But would that explanation not also rationalize and justify men resisting women in their games and excluding them?@Samurai:
We get that you are against any form of exclusion. That is very noble and such. It is also...well foolish. Women and men...as research...and history have shown have a natural inclination to be more comfortable in a single sex enviroment for a period of time. This might be biology or thousands of years of social pressure or a combination of both. Yes we are making strives to over come it...and hopefuly we will change our natures where thing like 'Wonmen's Night' and Men's Clubs are a thing of the past. But these things take time and can't be forced.
You have also stated your opinion and have defended it very well. But people still disagree with you. Maybe it is time to agree to disagree....I mean if there are 'Women's Night' at a gaming store...or as a gaming club membership drive is the world going to truely end?
If you feel soo strongly that this idea is not neccessary than I suggest taking action. Organize a 'New Player Night' with your gaming club or gaming store. Be as inclusive as you like and than tell us how many women show up.
Actualy all the women have said they don't mind all men games. Really people move on.
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Actualy all the women have said they don't mind all men games. Really people move on.But would that explanation not also rationalize and justify men resisting women in their games and excluding them?@Samurai:
We get that you are against any form of exclusion. That is very noble and such. It is also...well foolish. Women and men...as research...and history have shown have a natural inclination to be more comfortable in a single sex enviroment for a period of time. This might be biology or thousands of years of social pressure or a combination of both. Yes we are making strives to over come it...and hopefuly we will change our natures where thing like 'Wonmen's Night' and Men's Clubs are a thing of the past. But these things take time and can't be forced.
You have also stated your opinion and have defended it very well. But people still disagree with you. Maybe it is time to agree to disagree....I mean if there are 'Women's Night' at a gaming store...or as a gaming club membership drive is the world going to truely end?
If you feel soo strongly that this idea is not neccessary than I suggest taking action. Organize a 'New Player Night' with your gaming club or gaming store. Be as inclusive as you like and than tell us how many women show up.
And would not a majority of men having that same mentality pretty much end the idea of women in gaming? Just think about what you are proposing and how badly it could go wrong. Better to just let the game be for everyone.
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@Samurai:
We get that you are against any form of exclusion. That is very noble and such. It is also...well foolish. Women and men...as research...and history have shown have a natural inclination to be more comfortable in a single sex enviroment for a period of time. This might be biology or thousands of years of social pressure or a combination of both. Yes we are making strives to over come it...and hopefuly we will change our natures where thing like 'Wonmen's Night' and Men's Clubs are a thing of the past. But these things take time and can't be forced.
You have also stated your opinion and have defended it very well. But people still disagree with you. Maybe it is time to agree to disagree....I mean if there are 'Women's Night' at a gaming store...or as a gaming club membership drive is the world going to truely end?
If you feel soo strongly that this idea is not neccessary than I suggest taking action. Organize a 'New Player Night' with your gaming club or gaming store. Be as inclusive as you like and than tell us how many women show up.
I've repeated my disagreement enough that I didn't feel like saying it again and again and have left that at "agree to disagree" pretty much, as you said. I'll probably still chime in on newer or different ideas and topics though. No, the world won't end, things happen every day in the world that I may not agree with and the planet keeps on spinning on its merry way.
4e Encounters was very much a "New Players Night" for us. We had open play, just show up and grab a pre-gen character if you didn't have one and join in. Groups varied weekly in size from 2 to 8 players (I didn't want to run with more than 8, it's a small store and no more could fit around the 2 tables pushed together). You could never tell who or how many would show up from week to week. When 5e was announced, it seemed to kill the interest in 4e. I ran 5e playtests instead of Encounters for a couple months, but the radical changes from 1 rules release to the next turned the players off. They were going to switch to Pathfinder (which I play in all our home games), but the store owner decided to return to a focus on Magic card tourneys instead which the younger kids around here really seem to go for more than RPGs.
In the little over 2 years of running weekly Encounters, I'd guess about 75-80 different new or hadn't-played-in-ages players came to the games, of which about 10% were women. They tended to be very good roleplayers, but in general less interested in the "fight of the week" style of Encounters. One woman and her husband drove from over 60 miles away each week to play because her FLGS had stopped running Encounters.
Based on my experience, the thing that would appeal most to female players is more emphasis on story and character interaction rather than fighting. Encounters, especially the earlier adventures, was very much a "let's roll some dice and have a tactical battle a week". The later adventures did begin to move toward more story, but it still wasn't a really big part of it as written. Maybe a mystery where you need to interview suspects and piece together clues would appeal more to women... something that is more interpersonal than Encounters was. Anyway, that's my 2 cents on it.
