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where the only solution to every problem is choosing between the lesser of two evilsAh, Americans and their problems. ;-)
Actually I was more thinking of Game of Thrones and the reason I don't like it, but that works too.
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Not all comic book companies reset their setting. That's a DC thing, Marvel still is running the same main continuity since the 1960's
ABSOLUTELY AND UTTERLY FALSE. If you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you. The X-books alone have changed continuity- stryfe/cable and the overmind thingy reset things radically. Spiderman has changed a bit over the years, and punisher has gone through various incarnations.
Does marvel have less resets then DC? Yes. But please peddle your nonsense elsewhere if you thing marvel hasnt reset things from time to time.
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I'm a bit late to the party - but to the people who are talking about how horrible it is that Baba Yaga is consuming her daughters to fuel her own existence...
You really need to read the Irrisen, Land of Eternal Winter supplement.
It contains both an overview of the current Irrisen, and a timeline for Irrisen's history.
Baba Yaga's daughters and the 1st and 2nd gen Jadwiga are horrible, horrible people. To the point that Baba Yaga annihilating the whole damn lot of them every 100 years is a public service.
I know the undeath thing is bad and whatnot, but Pharasma would be sending hem to Abaddon otherwise.
Anyways, I look forward to seeing how book 6 goes.
When my game finally gets underway, I do plan to have the Black Rider stress that the Old Crone repays her debts...
I thought she only nommed on her daughters, not her granddaughters and great granddaughters.
Looking at the Irrisen book - she takes the current queen and that queen's children. So the queens and 1st generation Jadwiga. 2nd gen and onwards are allowed to remain.
Not all comic book companies reset their setting. That's a DC thing, Marvel still is running the same main continuity since the 1960'sABSOLUTELY AND UTTERLY FALSE. If you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you. The X-books alone have changed continuity- stryfe/cable and the overmind thingy reset things radically. Spiderman has changed a bit over the years, and punisher has gone through various incarnations.
Does marvel have less resets then DC? Yes. But please peddle your nonsense elsewhere if you thing marvel hasnt reset things from time to time.
The overmind... what? What are you talking about? And Stryfe/Cable was not resetting continuity, it was playing with time-travel paradoxes. Which did not change the actual setting at all.
Spiderman has changed, as characters are wont to do, but the continuity has been linear without resets. Retcons like the thing with Gwen Stacy and Norman Osborn or the Ben Reilly clone arc are not resets. Although I give you that One More Day was handled poorly, which is readily acknowledged by about every fan in existance. That's what happens if the editor-in-chief hamfistedly tries to restore Peter to being single.
And the Punisher is a mess, anyway. How many times has Frank died to be resurrected by now? One time as a Frankenstein monster, IIRC.
If you are going to come in as hostile as you seem to be, at least come with facts, not blatant nonsense.
I'm a bit late to the party - but to the people who are talking about how horrible it is that Baba Yaga is consuming her daughters to fuel her own existence...
You really need to read the Irrisen, Land of Eternal Winter supplement.
It contains both an overview of the current Irrisen, and a timeline for Irrisen's history.
Baba Yaga's daughters and the 1st and 2nd gen Jadwiga are horrible, horrible people. To the point that Baba Yaga annihilating the whole damn lot of them every 100 years is a public service.
That depends heavily on if you think that bad people doing things to other bad people is totally okay, no matter how horrific it is.
And my original complaint wasn't about the poor Jadwiga Elvanna, but rather that the party is supposed to help out Baba Yaga start another cycle of horror and that has to be their motivation for the AP. Which is a price to pay to save the world from eternal winter, I suppose, but I personally think that having level 15-17 characters be forced into a "compromise with evil" ending, clearly visible from many levels earlier, is a bad thing. You can't expect many groups to go along with it.
Yeah, it just feels like a lose-lose situation for some.
And for many, that's NOT what D&D (which PF is based off) has ever been about.
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Nitpick, but being NE isn't a guarantee of being sent to Abaddon either, given reincarnation and all the other destinations one can go(through deity devotion or any other number of things). That and not all of these descendants are NE(see the LE cleric on Zon-Kuthon for example).
