hell isn't? Hold Person, or Dominate, or the Slumber hex, or any other save vs.death effect makes the Fighters of the world just as screwed as the Summoners. There is a small extra problem for the summoners in the banishment/dismissal area, but even that is both very rare and only stops them for a round (Summon Eidolon, anyone?).
That being said, I don't really think the Summoner (and the Synthesist in particular) are all that bad, inherently. The issue that most people run into, I think, is not that they're super-overpowered, but how easy it is to optimize them. There are, of course, a thousand builds for any class or combination of classes that makes them blow your average character out of the water. The thing is, all the options that allow the Summoners to do this are extremely obvious. "Extra Evolution? Yes please. Reach? Sure, why not. Flight? Heck yeah." It's almost difficult to build a summoner that isn't powerful, just because all the powerful options for the class are pretty much just for them, and mostly obvious.
To test this theory, I asked a friend of mine who's mostly unfamiliar with Pathfinder to put together a 5th-level synthesist. We then orchestrated a series of fights vs. several different classes, all optimized pretty hard (although not to specifically destroy a summoner, just strong in general). He won just about half of them. From that, take what you will.
So it's the class you can roll up the quickest with little system mastery and still be relevant? I think this makes the class a nice introduction for newbies and, therefore, a distinctly good thing.
So it's the class you can roll up the quickest with little system mastery and still be relevant? I think this makes the class a nice introduction for newbies and, therefore, a distinctly good thing.
Yes and no. The potential issue is how much work it takes to keep up with them. In order to be on the same playing field as your average synthesist, a player is going to have to be seriously on the ball when it comes to character creation, finding and exploiting all the best aspects of their build. In short, it's nice that you don't have to work hard to make the synthesist awesome, it's bad that everyone else does.
Awesome at what? Granted, the synthesist has an amazing POTENTIAL for various tasks but it's not good at everything at the same time. It can only stretch itself so far before you get a mediocre build just like any other class. The build focused on skills isn't going to be as awesome in combat and vice versa. Those are the really two huge pieces of the pathfinder pie with the other being spells and the summoner list is already pretty restricted. I just can't see it as the one man party I see a lot of others make it out to be.
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What I'm not getting is why should I add Synthesist Summoners? Between the amount of FAQ devoted to them, the concerns about their strength and about their complexity, and the simple fact that the slot they fill is not one I particularly saw as needed filling, I figured that 14 classes was enough.
Because it would make the player happy and the game fun ?
These can be worthy goals for a GM.
They can be worthy goals. But are we talking about a player who can only be satisfied if they get to play the one class their GM is uncomfortable (for a variety of reasons) letting into their game?
As a player I would love to play this class, but I even know that it is broken.
I have always like the idea of were-wolves, and the similar, and this sort of fits that role for me.
So it's the class you can roll up the quickest with little system mastery and still be relevant? I think this makes the class a nice introduction for newbies and, therefore, a distinctly good thing.A lot of things the Summoner class is, a class for newbies is definitely not one of them. It's an extremely complicated class full of exceptions to standard rules. It's quite probably one of the WORST classes to give to a newbie player or for a newbie GM to master. It belongs in the Advanced Player Guide for good reason. I tell all newbies whether they are players or GM's... stick with the CRB only until you've got a good comfort level with it before you add more complexity to your game.
I agree, with one caveat. A summoner (particularly a synthesist) is not a difficult character to *run*, it is however extraordinarily difficult to *create*. Hand a pair of synthesist sheets (with/without eidolon) to any player at a convention, and they'll likely have no trouble. Ask them to build the synthesist and determine what should go on each of those sheets...that's a different story.
FWIW, the big disadvantage regarding sleep for a synthesist (or any summoner) is how long it takes to recover. Knock out and then heal a fighter, and he is ready to go next round at full capacity. Do the same for a summoner, and he is likely at reduced capacity for the rest of the fight, unless he wants to spend 10 rounds rebuilding.
When I was running a systhesist, I kept waiting for my GM to have an encounter while we were in camp and I wasn't on watch, a summoner's most vulnerable time. It never happened...