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@Samurai:
We get that you are against any form of exclusion. That is very noble and such. It is also...well foolish. Women and men...as research...and history have shown have a natural inclination to be more comfortable in a single sex enviroment for a period of time. This might be biology or thousands of years of social pressure or a combination of both. Yes we are making strives to over come it...and hopefuly we will change our natures where thing like 'Wonmen's Night' and Men's Clubs are a thing of the past. But these things take time and can't be forced.
You have also stated your opinion and have defended it very well. But people still disagree with you. Maybe it is time to agree to disagree....I mean if there are 'Women's Night' at a gaming store...or as a gaming club membership drive is the world going to truely end?
If you feel soo strongly that this idea is not neccessary than I suggest taking action. Organize a 'New Player Night' with your gaming club or gaming store. Be as inclusive as you like and than tell us how many women show up.
I've repeated my disagreement enough that I didn't feel like saying it again and again and have left that at "agree to disagree" pretty much, as you said. I'll probably still chime in on newer or different ideas and topics though. No, the world won't end, things happen every day in the world that I may not agree with and the planet keeps on spinning on its merry way.
4e Encounters was very much a "New Players Night" for us. We had open play, just show up and grab a pre-gen character if you didn't have one and join in. Groups varied weekly in size from 2 to 8 players (I didn't want to run with more than 8, it's a small store and no more could fit around the 2 tables pushed together). You could never tell who or how many would show up from week to week. When 5e was announced, it seemed to kill the interest in 4e. I ran 5e playtests instead of Encounters for a couple months, but the radical changes...
True almost all of the female, and many male, members of our club are pushing for more roleplay than combat PFS mods.
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Yes. Yes, it does. I'll just be in my bunk for awhile. ;)...Except we won't see that on a book cover. There is way too much institutionalized male homophobia for something like this not to be the marketing knell of doom....Does this work? Seriously, we haven't been able to get Seltyiel to button his shirt in years. Showoff. :)
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I have no worries that women will reach parity in the hoby especially with such passionate and eloquent members of the community as DQ, TT, and Alice M pushing things along. They just shouldn't have to do it by themselves.
Thanks. And I for one don't feel alone in this. Both women members of the community and many male members of the community have been speaking up admirably for how to make the community more welcoming, and worked hard to ward off the frankly small handful of trolls who have been either trying to derail the thread, or twist and re-word reasonable suggestions into ridiculously dis-proportioned strawmen, which they then attack with almost hilarious vigor. (I admit sometimes I have fed the trolls rather than probably more sensibly ignored them, but I hope most of my contributions to this conversation have been largely constructive.)
And then of course we have a lot of the Paizo staff, both female and male, standing up for making their community a much more welcoming place, and have made it clear they do not tolerate intolerance.
I've been an avid and active gamer for a long time now. I have experienced sexism in gaming -- from the early days when I was a kid when I was rejected as a gamer because I was a girl, to things as recent as a few years ago, when in a PBP a GM assumed it would be okay to put my character through an attempted rape scene without checking with me whether that would be okay. These things DO exist, and they must be acknowledged that they happen, and keep happening all the time, until we establish a culture as a whole that makes it clear this kind of behavior is unwelcome and is and should not be part of the gamer psyche.
That's going to take time, but it's good to see that a large number of posters here are willing, able, and ready to work toward that goal.
And I've also experienced a lot of really good and positive things, and ultimately all the moreso as time goes on. The vast majority of the gaming groups I've been in have been more than equal opportunity. The harassment and creeperism has been quite infrequent, in my personal experience (although always harrowing when it does happen). I generally feel welcome as a gamer in most table top gamer groups. (I still get weird stares in Games Workshop Stores and video game stores, but that's another subject for another time.) Most of the women I know interested in gaming are also experienced, active gamers, and I know a lot of women gamers. That is reassuring as well, and I use my experience as proof that it can and will get better.
Now, my positive experience does not discount or diminish women who've had the opposite experience, where harassment is the norm and respectful treatment is a rarity. But it is my fervent hope my positive experiences can demonstrate that it is possible for the gaming community to get better.
And at the same time, if a woman says, "I need a safe space to explore this," then the most respectful and productive answer, I fervently believe, is to create that safe space.