It still easy to see how folks would conflate working with Baba Yaga with rolling with daemons, though again I'm not so certain Baba Yaga is actually devouring souls yet, especially if we're going to be facing some of them as undead.
I have a good feeling a third option is going to be available. :)
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I'm a bit late to the party - but to the people who are talking about how horrible it is that Baba Yaga is consuming her daughters to fuel her own existence...
You really need to read the Irrisen, Land of Eternal Winter supplement.
It contains both an overview of the current Irrisen, and a timeline for Irrisen's history.
Baba Yaga's daughters and the 1st and 2nd gen Jadwiga are horrible, horrible people. To the point that Baba Yaga annihilating the whole damn lot of them every 100 years is a public service.
That depends heavily on if you think that bad people doing things to other bad people is totally okay, no matter how horrific it is.
And my original complaint wasn't about the poor Jadwiga Elvanna, but rather that the party is supposed to help out Baba Yaga start another cycle of horror and that has to be their motivation for the AP. Which is a price to pay to save the world from eternal winter, I suppose, but I personally think that having level 15-17 characters be forced into a "compromise with evil" ending, clearly visible from many levels earlier, is a bad thing. You can't expect many groups to go along with it.
Given that each and every previous Paizo AP (well, perhaps except CoT) did conclude with a "obvious and blatantly malevolent Bad and Evil Boss gets whacked, McGuffinsville is saved, no tough choices involved apart from how to divide the loot", having an AP which concludes with a shades of gray situation is a actually a great plus for me.
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Yeah, it just feels like a lose-lose situation for some.
And for many, that's NOT what D&D (which PF is based off) has ever been about.
If your D&D was full of naive stories on He-Man level of black/white dichotomy, maybe.
Mine wasn't. :) I prefer my stories more Hamlet, less He-Man. Hamlet was a hero, but he didn't "win" in the D&D sense, and the choices he made, were never of the easy variety.
I'm a bit late to the party - but to the people who are talking about how horrible it is that Baba Yaga is consuming her daughters to fuel her own existence...
You really need to read the Irrisen, Land of Eternal Winter supplement.
It contains both an overview of the current Irrisen, and a timeline for Irrisen's history.
Baba Yaga's daughters and the 1st and 2nd gen Jadwiga are horrible, horrible people. To the point that Baba Yaga annihilating the whole damn lot of them every 100 years is a public service.
That depends heavily on if you think that bad people doing things to other bad people is totally okay, no matter how horrific it is.
And my original complaint wasn't about the poor Jadwiga Elvanna, but rather that the party is supposed to help out Baba Yaga start another cycle of horror and that has to be their motivation for the AP. Which is a price to pay to save the world from eternal winter, I suppose, but I personally think that having level 15-17 characters be forced into a "compromise with evil" ending, clearly visible from many levels earlier, is a bad thing. You can't expect many groups to go along with it.
Given that each and every previous Paizo AP (well, perhaps except CoT) did conclude with a "obvious and blatantly malevolent Bad and Evil Boss gets whacked, McGuffinsville is saved, no tough choices involved apart from how to divide the loot", having an AP which concludes with a shades of gray situation is a actually a great plus for me.
Problem is, Paizo still needs to make money.
And to make that money, they need to make sure as many people as possible buy their products. This product (from the looks of it) would target a smaller audience if that was the case. It might please you and like-minded people, but if said people are smaller than the group that wants the good old save the day format, then there are visible negative effects that this decision will bring with it.
Yeah, I'm not too happy about this adventure hook either. Baba Yaga isn't really the kind of "damsel in distress" adventurers are likely to want to help.
"Please help freeing this faraway country you might never even have heard of from an evil witch by restoring the the even more powerful evil witch that has been terrorizing said country for 1400 years by proxy. Ah and besides, if you don't want to, you'll just be forced by magic to do it."
Now doesn't that sound like a great idea. I'm not sure I'd like that as a player at all.
Honestly, I prefer having the option of different endings. Like, you can have the more shades-of-gray ending, but there can be the option to end the cycle for those that are interested. More options for more folks along the beat of a different drum is always a plus in my opinion.