A lot of things the Summoner class is, a class for newbies is definitely not one of them. It's an extremely complicated class full of exceptions to standard rules. It's quite probably one of the WORST classes to give to a newbie player or for a newbie GM to master. It belongs in the Advanced Player Guide for good reason. I tell all newbies whether they are players or GM's... stick with the CRB only until you've got a good comfort level with it before you add more complexity to your game.
Still not buying it. Someone new to the system is going to have the same intellectual hurdle with either the core classes or any others. They still need to jam a large amount of rules down their throat and the combat, environment and additional rules sections of the CRB apply to everyone. It's only a matter of which set. The only difference in the case of the synthesist is that you need to cozy up to the bestiary and GMs get super defensive real quick once you touch their precious bestiary.
I don't really agree. It's far easier to learn the rules to a fighter or barbarian than it is any flavor of caster... much less most of the 3/4 caster hybrid classes
And the Summoner (synthesist or otherwise) is one of these... a hybrid. And a particularly nasty one at that.
Additionally, we have to take into account player savvy. According to most people in this thread, a new player (once the summoner character is created) can very easily wreck-face by employing simple, straight-forward tactics combat after combat. The thing with summoners, though, is that they're a strong caster in addition to what the eidelon brings. If a player is playing at a higher tactical level, they can switch from being a melee wrecking ball to casting some seriously-painful debuffs to laying down some of the game's best buffs (at early levels, no less).
So, the class becomes that much better in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing. They can perform in the role of a fighter or barbarian, but then has the capacity to back off and perform in any number of other roles WITH LITTLE ADDITIONAL EFFORT REQUIRED (if built correctly).
So it's a class that – because of it's flexibility – can bring exponential returns in the hands of a savvy player. Not the case with a barbarian or fighter.
And having made them myself I can tell you their role is as much of an either/or as any other class or you're a guy who's mediocre at everything, again, no different than any other class.
So new people have to start with only barbarians or fighters? Cool. Now expect them to pour over the feats and come up with at least a half way decent list. It's still a f-ton of options to go over and rules to keep in your head as the new guy when you actually play the character.
GM's who know how the class works dont care about them. unless they are elf or half elf, which is a bad choice for a summoner as far as powergaming goes, any gm knows that a simple sleep spell will negate the edilon. yes a level 1 spell that effects 4hd worth of characters will knock a synthesist out of the equation. if they were dumb enough to dump there physical stats they are as good as dead when the BBEG comes over and full attacks them while they are "naked".
but then again thats true for all summoners.
anyway a synthesist is a very scary sounding thing when the players is spouting "he has 4 attacks hes huge sized and wields great swords and hit for 800 million damage per round". then his gm says "make a will save" and the synthesist rolls his 5 and goes "... 10?" and now he is either MC'd or asleep and he is either killing his teammates with that that 800 million damage per round, or his edilon goes poof.
and unfortunately ikarinokiami a synthesist edilon does out perform a fighter in every way.
if they face a "trash mobs" with high HP and with low ac and no dr and the eidolon is allowed to pounce all over the place, I have to concede they will outperform a fighter, just as a barbarian in that situation would.
And having made them myself I can tell you their role is as much of an either/or as any other class or you're a guy who's mediocre at everything, again, no different than any other class.
How so? I'm not suggesting a synthesist can cover every role in a partying group. I'm suggesting they can compete alongside a fighter or barbarian for the melee role, then (because they can afford to buy up a huge charisma score) back off when the situation calls for it and use some pretty potent spell options.
And yes, a synthesist who dumps his physical scores is going to be in dire straits if his opponents are able to catch him without (or remove from play) his eidelon. But that's not a "you're screwed" situation. He still has his summoning SLA's as well as spells to fall back on. And if you're willing to use some of your skills/feats/traits to support these "you're screwed" situations, you can be pretty damn useful.
LIke I said, a savvy player can use these to continue to be a battlefield presence even when things go against him.
So new people have to start with only barbarians or fighters? Cool.
Is that what I said? I thought I was talking about how complex those different classes were, and how many rules they had to learn to play fighter or barb versus a summoner. Any new player willing and able to learn whatever rules are necessary should get to play whatever they want.