This here, the online frontier, will be a particularly difficult one to follow. It's a challenge because often the people most willing to hold onto an argument like a dog with a bone seem to have ample Internet time. Even if you have a lot to say but you work long hours or odd hours or in different time zones or limited Internet access, you can feel "silenced" where the person who seems to have nonstop always on access to the boards will be loudest. But that's all the more reason to remember that one who is loudest (or has the highest post count) is not always right. (And also, don't feed the trolls.) And generally, most gamer message boards are not female friendly--Paizo's one of the friendliest there is. IIRC GiantITP was usually pretty good in that way as well (I left that board for other reasons). But my experience is that often is the exception to the rule. And WHAT THAT MEANS IS, even if there's a metric buttload of women gamers out there, they're not being found and thus heard in online forums, where a lot of "buzz"--and developer feedback--happens these days.
So maybe REALLY, the focus should be on "how do we make the ONLINE gaming community a safe and welcoming place for women?"
It's also hard for admins to balance letting people converse and disagree, and shutting down people who are truly making a repeated negative and hateful conversation (all the harder because Paizo has no volunteer moderators, so the boards are effectively moderated only on work days during Pacific Time working hour, something easily taken advantage of). But that balance will be found in time and we will also learn to self-moderate effectively. But maybe going back to the question of what can Paizo can do to make things more welcoming, that's something for Paizo to chew upon a bit.
(I myself have spent far too much time on the boards lately and need to go focus on the rest of my life for awhile, so if you don't see me post here again for awhile, I'm just trying to get my apartment clean and some writing done, amongst attempting to have that thing they call a "social life"... whatever that is.)
As a final note, while I generally do have a good experience, sometimes the most sexist comments I get in more majority-male groups is "you're just one of the guys." "We will make you an equal by masculinizing you" really broadly misses the point. In fact it has a lot of complicated and mixed messages folded into it (some are insulting, some are amicable, but the amicable aspects don't "balance out" the insulting ones). It also occurs to me I have not spoken against it like I should.
When we get to "you're just one of the gamers" we'll have made some additional and real progress. :)
I´m no women but i have to add some things here again.
When i meet new people or go to a group where random people are, chances that there is someone who makes me uncomfortable are possible. That might be a man or women, because it totally depends on the personality.
IT doesn´t make me not go somewhere. That said, i live somewhere where being polite and friendly to every person is seen as the adequate norm and most people stick to it. If there is someone behaving different chances he/she pisses off or alienates others too are high.
I´m not sure if men and women feel much different there. Now if a women is reluctant to go to a public event because there might be more males or no other females at all despite her being interested in what´s going on there, that would be either a society problem (aka you are in some pretty uncivilized country that should probably totally get bombed because it´s a rogue state not respecting human rights) or the problem lies with that women somehow. If it lies with the/that women, there might also be other men not going there for similar reasons.
Going to a home game at an unkown location with unknown people is something different and there are ways that can be handled, but again it might also cause similar unpleasant feelings in men.
In my eyes the problem lies somewhere else. In the common interests of most women and girls which lie in different fields. If i ask around here, nearly all women are reluctant to join such a game, or even normal tabletop games if they are not like the most wellknown tabletopgamenames. Not because there might be too much men or bad behaved men, but because they believe such games are not made for them or just plain bullshit and waste of time.
And exactly that is the point that needs to be changed. It´s not really inside the game either.
Now game pictures...i think Paizo makes a good job of not sexualized game pictures. Going any further there would be going christian fundamentalist. There are no big boobs, mega-cleavage or unreasonly dressed males or females as far as i have seen. Some poses are slightly sexy or proud, but that´s good, since people want to play heroes that are proud and sexy in most cases. Sexy is not the same here as being sexualized and objectified, that is an important disctinction.
Besides, even wizards and sorcerers are tall and well-trained, i didn´t see a lot pictures of men that are considered small, fat, or in some way not awesome and heroic.
And the whole rape discussion is obnoxious. If you live in a community where that is such a threatening problem that women consider not going somewhere because of it, it has nothing to do with gaming or guys that go to gaming events, but your society in general. So please take it to everyday political forums and start making a change there.
Edit: I expand the last passage to any assaults on other persons in general, but in this context especially on women. What actually directly prompts back at Jessice Prize´s interview.
Yeah nice initiative. It´s single minded.
I know the feminist stuff and i support a lot of it, because it´s true.
I still think things like that are questionable, because they are ridiculing already ridiculous things. If you don´t know that comics are unrealistic and by genre aiming at certain targetgroups, you have a problem. A big one.
That is besides the fact that many poses and role models in comics are just hilarious, artifacts of war time when "strong" and "heroic" men were propagated because they were needed to give their lives in senseless wars. (Today, women have the same rights to throw away their lives in mostly unjustified acts of violence serving no purpose than furthering the power of others who actually don´t serve the ones serving them, but that´s antoher topic.)