Honestly, I prefer having the option of different endings. Like, you can have the more shades-of-gray ending, but there can be the option to end the cycle for those that are interested. More options for more folks along the beat of a different drum is always a plus in my opinion.
I think the common argument ( which I've seen often repeated on the Mass Effect boards from BioWare ) is that having "good" and "bad" endings makes the people who chose the "bad ending" feel that their choice was worth less than taking the good ending. It's not a sentiment that I share and I am, like you, for more optional endings, but the sentiment exists.
Not all comic book companies reset their setting. That's a DC thing, Marvel still is running the same main continuity since the 1960'sABSOLUTELY AND UTTERLY FALSE. If you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you. The X-books alone have changed continuity- stryfe/cable and the overmind thingy reset things radically. Spiderman has changed a bit over the years, and punisher has gone through various incarnations.
Does marvel have less resets then DC? Yes. But please peddle your nonsense elsewhere if you thing marvel hasnt reset things from time to time.
The overmind... what? What are you talking about? And Stryfe/Cable was not resetting continuity, it was playing with time-travel paradoxes. Which did not change the actual setting at all.
Spiderman has changed, as characters are wont to do, but the continuity has been linear without resets. Retcons like the thing with Gwen Stacy and Norman Osborn or the Ben Reilly clone arc are not resets. Although I give you that One More Day was handled poorly, which is readily acknowledged by about every fan in existance. That's what happens if the editor-in-chief hamfistedly tries to restore Peter to being single.
And the Punisher is a mess, anyway. How many times has Frank died to be resurrected by now? One time as a Frankenstein monster, IIRC.
If you are going to come in as hostile as you seem to be, at least come with facts, not blatant nonsense.
Minor nitpick, but Spider-man did get a soft reboot with One More Day. I'd rather not spoil you on it, but it reset the last couple of decades of Spider-man history. Look it up.
Still, DC does have way more "Crises", to the point where Final Crisis (If I recall correctly) was a bit of a parody on that. But I quit reading American Comics because I got tired of reboots and death being a revolving door.
Honestly, I prefer having the option of different endings. Like, you can have the more shades-of-gray ending, but there can be the option to end the cycle for those that are interested. More options for more folks along the beat of a different drum is always a plus in my opinion.I think the common argument ( which I've seen often repeated on the Mass Effect boards from BioWare ) is that having "good" and "bad" endings makes the people who chose the "bad ending" feel that their choice was worth less than taking the good ending. It's not a sentiment that I share and I am, like you, for more optional endings, but the sentiment exists.
I wouldn't really call it a bad ending per se. Actually, my family would call it a Spanish Ending because in Spanish cinema, bittersweet ending are fairly prevalent. Look at Pan's Labyrinth or The Orphanage for some examples.
I think it'd be a good idea for the adventure to let the GM know about the option for the happy ending, so that they may leave clues to their players on how to destroy Baba Yaga and end the cycle of winter. And those that are okay with more shades-of-gray can enjoy that ending. Besides, it'd also leave something to Continue the Adventure. Maybe not killing Baba Yaga, since the Mythic Rules won't even be out yet, but at the very least barring her from returning, much like the Queen did.
I'll wait and see though.
Minor nitpick, but Spider-man did get a soft reboot with One More Day. I'd rather not spoil you on it, but it reset the last couple of decades of Spider-man history. Look it up.
Which is why I mentioned it and its pretty much universal negative reception. But the "reboot" only affected a few things and it was more of "Mephisto alters the reality around this particular character".
DC reboots their entire universe all the time, Marvel at worst sometimes alters a few character details. The several "Issue one" mini-series, which have tried over the years to retell the character origins of their flagship characters for a modern audience never really stick and do not alter on-going continuity.
Honestly, I prefer having the option of different endings. Like, you can have the more shades-of-gray ending, but there can be the option to end the cycle for those that are interested. More options for more folks along the beat of a different drum is always a plus in my opinion.I think the common argument ( which I've seen often repeated on the Mass Effect boards from BioWare ) is that having "good" and "bad" endings makes the people who chose the "bad ending" feel that their choice was worth less than taking the good ending. It's not a sentiment that I share and I am, like you, for more optional endings, but the sentiment exists.I wouldn't really call it a bad ending per se. Actually, my family would call it a Spanish Ending because in Spanish cinema, bittersweet ending are fairly prevalent. Look at Pan's Labyrinth or The Orphanage for some examples.