Now expect them to pour over the feats and come up with at least a half way decent list. It's still a f-ton of options to go over and rules to keep in your head as the new guy when you actually play the character.
Agreed. And the summoner (especially the synthesist summoner) will need to pour over that same amount of feat options in addition to learning the miliosn of complexities of the summoner class itself as well as spell-casting rules, options, and what-not.
I'm not saying I'm some genius. From the view of the new guy I'm going to be cramming a lot of info into my brain very quickly. It's just a matter of which set of info that is. The synthesist just requires that you read the entire description to each evolution instead of quickly skimming and trying to make snap "yea/nay" decisions as you power through a build. Even building a fighter you need to evaluate how many feats before making a decision? Spells for any caster? Building a pathfinder character is no small task no matter what you build.
It'd be no different than a barbarian selecting rage powers before they're of sufficient level. It's exactly the same so that's why I call b.s. You have to read each power to know when you can take it and there are limits to what you can take. Or a witch selecting major or grand hexes accidentally at level 1. Or a wizard trying to cast spells because they didn't read the "must be of sufficient level" clause to spells you can cast. The same is true of any class as they all tier features based on level and other prerequisites.
It's not like you have to do advanced algebra or calculus to figure out if you can take an evolution or not. Once you get the base eidolon figured out it's a simple "can I take this evolution? yes, no" and you can only select so many as your evolution pool economy allows.
As someone who has run both a summoner and synthesist summoner, I have to say that IN PLAY the class is extremely simple to run. This is especially true for the synthesist.
They are spellcasters, but they are only partial spellcasters. Their spell lists are very simple compared to a Wizard or Cleric.
I would also argue that the melee aspect of the summoner class is simpler than standard melee. After all, unless you use secondary attacks all of your attacks will have the same attack bonus. You also usually won't have as many weird feats and abilities to worry about like cleave, lunge, and smite since you generally just crash into things with pounce.
Honestly, one of the main reasons why I may not run a synthesist again anytime soon is because they're a bit too simple to run in combat. You rarely have time to cast spells and you have very few special actions that you can take. It is probably on par with an archer when it comes to simplicity.
So yea, the class is just fine for a newbie if you help him build the eidolon properly. Of course, a plain old barbarian or fighter would be even simpler, but you can't always restrict a new player to the simplest classes.
I can agree with you that in principle its the same. In practice, though, the level of complexity is much higher for the summoner than for the fighter or barb.
Fighter: which feats do i want? which feats do I qualify for? prioritize and choose based on concept.
Barbarian: which rage powers do I want? which rage powers do I qualify for? prioritize and choose based on concept.
Summoner: which base eidelon do I want? what size do I want it to be? Is that possible given my character's race? Calculate evo pool (from base, feats, and racial options). Based on that and eidelon choice and size, what evo's do I want? Which ones do I qualify for? Choose evo's based on desired play-style and concept. Now, based on that, and with the difference between my intended role 'in-eidelon' and 'out of eidelon', what feats do I qualify for? which ones do I want? Now I get to pick spells, based on what is available and what will be most useful based on my intended concpt and play-style.
I wouldn't say those are the same, and offers a lot of opportunity to make a mistake.
I was just talking about in play complexity. After all the hours and hours I spent leveling my synth and summoner I would never argue that building those monstrosities was simple. I was just saying that if a new player had a low level synth handed to him and had a few things about how to run it explained he wouldn't have a tough time running it.
Why do DMs frequently ban Synthesist Summoners?
Because DM's are playing a different game system that doesn't have Synthesist Summoners.
=)
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Just kidding.
Actually no one has tried one in our group because they just seem so complicated. That actually leads to one of the reasons another group banned them. Almost no one seems to be doing it correctly. Not intentionally cheating, just getting confused.
In my friends group he said that every single time a synth seemed to be doing too well, he would review what the player had and would always find that one or more rules were over looked. Not just one player. Not just one time. Every single time they checked with all 3 of the players that tried it, it was messed up. No one wanted to be a rule nazi and have to audit another players build or make every synth a committee project. So they just cut it out of their world.