Now if a women is reluctant to go to a public event because there might be more males or no other females at all despite her being interested in what´s going on there, that would be either a society problem (aka you are in some pretty uncivilized country that should probably totally get bombed because it´s a rogue state not respecting human rights) or the problem lies with that women somehow. If it lies with the/that women, there might also be other men not going there for similar reasons.
Well, a lot of people would consider the United States a rogue nation.
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I´m no women but i have to add some things here again.
When i meet new people or go to a group where random people are, chances that there is someone who makes me uncomfortable are possible. That might be a man or women, because it totally depends on the personality.
IT doesn´t make me not go somewhere. That said, i live somewhere where being polite and friendly to every person is seen as the adequate norm and most people stick to it. If there is someone behaving different chances he/she pisses off or alienates others too are high.
I´m not sure if men and women feel much different there. Now if a women is reluctant to go to a public event because there might be more males or no other females at all despite her being interested in what´s going on there, that would be either a society problem (aka you are in some pretty uncivilized country that should probably totally get bombed because it´s a rogue state not respecting human rights) or the problem lies with that women somehow. If it lies with the/that women, there might also be other men not going there for similar reasons.
Going to a home game at an unkown location with unknown people is something different and there are ways that can be handled, but again it might also cause similar unpleasant feelings in men.In my eyes the problem lies somewhere else. In the common interests of most women and girls which lie in different fields. If i ask around here, nearly all women are reluctant to join such a game, or even normal tabletop games if they are not like the most wellknown tabletopgamenames. Not because there might be too much men or bad behaved men, but because they believe such games are not made for them or just plain b@~*$&@! and waste of time.
And exactly that is the point that needs to be changed. It´s not really inside the game either.Now game pictures...i think Paizo makes a good job of not sexualized game pictures. Going any further there would be going christian fundamentalist. There are no big boobs, mega-cleavage or unreasonly...
What our home group does when we want to add a new player is meet over dinner at a public place (usually the pizza parlor). That gives all of us time to talk and get to know the new person without inviting them to one of our houses, and it gives the new person a neutral location to meet and talk to us for several hours and decide if they'd like to join our group. 1 dinner isn't always enough to fully determine what kind of person or player they are/we are, but at it least gives a good indication.
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First it ONE MAN who said he would protest a women's night gaming thing...just one.The gentleman on this thread who stated that if such a thing was instituted in his area, he would show up in protest because it wasn't fair to exclude him. I can go back and find the quote if it has not been redacted by the moderators.
I would not have said this thing if it was not literally true. Thanks for your vote of confidence that I would lie or exaggerate about it.
So don't take anything posted here by a few as a representation of male gamers(or just gamers) in general think.Except that it has been a pretty good reflection of my real life experience. Actually it's been marginally better, since nobody on this thread has said they wanted to rape my character. :/
Third...is a question. Do you think that men have anything meaningful to add to this discussion? Because I am getting a very strong vibe that you don't.I'm not sure how far back on this thread you've read, but my partner and I both came out as being on the trans spectrum, genderfluid and not particularly identified with our birth gender. So that makes it kind of interesting to ask me whether I think someone male identified has anything to add to the discussion, because that would also reasonably describe me a chunk of the time. It would be kind of silly to have an issue with men, because I quite seriously considered an FTM transition before deciding that it wasn't something I actually needed. Neither gender is a very strong personal identifier for me.
Do I generally suspect that a cisgendered heterosexual person who has never even had to think about how it feels to always be the disregarded 'nobody' in a hobby that caters to a 'normal' that isn't you might need to do some extra hard thinking to figure out what the issue is? Yep. Do I think most people haven't bothered to do this thinking, because it is hard and sometimes painful, and most people will never actually...
He said 1 person said that, which was true, and you accuse him of saying you're lying? Also, I prefaced it by saying I live nowhere near Seattle, so it was merely an opinion, not something I could physically do even if I wanted.
Also, you don't know who is or isn't anything on the internet. I don't believe I've stated my sexuality here, but I will say it isn't "cisgendered heterosexual"... Other kinds of people can have strong opinions on this too. In fact, if you are on the trans spectrum, you should know all too well the anger and frustration of being labeled and excluded and stereotyped according to your outward gender.
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He said 1 person said that, which was true, and you accuse him of saying you're lying? Also, I prefaced it by saying I live nowhere near Seattle, so it was merely an opinion, not something I could physically do even if I wanted.Due to the typo I originally read it as a denial that even one person said that.