I think it'd be a good idea for the adventure to let the GM know about the option for the happy ending, so that they may leave clues to their players on how to destroy Baba Yaga and end the cycle of winter. And those that are okay with more shades-of-gray can enjoy that ending. Besides, it'd also leave something to Continue the Adventure. Maybe not killing Baba Yaga, since the Mythic Rules won't even be out yet, but at the very least barring her from returning, much like the Queen did.
I'll wait and see though.
James said earlier in the thread that they will include a Mythic stat block for Baba Yaga in the last book.
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Augh, that arc is another huge reason I really wish our Kingmaker game had continued. It was a potential thing of beauty for players willing to go the extra mile. :)
I also wish the awesome campaign journal you began had been continued. :) Is it too soon to ask for more of that for your Jade Regent campaign (also about Laori ^^)?
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I also wish the awesome campaign journal you began had been continued. :) Is it too soon to ask for more of that for your Jade Regent campaign (also about Laori ^^)?
We're(both the group I'm in and the parallel group in Asurasan's other JR game) holding off on the Jade Regent recap until everything's said and done(partially to avoid spoilage and also to get everything in order), but it's almost certainly going to happen.
As for CotCT/Laori, finally back at work on getting it fit to post now that Wayfinder submissions are wrapped up. It's...gonna require some supplementary threads it turns out. ;)
And yeah, I really miss the KM game. But I'm really excited about bringing my character from there back for Wrath of the Righteous, especially since it sounds like it's made for the goals I hoped to pull off with him. :D
Oh, believe me, I am looking forward to all of this. :)
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Not that I disagree in regards to providing optional endgame scenarios, but it could be argued that the ending (or what we assume the ending to be, based on available info) is a "restoring the balance" type of win. And while not quite as "sexy" as beating Baba Yaga to a pulp, it should still be rewarding to know that the PCs prevented the situation from encompassing the whole planet. That's a win in my book even if the mythical Demi-God manages to survive and get "away".
On the flip side, if the (assumed) ending isn't what you are your party are looking for, change it! Of course this requires waiting on the rest of the AP to come out or to plan your changes last minute when you get the final book. Ideas from the writers, I'm sure, will be available. If not in the AP itself, then here on the boards. In the meantime, start fleshing out your BBEG Baba Yaga encounter. I'm assuming B.Y. to be more powerful than Nyrissa from Kingmaker, and that's pretty scary for PCs! I'm not sure what I'll do, but I can guess my players will want to wipe the floor with her...
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One thing to consider is this: Don't tell the PCs everything. While we Game Masters know that Baba Yaga noms on her kids and grandkids, all the players know is "Baba Yaga's daughter usurped her mother, stole her power, and now plans on using that power to turn the entire world into a big ice cube that she'll rule over." The easiest way to stop her? Free Baba Yaga.
Thus once the players get to a point that they start learning what Baba Yaga does... then when they're in a position of power they can choose to say "eff this, I'm taking the Third Choice."
And really, Baba Yaga is in many ways the Lesser Evil. She took over part of a country and turned it eternally wintry, but while it appears she could have done this to the entire planet she didn't. While she isn't good, when compared to a demon lord or the like she's not evil either. She is just Baba Yaga. She is true to herself.
In short, the players are in a fairy tale. And not one of the modern ones that always ends happily. This then shows potential for a great story and a fantastic game... because sometimes even when you throw the Ring of Power into the volcano and stop the Dark Lord, you don't get your happily ever after.