He wasn't particularly worried about the power, just the complicated wierd system seems prone to getting screwed up.
I was just talking about in play complexity. After all the hours and hours I spent leveling my synth and summoner I would never argue that building those monstrosities was simple. I was just saying that if a new player had a low level synth handed to him and had a few things about how to run it explained he wouldn't have a tough time running it.
Sorry, I was responding to Buri. I should have made sure that was obvious.
I'm intrigued by your experience with the synth. Though I wonder if the simplicity you experienced was based on your playstyle of the synth... not necessarily the synths' capacity. (not intended to be any kind of criticism, just an observation)
Other than a few specific casting feats, my other feat choices normally go into making my synth's melee capabilities more robust… lunge, step up, combat reflexes, etc. So while it'll never have the full combat feat arsenal of a fighter (obviously), he could still have some options.
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What I'm not getting is why should I add Synthesist Summoners? Between the amount of FAQ devoted to them, the concerns about their strength and about their complexity, and the simple fact that the slot they fill is not one I particularly saw as needed filling, I figured that 14 classes was enough.
No one said you have to. But if your player wants to give a shot, it is infinitely better for his morale to say "Well, let's take a look at it together," instead of "NO, SYNTHESIST IS BANNED."
It really reeks of laziness to me to say "I don't want to add this because I have to read more." You're already playing a PnP RPG. There's lots of reading to be done. A little extra won't kill you.
Are you required to know the entire rulebook back to front? Obviously not! But at least giving the archetype and the errata a look-over with the player present, and discussing how you might go about his character is very much within the bounds of what a DM should do.
Hell, you're likely to convince them not to play it if you do this, as after maybe ten, twenty, thirty minutes of trying to piece everything together, they'll be like "NAH FORGET IT."
So it's the class you can roll up the quickest with little system mastery and still be relevant? I think this makes the class a nice introduction for newbies and, therefore, a distinctly good thing.
Wow, not even close. Likely the very worse class for newbies.
We've got at least one guy for whom that was the case.
I was just talking about in play complexity. After all the hours and hours I spent leveling my synth and summoner I would never argue that building those monstrosities was simple. I was just saying that if a new player had a low level synth handed to him and had a few things about how to run it explained he wouldn't have a tough time running it.Sorry, I was responding to Buri. I should have made sure that was obvious.
I'm intrigued by your experience with the synth. Though I wonder if the simplicity you experienced was based on your playstyle of the synth... not necessarily the synths' capacity. (not intended to be any kind of criticism, just an observation)
Other than a few specific casting feats, my other feat choices normally go into making my synth's melee capabilities more robust… lunge, step up, combat reflexes, etc. So while it'll never have the full combat feat arsenal of a fighter (obviously), he could still have some options.
Ahh, sorry about that ;)
Yea, it probably did have a lot to do with the playstyle I had with the character. I essentially designed him with Dimensional Dervish build. The idea was that no matter what situation I was in or how far away I was from someone, I could pounce him and get a full attack + rend attacks in. It was just a choice between actually running up to the guy or using dimension door. The character often used dimension door so he could pounce someone he was already in melee combat with! He was often also invisible while he did this.
It was very effective, but a little boring I'll admit. It was essentially the same as an archer: full attack every round with a slight adjustment to make sure you got that full attack in.
Once long ago when I was looking for advice on a build for a new player, someone actually suggested a drow ftr 2 / rog 2 / cleric 3 / wizard 3 / mystic theurge 10 with I don't remember what god-awful combination of feats, traits, skills, and equipment.
The reasoning was that it can do a little of everything. That way the player can experience and learn everything.
We bantered back and forth a few times before I realized that while I was joking, he/she was being completely serious. That person really thought that was the best way to bring someone new into the game.
Then he ended with, it really isn't worth your time because new players almost always quit. You should only try to recruit experienced players.
I didn't know whether to laugh or cry...
What seriously annoys me is that apparently a GM who doesn't like to spend extra time on a badly designed class is lazy.
That's a moving target and means different things to different people. It's part of the system you choose to play. If you're GMing it then you should at least be familiar with it.