But one person is enough. Do you think there will never be a women's gaming night in your area? If there is, will you show up to protest it?
I can pretty confidently say that there would not be a women only gaming night any closer than 100 miles from me, given the size of the nearby towns and the number of female gamers in the area, yeah.
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@TanithT:
As stated before I have brain damage...it sometimes effect even my written communicates. And I should really learn to proof read my writting. I apologize for any misunderstanding. I was not calling you a liar. I was pointing out that I saw generaly support for the idea with a few detractors.
As to your experiences...yes they are horrible and I don't doubt they have happened...or any of the incidents that are told here happen. And it is horrible. If I ever saw it I would also walk away from the table and complain. As I know alot of people would.
And I have to disagree....it really does not matter why you are no what society considers to be normal it all hurts the same. It does not matter if you what your race, gender, orientation, relgion, etc. It is the same pain and frustration. When my brain damage was discovered the first doctor told my parents I would not be able to graduate grade school. I had to fight for everything in my life. Not so much my handicap but society's veiw of people with my handicap. I fought my way though grade school finally getting out of Special Ed classes and thru HS. Then in college I finally gaved up. I just could not take the isloation, the riducule...the bullies anymore. I have drifted from low income job to low income job since...fighting again maybe to go back and finish collee or get to a position where I can support myself. The thing is everybody at one point in their lives feel this pain and frustration....no one is what society is called normal. Some have it worst without doubt. But it also seems no one can acknowledge another pain. Their pain is always worst than others. This is why nothing gets fixed...or it take forever to do so because other peoples veiw points are invalid.
I guess I find it disheartening that a articulate and intelligent person such as yourself gives up.
I'd love to go to the PFS games in Sydney, but I'm in Newcastle and the 2.5+ hour drive is a bit of a drag. The VC in Sydney said in another thread that they tried to start games up here in Newwie but they didn't go well. (Probably when I was overseas last year... else I would've dragged my friends along for sure.)
When I played PFS games at GenConOz back in '09 I was usually the only woman at the table. Or even the only woman at all the tables in that session. Here's hoping that PAX Aus's PFS games aren't the same way!
Times are changing in Australia, as well as the rest of the world. When was the last time you played PFS? Do you even realize we just assigned a female Venture-Lieutenant in Wollongong?
We have quite a few female VCs and VLs that are females and I am proud to game with each and every one of them.
Michael, off topic
** spoiler omitted **
Hey wrath, as suggested, here is your faithful Brisbane Venture Captain happy to help.
Regular play in Brisbane currently is a fortnightly games at Good Games Brisbane, last Sunday of the month at Fast Break Nundah and soon to launch Sunday's @ the State Library. It would be awesome to get games up and running in Strathpine.
It would be awesome to come out and run some games/provide support/GM 101 sessions/whatever with the view to empower ongoing play. If you could shoot me an email to pathfinder_society_brisbane@creakingchair.com, we can get the conversation commenced in earnest.
I'd love to go to the PFS games in Sydney, but I'm in Newcastle and the 2.5+ hour drive is a bit of a drag. The VC in Sydney said in another thread that they tried to start games up here in Newwie but they didn't go well. (Probably when I was overseas last year... else I would've dragged my friends along for sure.)
When I played PFS games at GenConOz back in '09 I was usually the only woman at the table. Or even the only woman at all the tables in that session. Here's hoping that PAX Aus's PFS games aren't the same way!
I'm hoping that it isn't. Gender imbalance in Brisbane is huge. There are female pathfinder players out there, most of them I know of play in home campaigns. I am not a hundred percent certain why they do not attend - many of their partners do - and have been trying to get a better understanding of this. Could be time of the week sessions run, the perception of it being a boys club (which it isn't) or that, like a lot of male gamers also, they're just not that into organised play and prefer the ongoing campaign vibe.
Always open for suggestions on how to change this...
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I'd love to go to the PFS games in Sydney, but I'm in Newcastle and the 2.5+ hour drive is a bit of a drag. The VC in Sydney said in another thread that they tried to start games up here in Newwie but they didn't go well. (Probably when I was overseas last year... else I would've dragged my friends along for sure.)
When I played PFS games at GenConOz back in '09 I was usually the only woman at the table. Or even the only woman at all the tables in that session. Here's hoping that PAX Aus's PFS games aren't the same way!