Well, yes, acting to set Baba Yaga free is something most good PCs will probably balk at, and rightly so. I think paladins will have an especially hard time there, and probably need a geas for this to work out at all. So, punching her in the face at the end - literally or figuratively - will be something of a necessity to have some poetic justice. PF is in general a heroic, action-laden game and not a dark fairytale or some sort of character drama. Mind you, most real-world fairytales are quite dark, with the supernatural characters being all shades of alien and/or evil, mostly to the detriment of the "heroes". The heroes being peasants for the most parts, and not spell-slinging or sword-wielding supermen, does not help at all. This is probably a problem with using these backgrounds in the game - the usual PF solution is not quite applicable in these stories.
The setup of most APs is somewhat railroady anyways, but this is to be expected, as these stories are written to be applicable to all kinds of groups. And the easiest way to get them to work together is to force them, at least from the writers view. Of course, individual gaming groups have different needs and tastes, so you need to individualize the stories according to your tastes.
Another Latecomer's views:
Baba Yaga: Like someone said on the first (or second) page: Sometimes you have to go with the Lesser Evil against the Greater, and sometimes you have to go with the Greater Evil against the Lesser Evil that's about to F- you up right freakin' now. That said, your cooperation with Baba Yaga only goes as far as stopping the Queen B-- of Golarion, so part 6 may have an option for screwing Baba over too in the endgame or the Continuing the Adventure section.
APs and Canon: I've always seen the Adventure Paths (and the standalone/linked adventures too) as their own separate canon. That way, those who like evolving settings (such as myself) can enjoy the developing world, while everyone worried about their homebrew campaigns no longer being canon (though IMO, your campaign being outside of canon happens the moment you start it) can keep their static setting (until they get to it, at least) in the main books.
Another Latecomer's views:
Baba Yaga: Like someone said on the first (or second) page: Sometimes you have to go with the Lesser Evil against the Greater, and sometimes you have to go with the Greater Evil against the Lesser Evil that's about to F- you up right freakin' now. That said, your cooperation with Baba Yaga only goes as far as stopping the Queen B-- of Golarion, so part 6 may have an option for screwing Baba over too in the endgame or the Continuing the Adventure section.
APs and Canon: I've always seen the Adventure Paths (and the standalone/linked adventures too) as their own separate canon. That way, those who like evolving settings (such as myself) can enjoy the developing world, while everyone worried about their homebrew campaigns no longer being canon (though IMO, your campaign being outside of canon happens the moment you start it) can keep their static setting (until they get to it, at least) in the main books.
Kudos to you sir for your view on both Baba Yaga and Campaign/Adventure Path Canon, perfectly said:)
Although it is still months away, I think we can safely assume that the adventurers are going to free Baba Yaga and defeat Elvanna. While my sympathy for Elvanna is close to zero ( since bringing eternal winter to all of Golarion is her plan, after all ), my sympathy for Baba Yaga, after reading what she does to her daughters and their descendants, is even lower.
Okay, what does Baba Yaga do with her daughters and their descendants? Might as well ask, seeing as how I've long wondered about making a Winter Witch who fled Irrisen to get away from dear old Granny before it's her turn to find out just what happens when you go gallivanting off to other worlds with her.
Seriously.
In essence, she continually personifies the Maiden/Mother/Crone every 100 years. Using her own offspring as the means of setting back the clock.
So how is the information in The Witchwar Legacy reconciled with the information in this SP?
Yeah, I meant AP. Sorry, fat fingered it.
And that is pretty much the info I was looking for: why Tashana wasn't eaten.
Minor nitpick, but Spider-man did get a soft reboot with One More Day. I'd rather not spoil you on it, but it reset the last couple of decades of Spider-man history. Look it up.Which is why I mentioned it and its pretty much universal negative reception. But the "reboot" only affected a few things and it was more of "Mephisto alters the reality around this particular character".
DC reboots their entire universe all the time, Marvel at worst sometimes alters a few character details. The several "Issue one" mini-series, which have tried over the years to retell the character origins of their flagship characters for a modern audience never really stick and do not alter on-going continuity.
So just because Marvel doesn't do CoIE style universe-wide retcons, they don't do retcons? What exactly do you think a retcon is?
One thing to consider, Maybe Baba Yaga did the same thing on other primes as she did on Golarian.
Maybe she has multiple Daughters ruling multiple kingdoms, so if she misses the odd snack here or there, no major deal.