Which is exactly why many of us are saying that you shouldn’t be DMing it. Not worth the time & energy.
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Which is exactly why many of us are saying that you shouldn’t be DMing it. Not worth the time & energy.
IMO, the burden of memorizing in excruciating detail how the systems for a given PC work and how they interact is squarely on the player's shoulders and not on the GM.
What the GM needs is some familiarity with the basic concept and an explanation of the build by the player. Oh, and he needs to trust his player too.
I would think the synthesist would be super easy to vet by a GM as GMs interact most heavily with the bestiary and that's what they mostly get: monster abilities.
I can't see me running an AP without knowing those rules in advance.
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It really reeks of laziness to me to say "I don't want to add this because I have to read more." You're already playing a PnP RPG. There's lots of reading to be done. A little extra won't kill you.
And if I ever have a player actually WANT to play it, I may sit down with him. But since I have Rappan Athuk, Castle Whiterock, The Slumbering Tsar, The Complete Tome of Horrors, Ptlous: City by the Spire, Journeys to the West, and War of the Burning Sky sitting unread on my shelf, I'm not concerned about the synthesist right now.
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What seriously annoys me is that apparently a GM who doesn't like to spend extra time on a badly designed class is lazy.
You are lazy for not being willing to at least read it over. That's your perogative, and I won't say you're not allowed to. However, if you haven't read the damn thing, how can you possibly claim to understand that it's poorly written?
Do you take this attitude with any strange build your players bring you? "OH IT'S TOO MUCH WORK TO READ UP ON IT, NO, IT'S BANNED." Yeah, have fun with that.
If you can't handle reading over some rules/errata (that's what rulebooks and PDFs and such are for, by the way) then maybe the job of DMing for Pathfinder isn't quite for you? I hear there are plenty of splendid rules light RPGs out there. Some that fit on a single 8x11 piece of paper, even.
It really reeks of laziness to me to say "I don't want to add this because I have to read more." You're already playing a PnP RPG. There's lots of reading to be done. A little extra won't kill you.And if I ever have a player actually WANT to play it, I may sit down with him. But since I have Rappan Athuk, Castle Whiterock, The Slumbering Tsar, The Complete Tome of Horrors, Ptlous: City by the Spire, Journeys to the West, and War of the Burning Sky sitting unread on my shelf, I'm not concerned about the synthesist right now.
See, that's apples to oranges. Reading a whole AP takes significantly longer than trying to get a basic jist of the Synthesist.
You are, of course, not required to know about how a Synthesist works. If your player wants to play one (or any Summoner) then you may want to sit down with them and discuss it. If that's too much trouble, then I don't even know what to say to you about that.
Which is exactly why many of us are saying that you shouldn’t be DMing it. Not worth the time & energy.IMO, the burden of memorizing in excruciating detail how the systems for a given PC work and how they interact is squarely on the player's shoulders and not on the GM.
What the GM needs is some familiarity with the basic concept and an explanation of the build by the player. Oh, and he needs to trust his player too.
As I said earlier in this thread; Trust doesn't enter into it. Even if I completely trust someone, it doesn't mean they can't make a mistake, and of all the classes, nothing is easier to get wrong than this one.
Look, every time we have had a DM come in here and complain about a Summoner and his eidolon, when we checked the eidolons build- it was wrong. Every freaken time. Even in my own game, the summoner got his eidolon wrong, and he is a real rules lawyer.And that's just a eidolon. Combine the eidolon with the mish-mash of rules and FAQ that is the Synthistist, then you're simply gonna have mistakes. And big ones too.
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See, that's apples to oranges. Reading a whole AP takes significantly longer than trying to get a basic jist of the Synthesist.
Opportunity costs. Every thing I take the time to read is time away from other things. The time I sit down with a player to discuss the rules is time taken away from gaming. So it is certainly easier to get together with the player on non-game nights, but not always opportune.
... every time we have had a DM come in here and complain about a Summoner and his eidolon, when we checked the eidolons build- it was wrong. Every freaken time. ... Combine the eidolon with the mish-mash of rules and FAQ that is the Synthistist, then you're simply gonna have mistakes. And big ones too.
That was my point as well.