I'm hoping that it isn't. Gender imbalance in Brisbane is huge. There are female pathfinder players out there, most of them I know of play in home campaigns. I am not a hundred percent certain why they do not attend - many of their partners do - and have been trying to get a better understanding of this. Could be time of the week sessions run, the perception of it being a boys club (which it isn't) or that, like a lot of male gamers also, they're just not that into organised play and prefer the ongoing campaign vibe.
Always open for suggestions on how to change this...
Well, one thing that was mentioned before was that many female gamers seem to enjoy the interpersonal role-playing part more than combat (though some women like that too). Are there any organized adventures that are mostly talking, perhaps piecing together a murder mystery by interviewing witnesses and suspects, examining the scene of the crime, etc? Maybe even adapt or frankenstein together something from Sherlock Holmes, Agatha Christie, etc. I think that may go over quite well.
I'd love to go to the PFS games in Sydney, but I'm in Newcastle and the 2.5+ hour drive is a bit of a drag. The VC in Sydney said in another thread that they tried to start games up here in Newwie but they didn't go well. (Probably when I was overseas last year... else I would've dragged my friends along for sure.)
When I played PFS games at GenConOz back in '09 I was usually the only woman at the table. Or even the only woman at all the tables in that session. Here's hoping that PAX Aus's PFS games aren't the same way!
I'm hoping that it isn't. Gender imbalance in Brisbane is huge. There are female pathfinder players out there, most of them I know of play in home campaigns. I am not a hundred percent certain why they do not attend - many of their partners do - and have been trying to get a better understanding of this. Could be time of the week sessions run, the perception of it being a boys club (which it isn't) or that, like a lot of male gamers also, they're just not that into organised play and prefer the ongoing campaign vibe.
Always open for suggestions on how to change this...
This is what i mean and it should get investigated, which is probably the only way to really find out.
Are there any organized adventures that are mostly talking, perhaps piecing together a murder mystery by interviewing witnesses and suspects, examining the scene of the crime, etc?
-Gods market gamble is pretty close.
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Let's refocus this thread: stop making accusations to other posters, and start making actual, informed suggestions on improving the gaming community as a whole—for men, women, and children.
Let's refocus this thread: stop making accusations to other posters, and start making actual, informed suggestions on improving the gaming community as a whole—for men, women, and children.
I understand you want to keep a civil environment. Not being allowed to call out sexism means that sexism gets to parade itself around as a solution.
Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Are there any organized adventures that are mostly talking, perhaps piecing together a murder mystery by interviewing witnesses and suspects, examining the scene of the crime, etc?
-Gods market gamble is pretty close.
Murder on the Throaty Mermaid
Blakros MatrimonyMidnight Mauler
Are a couple of more.
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Are there any organized adventures that are mostly talking, perhaps piecing together a murder mystery by interviewing witnesses and suspects, examining the scene of the crime, etc?
-Gods market gamble is pretty close.
Murder on the Throaty Mermaid
Blakros Matrimony
Midnight MaulerAre a couple of more.
Good, then I'd run a string of those types of adventures and promote it with "a focus on character interaction and problem solving" or similar terms (since just announcing the name or even a synopsis may not reveal the different tone to the adventures). I think that kind of stuff is good for all kinds of newer players because there's less tactical combat and more of a chance to play your character's personality, puzzling out clues and stories, etc.
Imagine this scenerio. You are a parent (do this twice once as a parent of either gender) you walk into a games shop. There are 5 tables of PFS going on. The tables are all guys and they look to be having fun.
Your children Vick and Lisa are twins around 13 years old.....
Vick wants to play.....(3-4 hours) there seem to be a lot of boys at the table his age. Do you let him?
Or
Vick is not interested and Lisa wants to play there are no females at the tables, it's 3 to 4 hours...
What do you do?
The store owner sees you hesitating about Lisa playing and says "we have an all female beginners game on thursday" You are welcome to stay and play as well or have some coffee and cookies."
"the guys here are great guys, but we are working to get a better gender mix at the tables during the week".
So why is taking steps to speed up the number of women at the tables such a bad thing?
Gender imbalance can be self-reinforcing, without any bad intent on anyone's part.
Which appears to be something that he is trying to look for ways to address. It's not ACTUALLY a boys club, in that all are welcome, made to feel welcome, and openly invited; although at this stage it's mostly guys coming so there might be a perception of it being a boys club (which it isn't) so how does he fix this?
Rather than just chip someone who is asking for help maybe you could throw him a suggestion or two?
Your orientation is not particularly relevant to the arguments you are making. It's reasonably clear you don't present as female, or you wouldn't actually be able to protest an all-female gaming night by showing up. And if you neither present nor identify as female, and you would show up to an all-female night just to make sure they didn't get to have their space, you are a jerk. That's all that is relevant.
That's some pretty breathtaking assumption work right there, and I'm not sure if I find the assumption the worst part, or the complete disregard for the gender issues a Trans player may face.
Given your views on the state of play at most tables (wouldn't want to live in your world for a moment) I can only imagine the trials and tribulations of a trans-gender (or suspected one) turning up at a gaming table!
Not safe at the hetero-white-male table, and unwelcome at the womens table too.
Compassion & understanding, we haz it.
I wish I could simply decide which parts of a persons argument were releveant based on my own prejudices and completely feel free to dismiss all else and simply label people freely.
[Footnote - I don't reckon a transgender player would have any trouble whatsoever gaming at any public table I have seen in Sydney, nor do I have any knowledge of anyone who would even bat an eyelid. This is a game where men freuqently play women, women frequently play men, and everyone (at some stage) plays a halfling]
Actualy all the women have said they don't mind all men games. Really people move on.I think what you mean is that nobody cares if you want to have a man cave game night at your house. And that is true, nobody does. I would question whether there is a need for an all male gamer's event in a public venue, because you will get that anyway quite a bit of the time without any advertising. There is no imbalance that needs addressing on that end.
Probably the most comfortable I've been at open gaming events were at LGBT Gaymer days (some of my local universities have sponsored those) and at female gamer SIGs. No creepers, no jerks, everybody there already understood what it felt like to be discriminated against and harassed and they weren't doing it to other gamers at their table.
I'm also fine at a mixed table where I know everyone is an adult and nobody is going to act like Beavis and Butthead or like that guy from the Dead Alewives skit.
The problem with an open mixed(eg, 90% male) table at a public event is that my percentage chance of having a lousy time because of someone singling me out for my visible gender or targeting my gender for rape, abuse and nonperson status is way too high for me to be comfortable. So I generally just won't bother going.
The older I get, the shorter my patience has been, so I'll just go do other things if I know my chances of enjoying myself are too low in a particular venue.
Generaly I agree with you 100%...and will say open gaming while is the most public is also the worst representastion of the hobby in general. I don't go to Cons or play the RPGA or PFS. I have also ran into alot of jerks and immature people to just consider it a waste a time. Heck I would say that the D&D 4th ed Encounters and RPGA events (I can't say about the PFS in my area as I generally ignore organize play now) are pretty much filled with people who no one else will game with because of their behavior.
Anytime I run into a new player who is going to try organize play to see how it is like I tell them that it is no indicative of RPG in general. Which is kinda of sad I believe because it could be just a useful tool to get new gamers involved...but it fails miserably. I see more people driven away from the hobby by crap in organize play that would not be tolerate in any home game I know.
And sadly, other than repeating some of the suggestions from this thread, I don't have any brilliant solutions.
Sorry I took it that you were taking a bit of a shot at the guy, so fair call :)
Yes it can a problem when he has a room full of guys, because some people will make the assumption that it is a boys club as a result.
You do get some really young guys along (occasional tween to teen) and they become the older guys playing in time, but whats the odds on getting a bunch of young girls along which in turn generates the same?
They are a HARD demographic to work with, for a range of reasons.
It's a hard sell to even open minded teen girls to convince them hanging out at a games con (usually a smelly and tired unglamorous place by day 2)is 'a great time', and the idea of a gaming store session just makes them think of the Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons.
I work with girls of this age group quite a lot, and EVEN IF you could land the suggestion to them, the concerns of their parents become the next issue. Getting permission etc would be a bunfight.
Which leaves you with 18+ girls generally, and thats a whole other conversation.
I'd be curious to know what the gender dempgraphics were in terms of game sales anyhow, I suspect it's not 50/50, so can we expect 50/50 at a table?
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So this may have been addressed, hard to say in a thread with over six hundred responses, but I thought I would add something often missed. On the first page, Jessica helpfully pointed out John's article using MMORPGs and difficulty levels as a metaphor for life. She brilliantly added that often straight white men (the difficulty setting I play on) can't even see the monsters other are fighting.
I would go a step further - we often don't realize that we are the monsters (which in this metaphor sounds remarkably harsh, but perhaps that is helpful).
My wife has, in the past few years, become much more attuned to these issues, and I have spoken with her a lot and tried to becme attuned to it myself. When you don't see the problem, it's really easy to become part of it without even realizing it. But you can see the problem and not really understand it either. There are a lot of ways to be sexist without being a learing groping chauvinist. A lot of men who think they are helping or "just treating women equally" are actually setting up different kinds of hurdles.
It bears more thought from all men in our society. It's worth talking about with people who have less privileged lives, which includes our mothers, sisters and daughters. My gut reaction, and that of many men, was to be defensive when faced with real examples of how I, who had always thought of myself as perfectly fair, had in fact been perpetuating the million little things that dissafect women every day. It's the expressions we use, the way we interact, things we were brought up to do and are hard to change in ourselves.
But those things are worth changing. Ignorance is not an excuse. And society needs to change, and those changes will require hard work to change ourselves. We all need to be playing on an equal playing field.
As Emmeline Pankhurst said: "We have to free half of the human race, the women, so that they can help to free the other half." Fair is only fair when it is fair for everyone.
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Imagine this scenerio. You are a parent (do this twice once as a parent of either gender) you walk into a games shop. There are 5 tables of PFS going on. The tables are all guys and they look to be having fun.
Your children Vick and Lisa are twins around 13 years old.....
Vick wants to play.....(3-4 hours) there seem to be a lot of boys at the table his age. Do you let him?
Or
Vick is not interested and Lisa wants to play there are no females at the tables, it's 3 to 4 hours...
What do you do?
The store owner sees you hesitating about Lisa playing and says "we have an all female beginners game on thursday" You are welcome to stay and play as well or have some coffee and cookies."
"the guys here are great guys, but we are working to get a better gender mix at the tables during the week".
So why is taking steps to speed up the number of women at the tables such a bad thing?
First, we never allow underage kids, male or female, to play without a parent/guardian/older sibling/friend present at all times. The reasons are numerous, from helping them to learn the game to discipline and more. If you leave your kid there for 3-4 hours to play a game they've never played before, what if they get bored or decide they don't like it and say they are going to walk down to McDonalds to get a bite to eat and call their parent to pick them up there? Do we forbid them from leaving? That could be considered holding a child against their will. Do we let them go? What if something happens to them on their own?
So, with the parent there, either the boy or girl could join in, and hopefully the parent too. If the kid enjoys the game, maybe the parents could have family RPG nights and invite the kid's friends over to play too.
So this may have been addressed, hard to say in a thread with over six hundred responses, but I thought I would add something often missed. On the first page, Jessica helpfully pointed out John's article using MMORPGs and difficulty levels as a metaphor for life. She brilliantly added that often straight white men (the difficulty setting I play on) can't even see the monsters other are fighting.
I would go a step further - we often don't realize that we are the monsters (which in this metaphor sounds remarkably harsh, but perhaps that is helpful).
My wife has, in the past few years, become much more attuned to these issues, and I have spoken with her a lot and tried to becme attuned to it myself. When you don't see the problem, it's really easy to become part of it without even realizing it. But you can see the problem and not really understand it either. There are a lot of ways to be sexist without being a learing groping chauvinist. A lot of men who think they are helping or "just treating women equally" are actually setting up different kinds of hurdles.
It bears more thought from all men in our society. It's worth talking about with people who have less privileged lives, which includes our mothers, sisters and daughters. My gut reaction, and that of many men, was to be defensive when faced with real examples of how I, who had always thought of myself as perfectly fair, had in fact been perpetuating the million little things that dissafect women every day. It's the expressions we use, the way we interact, things we were brought up to do and are hard to change in ourselves.
But those things are worth changing. Ignorance is not an excuse. And society needs to change, and those changes will require hard work to change ourselves. We all need to be playing on an equal playing field.
As Emmeline Pankhurst said: "We have to free half of the human race, the women, so that they can help to free the other half." Fair is only fair when it is fair for everyone.
This.
I also can't stand it that when women tell us they are uncomfortable and are trying to create a space that feels safe to them, men decide to call this out as being unfair. Instead of getting mad at the men who have made these women feel unsafe.
article using MMORPGs and difficulty levels as a metaphor for life.
Sorry I agree with you 100% but this analogy is a bad one... It implies intentional cheating.
It also says all of the achievements that you have unlocked are worth less than those of other players who played on the harder settings.
How about men got sent a preview copy of the game a month early and have the advantage of honing their skills for a month before anybody else got into the game.
No analogy is perfect. Instead of nitpicking analogies, just try to get what the analogy is saying.
No analogy is perfect. Instead of nitpicking analogies, just try to get what the analogy is saying.
Diplomacy .... Is the art of getting people to come around to your point of view with out making them angry with you.